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(LA Times)   Bush admits that comparison of current Iraq situation with '68 Tet offensive "could be right." So cheer up, we'll only be there for another seven years   (latimes.com ) divider line
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4076 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Oct 2006 at 9:00 AM (9 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-10-19 03:59:23 PM  
bake420

I have no illusions about our linked economies. None whatsoever. Perhaps you can sense my frustration.
 
2006-10-19 04:04:04 PM  
Lard_Baron

dittybopper: In fact, 1942 was a particularly dark year.

Nov 23rd Stalingrad pocket created.
Nov 2nd El Alamein.
Two huge defeats for Germany. 1942.
It was a year the tide turned.
You fail at History.


You fail at reading comprehension. From my previous post:

It wasn't until the very end of 1942 that good news started to roll in, like the Soviet victory in Stalingrad and the Second Battle of El Alamein. Even then, it wasn't equivocably good news.

Meanwhile, the Battle in the Atlantic still hadn't decisively turned: That wouldn't happen until the Spring of 1943. The Atlantic was the decisive battlefield for the entire European and African theaters: If the British and Russians couldn't get American goods, they were going to lose. The defeats at El Alamein and Stalingrad were reversible, if Germany had been able to choke off the food, guns, trucks, tanks, planes, and bullets coming from America and heading for Liverpool, Murmansk, and Alexandria. Obviously, that didn't happen, but it nearly did. Had the development of the Electroboots happened a couple of years earlier, the invasion of Europe would have been postponed. The Soviet Union would have been crippled by a lack of trucks to transport their troops, limited the amount of pressure they could apply to the Eastern Front. The technology was available: The British R-Class boats of WWI, while small, had comparable submerged speed.

Your knowledge of WWII is shallow, at best.
 
2006-10-19 04:06:25 PM  
whatamatter, Sunny? Two posts from me today you've ignored. that's not like you. can't hack it anymore?

This is real tasteful, btw:
Are you as concerned about the innocent children being blown up in the War on Iraq as you are about the innocent womens who may be offended by the term "biatch slap?"

I'm sure Jesus is laughing it up too about the women, children and elderly civilians we've burned, maimed, paralyed and killed in Iraq, right? Makes for funny comparative contrasts and metaphors! woohoo - burn babies burn!
 
2006-10-19 04:10:17 PM  
Sunny Ray: That is why I work so to help keep Liberals from getting elected

Fark me!...and if the Liberals where as bad, you'd still say
"Once the (Liberal) President made the decision to fight for our Freedom, it was up to every American to have his back and pray for Victory"?

No. You'd castigate them, but because Bush is Republican you give him a pass. Wake up mate. This isnt a Repub/Dem issue. Its a competence issue.

/Your heart is not in the right place after all.
 
2006-10-19 04:11:54 PM  
Lard_Baron

Sunny Ray:
I know that you think mean well and that your heart is in the right place, but please stop to ruminate about what having a bungling incompetent for a leader does for our troops.


OK, so is George W. Bush a bungling incompetent, or an evil genius? Because I have heard both, and quite frankly the two are mutually exclusive.
 
2006-10-19 04:12:07 PM  
Bhopper

Sorry about the slight, it wasn't intentional. Funny you should choose that quote from one of my posts to try to "get" me. Very funny to me.
 
2006-10-19 04:13:47 PM  
The way congress spends money I thought Liberals were elected.
 
2006-10-19 04:13:49 PM  
as a public service I'm gonna go ahead and be a tattle tale.

Sunny Ray

has outted himself as a troll more than once. he/she has even participated in discussions without the troll mask in which he/she leans left.

sorry fella, honestly you got me a few times too. so there!

/you're welcome
 
2006-10-19 04:14:18 PM  
Lard_Baron

If a Democrat President had to go to War to protect our right to worship Jesus, I would definitely back him and support the effort.
 
