I'm sorry that every religious thread on Fark has to descend into name-calling, hate-filled diatribes by both sides.

Faith is like a warm blanket. If you have it, you want others to experience it and have one of their own.

If you don't have it, you don't understand why others need it. What I don't understand is why you want to yank away the blanket from anyone else.

There are many of us Christians who are secure in our faith and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. We try to treat others with respect and live our lives as best we can. We don't spout rhetoric, show up on campuses to call people whores and whoremongers and pronounce that everyone is going to hell.

Whether you believe in Him or not, God loves you and wants you to be happy. The choice to accept Him or not is yours.

/No one is "born right the first time."
//Scientist and a Christian
///Never handled a snake or thrown a Bible at anyone
////Addicted to slashies and constantly struggle with sin though

is executive monkey being serious?

Mekongcola

You're joking, right?

Not at all. Have you ever considered that all our modern technology fits the definition of miracles? The secular humanists tell you it is man's work, but have you ever seen men perform these miracles? There were pretend sorcerers in Biblical times, too, but back then people were smart enough to recognize their false claims and attempts to take credit for God's miracles. Today we call sorcerers "scientists," and because they have college degrees and use Latin phrases we treat their word like it was God's, believing without question as they take credit for God's miracles. Two thousand years ago they would do a dance, kill a sheep, and then take credit if it rained a few days later. Today they sell you a TV and then take credit when you turn it on to hear Sunday mass from your living room. Same thing, just more flashy today because people aren't impressed by rivers of blood anymore. They just dismiss it as iron oxide saturated silt. It's sad, but the Bible says man is born to sin and wander blind until he finds God, and the Bible is certainly right about that.

It doesn't really matter who Jesus was. He said some pretty cool things about living and carrying about other people. Past that it really doesn't matter! Sidhartha and Mohammed did as much.

Unfortunately it does matter. If people really believe that Jesus was magically conceived by God and then rose from the dead and will come back to earth someday to save all of his followers, then it is no stretch of the imagination to also think that God and Jesus command them to do their bidding here on earth. And as history has shown (and continues to show), that usually doesn't go over too well for everyone else.

--- Actually that's a good point Pincy. A friend of mine once said, "The problem with organized religion is that once it becomes organized it generally acts to maintain the existance of the organization and forgets the idealism upon which it was founded."

The fact, and it is a fact, that much of the original Bible was excluded to satisfy the needs of a monarch attempting to solidify his power base is great evidence of the bastardization of the ideals - such as you have described.

AbortionsForAll: I knew you would go there. Actually no. A river transforming from water into blood (for example) absolutely cannot be reconciled scientifically, ever.

Red tide.

Or those micro-organisms that rained down on India that looked a lot like blood.

Spontaneous emission from an underground slaughterhouse runoff tank.

So no, you're wrong.

So, what, if a river turned to blood, you'd start praising Jesus?

Or would you, perhaps, want to look for an explanation as to why, and come up with a few hypotheses?

i have a bridge to sell executive monkey

Mosey: "What do you mean why didn't I save you I sent you a boat a helicopter and a guy in a sea plane."

Heheheheheh...I love that one.

mcsestretch: If you don't have it, you don't understand why others need it. What I don't understand is why you want to yank away the blanket from anyone else.

Because some folks want to be 'right' at all costs.

the1kid: A friend of mine once said, "The problem with organized religion is that once it becomes organized it generally acts to maintain the existance of the organization and forgets the idealism upon which it was founded."

Your friend sounds like he's got a grip on things.

AbortionsForAll: A river transforming from water into blood (for example) absolutely cannot be reconciled scientifically, ever.

Except you were given examples and you said "most" were either A or B so you conveintly wrote off all of them.

You just contradicted yourself, saying "somethings science can't explain, those are miracles" and at the same time "well, there are some things science can't explain I just want to ignore and lump into ones that are hoaxes and do have explanations."

Most isn't all. By your rationale, if science can't explain it, then you have to acknowledge it as a miracle.

Every time a story like this is run, it shows the world a little bit more how farking stupid the american people are.

Stoopid. And we have absolutely no excuse.

muninsfire
You realize you just prove my point: alleged 'miracles' will do nothing to convince those who don't want to believe.

If a bona fide miracle occured, something that absolutely defies the laws of nature, then I would indeed believe.

There are many of us Christians who are secure in our faith and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. We try to treat others with respect and live our lives as best we can. We don't spout rhetoric, show up on campuses to call people whores and whoremongers and pronounce that everyone is going to hell.

Whether you believe in Him or not, God loves you and wants you to be happy. The choice to accept Him or not is yours.

Oh Your God. That you don't see the hypocrisy in your statements above is beyond surreal.

The ONLY reason that most atheists of my knowledge fight against religion so avidly is because religionists GET IN THEIR FACES AND SHOUT AT THEM and then raise HUGE amounts of money and political influence to try to control other people's lives and if THAT doesn't work quickly or drastically enough, they get VIOLENT and KILL PEOPLE.

THAT is why we fight religonists... because your whackos have taken over your houses. Keep your frikkin' beliefs to yourself, reign in your whackos by any means necessary, and we'll all get along just peachy-keen, Mmmkay?

bennifer: If a bona fide miracle occured, something that absolutely defies the laws of nature, then I would indeed believe.


I'd start looking for new laws of nature.

muninsfire

Because some folks want to be 'right' at all costs
1 - Christians who try to prove themselves 'right' without compassion aren't following His teachings at all.
2 - Non-Christians who try to prove themselves 'right' by denegrating Christians will never be successful.

muninsfire

So, what, if a river turned to blood, you'd start praising Jesus?

Or would you, perhaps, want to look for an explanation as to why, and come up with a few hypotheses?

Are we a nation of Doubting Thomases? If a river turns to blood, you fall on your knees, tear at your hair, weep and gnash your teeth and beg the Lord for forgiveness, asking him who has incurred his wrath that you might smite the offender where he stands. What are your "hypotheses?" That thousands of fish suddenly suffered massive hemorrages? That a blood factory blew up? Seriously, have some faith in your own eyes, if you won't have faith in God. All this skepticism is making our nation into a bunch of pussies. If the river is blood, it's a miracle. Jot that down in a notepad and whip it out next time a miracle happens - that's all the reaearch you need to do. Our nation would be a much better place if people just acted and believed as they are told, instead of second-guessing everything.

mcsestretch:
"No one is "born right the first time."

Actually, you're wrong. Most ARE born right the first time. You probably were too. Those that aren't either die or are saved by DOCTORS, not god.

Just thought you should know.

watshisname

I'd start looking for new laws of nature.

And I'm sure the scientists would trip over themselves in their rush to provide one, just like they invented evolution when people started doubting Genesis. You'd probably accept it without any question, just like you accept Darwinism because the scientists say so. I wonder why people choose atheism. It's no more free-thinking than Christianity; you just do what scientists say instead of what the Bible says, and why would someone choose to follow men when he could follow God?

All this skepticism is making our nation into a bunch of pussies. If the river is blood, it's a miracle. Jot that down in a notepad and whip it out next time a miracle happens - that's all the reaearch you need to do. Our nation would be a much better place if people just acted and believed as they are told, instead of second-guessing everything.

Dude, you do know that a river hasn't turned into blood, right?

I am leaning toward the notion that you are an atheist just trolling as a religious wacko.

Mosey
Suspect... are you getting my point on this? If someone says Tom Cruise is bilingual you can ask him in an interview, or find one, or whatever. That's a modern standard.

Dude! I don't couldn't find any record on whether Mark Twain picked his nose, whether president Roosevelt tied his own shoes, or whether General Grant drank his bourbon with his left or right hand.

But you'd realize these are far less important things than dying and resurrecting. We have a pretty darn good records on when and how Julius Caesar was born and died. Not so with Yeshua.

We know people said they saw him buried, the rck moved, he visited them, stigmata, etc.

Um, actually we don't. None of the eyewitnesses left any writing. Gospels' names were arbitrarily chosen and does not reflect the actual writers. Of the Gospels, two, even if they really were the authors, were not eyewitnesses (Mark and Luke).

whatshisname

good point

Pincy

Dude, you do know that a river hasn't turned into blood, right?

I am leaning toward the notion that you are an atheist just trolling as a religious wacko.

I know Satan has many names, but I didn't know that "Pincy" is one of them.

This is the kind of story that gives me hope and lets me know that we are being watched and cared for by a being with the most beautiful and perfect love imaginable. God is in Darfur and he does have a plan, sorry if most of you guys have a problem with it.

Executive Monkey
God is kind. Today his miracles help people by heating their food and amusing them with the Wayland brothers' comic antics.

OK, you had me up until you claimed the Wayans Brothers as one of God's miracles. Now I know you're trolling. If anything, the existence of the Wayans Brothers is a solid argument against the existence of God.

God bless America. And no place else.

I just took a dump that looks like jebus

bennifer: If a bona fide miracle occured, something that absolutely defies the laws of nature, then I would indeed believe.

Would you?

What comprimises a violation of the laws of nature?

Executive Monkey: Our nation would be a much better place if people just acted and believed as they are told, instead of second-guessing everything.

'scuze me, I'm kinda defending your dogma here.

Our nation would be a lot better off if people would bloody well take the time to understand each other, instead of spouting off their dogma and not listening to others. Quod erat demonstrandum.

If there was a message to taken from this event, I think it would be this. Contemporary American Christians are crucifying Christ all over again by 1) ignoring the poor and downtrodden in their suffering 2) condemning people for their perceived moral failings

and probably more stuff I am too thick to see

bennifer: If a bona fide miracle occured, something that absolutely defies the laws of nature, then I would indeed believe.

And what would qualify that? There are stories of "I have no idea how she went into remission" and "that woman lifted a 3 ton car to get her kid out from under it" often enough.

There are lots and lots of unexplained things, most of them not major enough we care. But they seemingly defeat our laws of nature. I know there have been some of those on fark news, though I don't remember them specifically (mainly because I don't think of them as miracles) just odd and unexplainable.