2006-10-19 04:20:39 PM  
unexplained bacon

Now why did you have to go do that, when they could have read this from this thread:

2006-10-19 11:34:50 AMSunny Ray

newmoonpuppyhead

I'm with you, dawg. The continued support for the right-wackos that our driving this country is worrisome and disheartening. It is amazing and pathetic. At least they are easy to mock and ridicule. That's worth something. Isn't it?


/They're probably just goofin' too. At least I hope so. I just gave then an out in case they weren't.
 
2006-10-19 04:21:37 PM  
I'm not trying to "get" you, Sunny. Just pointing out, as I've done before, how it's impossible for you to reconcile your support for this war with Christ's true teachings.

Eventually, when God asks you why you so ardently supported the murder of so many innocents, I wonder what you'll say?
 
2006-10-19 04:24:36 PM  
I love Sunny Ray and have been a fan for quite some time.

I'm going to get some t-shirts printed, buttons made, and graffiti me up a mural somewhere in homage.
 
2006-10-19 04:25:32 PM  
dittybopper: Your knowledge of WWII is shallow, at best.

Sorry, I've dent yuor pride. I stopped reading at the "1942 was a particularly bad year" point because it wasnt. You yourself admit it was the turning point year.

To end on a friendly note. I recommend this.
 
2006-10-19 04:28:27 PM  
Sunny Ray

I know it

well, honestly my compassion for the wasted time on the part of your victims out weighed my tendency to let the game continue.

I'm not a very good troll so I've gotta get my kicks somehow.

BACON SMASH TROLL! HAHA!

/I'll probably keep my yap shut next time though, so you got that goin' for ya.
//you're just gonna start a new account and troll me rotten now aren't you?
 
2006-10-19 04:29:11 PM  
old and busted: stay the course

new hottness: maybe this isn't such good idea after all

www.uploadfile.info

/dur
 
2006-10-19 04:30:40 PM  
dittybopper: OK, so is George W. Bush a bungling incompetent, or an evil genius? Because I have heard both, and quite frankly the two are mutually exclusive.

As a military leader he's proven a bungling incompetent.
That made it clearer for you?
 
2006-10-19 04:31:54 PM  
unexplained bacon:
Thanks mate. goodbye Sunny ray.
 
2006-10-19 04:33:13 PM  
Here we are in Iraq. There is no doubt the war is not going well.

BUT - Does Bush send in more troops to take care of the problem? No.

Does he take some troops out to see if, in fact, their presence is making things worse? No.

It's stay the course that isn't working 0 that some people warned would be the case 2 years ago.

Support the troops? yes. Support Bush war? No. It's a plan that has failed.
 
2006-10-19 04:33:25 PM  
"People are increasingly of the view that the war is not succeeding," said Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center. "The recent spike in casualties can only be worsening public opinion."

DUH.

Just maybe, the "recent spike in casualties" has something do with public opinion? Those dead soldiers do kind of color MY view of the war, since I have family somewhere in Iraq right now. And casualties are increasing since we "stepped things up" to curb violence.

WHAT?

But, hey, we're killing more of them than they are of us, so we must be "making progress", right? I mean, the fact that our dead are soldiers and their dead are civilians simply means we haven't trained enough of their soldiers yet.
 
2006-10-19 04:33:46 PM  
unexplained bacon

Maybe, I will. As soon as I quit blushing over Soup4Bonnie's endorsement.
 
2006-10-19 04:36:41 PM  
Lard_Baron

goodbye Sunny ray.

Do you mean that in a permanent sort of way? Or, just a kind gesture to let me know that you are leaving the thread?
 
2006-10-19 04:40:41 PM  
what should really piss people off is the fact that it seems as though even bush (finally) is beginning to understand that staying the course isn't working, but he's gonna let this go for a bit longer so he wont hurt the republicans running for congress.

how would you feel if your loved one was one of the people that died during that politically motivated gap between realization and action.
 