I mean, it is likely you would fight it, explain it with any idea presented, doubt it happened, etc, etc. Maybe it takes years, decades until you "accept" it.

I know Satan has many names, but I didn't know that "Pincy" is one of them.

Touche!

Executive Monkey: I know Satan has many names, but I didn't know that "Pincy" is one of them.

Calling someone names never got anyone anything.

Especially not 'belief'.

Manfred Richthofen

Um, actually we don't. None of the eyewitnesses left any writing.

Oh, I didn't know I was speaking to someone who was there when the Bible was written. Please educate us on what heppened that day, "Manfred Richthofen," and explain exactly how you know more about Christ's sacrifice than the writers of the Gospels. Until you give a satisfactory answer, I'm going to go with Mark and Luke over "The Gospel of Manfred Richthofen."

Executive Monkey
Jot that down in a notepad and whip it out next time a miracle happens

Trust me --- every time I whip it out, a miracle happens.

/giggity

This thread on the internet will surely change people's fundamental assumptions about the nature of the universe.

That said, Executive Monkey is one strange cat.

mcsestretch

Thank you. I agree with everything you said.

At one point I had personally tossed away all belief in 'organized religion'. I still believed in God, and in Christ, but I felt dismayed with the hypocrisy of many of those that proclaimed themselves "CHRISTIANS" louder than everyone else.

Then, after many hardships I realized that 'organized religion' was basically my church, that my church comforted me personally when I needed it the most, and that I felt a desire to live through my church, helping others. I had rediscovered the holy spirit that is the true bond of spiritual community.

/Presbyterian
//believes in science and in evolution
///Be excellent to each other! - Bill S. Preston, Esquire

Mosey

"What do you mean why didn't I save you I sent you a boat a helicopter and a guy in a sea plane."


That would be like the kid's parents sending a different person to pick him up each day and never actually meeting his real parents.

If God's going to be sneaky about it, I'm not playing.

Eidolon: This thread on the internet will surely change people's fundamental assumptions about the nature of the universe.

Out of curiousity--how do you figure that?

That said, Executive Monkey is one strange cat.

I think he forgot to take his medications. I don't recall him spouting off like this before.

Executive Monkey

And I'm sure the scientists would trip over themselves in their rush to provide one, just like they invented evolution when people started doubting Genesis.

The literal interpretation of Genesis has been rejected since the times of St. Augustine (354-430).

But you are right, scientists have nothing to do but sit around thinking up ways to debunk the Bible. That's what they do all day long.

God, some people just lead sad existence.

Fellate O'Fish

Trust me --- every time I whip it out, a miracle happens.

Is that what your mom tells you?

God is in Darfur and he does have a plan, sorry if most of you guys have a problem with it.

I'll be sure to pass on your apology to the people of Darfur.

Mosey
bennifer: If a bona fide miracle occured, something that absolutely defies the laws of nature, then I would indeed believe.

And what would qualify that? There are stories of "I have no idea how she went into remission" and "that woman lifted a 3 ton car to get her kid out from under it" often enough.


The remission thing is just argument from incredulity.

You know what would do it for me? Would convince me I saw a miracle? A violation of the Law of Conservation of Mass.

Although, to be fair, all that would really mean is that the law was wrong.

Manfred Richthofen: Dude! I don't couldn't find any record on whether Mark Twain picked his nose, whether president Roosevelt tied his own shoes, or whether General Grant drank his bourbon with his left or right hand.

But you'd realize these are far less important things than dying and resurrecting. We have a pretty darn good records on when and how Julius Caesar was born and died. Not so with Yeshua.

Doesn't matter. If the small things why not the parge things? Remember Jesus was a criminal with a cult at the time, not a billion person religious figure. Julius was a far greater figure at the time than Jesus.

When was Agutsus the 5th who lived three houses down from Ceasar born?

Yeah, executive monkey can't be serious... I shoulda realized based on his name. "Executive Monkey" reflects a cynical mind.

Screw you executive monkey for manipulating me into replying to you ;p

Pincy

Hah. Yeah. That pretty much sums it up.

Sunny Ray
Is that what your mom tells you?

Meh, not bad. I give you a C+ for the combination of brevity and lack of originality.

mcsestretch
Addicted to slashies and constantly struggle with sin though

Why not just sin and not worry about it?

muninsfire

The example explanations you gave for a river turning into blood are in fact examples of a river gaining the appearance of blood. If we are merely talking about red tide, then no miracle has taken place.

I'm talking about: A river full of water becoming a river that is full of blood (samples of which can then be examined under a microscope and verified as actual blood).

wh0mprat: You know what would do it for me? Would convince me I saw a miracle? A violation of the Law of Conservation of Mass.

Although, to be fair, all that would really mean is that the law was wrong.

So in other words, a miracle would do nothing to convince you unless you'd already made up your mind to believe?

/....like I've been saying........?

***and if that were to happen, I would instantly be the most devout drone evar.