2006-10-19 04:44:04 PM  
Let's look at Bush invading Iraq.

Do people here believe that at the time of the Iraq war, that N Korea had less of a nuclear weapons program than Iraq? Or that Iraq had the capacity that N Korea had to launch a WMD? Yet it was Iraq that was invaded.

Does anyone believe that Iraq was futher along than Iran in WMD production? Yet we invaded Iraq.

Why is that bin Laden can hide in Pakistan and not a peep out of Bush about it?

No matter how this is viewed Iraq was an old score to settle from the Bush Sr cronies.
 
2006-10-19 04:45:35 PM  
especially if the reps retain congress I expect bush to try a balls out approach to iraq before any sort of 'phased withdrawal' is given a shot.

If he doesn't to me that would mean that even he never believed this war was important for america. I know it wasn't, but I'm honestly not sure whether or not bush believes his own bullshiat.
 
2006-10-19 04:47:20 PM  
dittybopper: Thing is, people in the US didn't know that at the time. All they saw were images of intense fighting, and Walter Cronkite claiming that it was a quagmire with no end in sight.


Walter Cronkite was absolutely right.

Yes, Tet was a military defeat for the VC. It doesn't matter, because the Vietnamese were willing to keep dying and we weren't. And why should we have been? It wasn't our country, and we had no vital national interests at risk.

Fools who say, "We coulda won!" can't even describe what winning would have looked like. That's how far we were from ever winning that war.
 
2006-10-19 04:49:28 PM  
ya know, I kinda feel bad about outting you ray. though you were the one who originally outted yourself, in this thread you were making a decent proxy for a real pro-war farker. as pro-war farkers have become very rare that's something fark is now in need of.

look at rnld's question. there's no one to tear into that with wholehearted bush logic.

/me and my big mouth.
 
2006-10-19 04:51:50 PM  
HEY! LURKERS!

I'd bet one of our favorite old time pro-bush farkers is reading this thread but just doesn't have his heart in the fight anymore. come on! is that anyway to show your support?

speak up! what's going on in bushland? I'd honestly like to know
 
2006-10-19 04:57:56 PM  
I take comfort in the fact that most Americans disapprove of the war. But it saddens me that there aren't more calls for change. And it horrifies me that people still rush to the defense of the administration over the war. Or the Military Commissions Act. Or Abramoff. Or Plame. Or Foley.

By the by, since politics.fark refused to post anything about the Military Commissions Act:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/10/18/countdown-special-comment-dea​th-of-ha beas-corpus-your-words-are-lies-sir/
 
2006-10-19 05:03:05 PM  
img289.imageshack.us
 
2006-10-19 05:04:17 PM  
pendy575: The US military will be there to help stabalize the country...the oil will provide economic security. Allow the populace to particpate in this and give them the opportunity to improve their condition (and their kids)through education and entrpreneurial activity and you will see success.

Works every time it has been tried.



I wonder why it wasn't tried in Vietnam?


I_C_Weener: Hey world. If you don't like the U.S. actions, do something about it. Otherwise, STFU.

So you're okay with what the terrorists did on 9/11? I mean, they did something about it, didn't they?


dittybopper: OK, so is George W. Bush a bungling incompetent, or an evil genius?

He's an evil bungling incompetent.
 
2006-10-19 05:04:52 PM  
unexplained bacon

HEY! LURKERS!...

hear hear! excellent point! I was told repeatedly that I hated my country, I didn't support the troops, I was letting terrorists win, I didn't belive in "spreading democracy" and so fourth. I was tarred and feathered as a pinko/commie/libtard/hippe, has sand thrown in my virtual face for years here.

WHERE ARE Y'ALL NOW? should we name names??


/ in real life received the "I'm sorry, you were right" speech from a good friend last week. We had fought viciously over this war since it started...
 
2006-10-19 05:10:00 PM  
I'm all for a strong military and I do believe we should employ its use when the situation is warranted, but I am just dumbfounded by people who actually defend the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam war and especially the war in Iraq.
 
2006-10-19 05:32:17 PM  
coder0012

I'm all for a strong military and I do believe we should employ its use when the situation is warranted, but I am just dumbfounded by people who actually defend the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam war and especially the war in Iraq.

I have no problem with a strong military, but having a military like ours is a big responsibility

I would love to see some sort of legislation come from this mess. something that makes it a lot more difficult to get our military involved in these sort of situations.
 
2006-10-19 05:33:05 PM  
10 U.S.C.311

No conclusive link has been able to attach Iraq with 9/11.

No, Fox News is not a conclusive link.
 
2006-10-19 05:37:17 PM  
unexplained bacon: I would love to see some sort of legislation come from this mess. something that makes it a lot more difficult to get our military involved in these sort of situations.

that's the problem we frequently have w/ our government.

problems are required to be fixed by those who caused the problems in the first place.

i wouldn't hold your breath.
 
2006-10-19 05:39:15 PM  
I heard it today...

Still can't believe it...

Someone on the news said Bush has a "secret plan" to end the war.

Recycled from Nixon, who won a presidency with that slogan... different war, same shiat
 
2006-10-19 05:44:11 PM  
I would hate to be the guy that has to try to right the trainwreck in Iraq and mend fences with countries that used to respect us.
 
2006-10-19 05:56:01 PM  
Years from now, a small child will look to his father and would ask: What's Iraq?

/kinda like imagining the possibilities and what-ifs of history
 
2006-10-19 06:42:42 PM  
Dialectic: Years from now, a small child will look to his father and would ask: What's Iraq?

Father:

It's that war we're still fighting son, and President Bush says that soon it will be ALL over...
 
2006-10-19 09:21:16 PM  
Victory for the democrats I guess. Great job undermining the war effort.
 
2006-10-19 10:28:11 PM  
dittybopper said:

The British defeated the Boers back 104 years ago. They didn't kill whole villages, rape women, and crucify religious leaders.


Actually, yes, they did.

The British invented the "concentration camp" during the Boer War. They herded 90% of the rural Boer population into camps, and then slaughtered those still outside the camps.

The ones inside the camps suffered 30% to 50% mortality rates from disease and starvation.

Hitler got the idea for his concentration camps from the original British idea that had been so succesfull in ending the Boer insurgency, and then added the minor embelishment of gas chambers and ovens to speed up the process.
 
2006-10-19 10:31:48 PM  
the_great_below said:

Victory for the democrats I guess. Great job undermining the war effort.


Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If only people had BELIEVED harder, and WISHED harder, then Bush's plan for Iraq would have been a huge success.

I bet you hate those Democrats for not wishing hard enough.

((You = Moron.))
 
2006-10-19 10:45:25 PM  
The buck stops, it seems, at the Democratic party, regardless of who is in control of the Presidency and both houses of Congress. Regardless of how much advice from the people now pointing out the resultant follies proved itself correct but was at the time ignored by those in control.

Shameless. Utterly shameless...and as if to exclaim their shamelessness even more loudly, they have the audacity to accuse those of us who are trying everything we can to save all this innocent life from the machinations of morons of celebrating their deaths.

It's really a surreal time and place to be living, whether you realize it or not at the moment.
 
2006-10-19 10:57:08 PM  
dittybopper: I actually hope it is like the Tet Offensive, because Tet broke the back of the VC. After Tet, the Viet Cong didn't exist to any significant degree. While a political victory for Vo Nguyen Giap, it was a military disaster with casualty rates of up to 90%. Giap has stated in interviews that Tet was ordered for political purposes, to get rid of the VC, who were politically more independent than the NVA, and to shake the resolve of the American People. It was a success on both counts.

Thing is, people in the US didn't know that at the time. All they saw were images of intense fighting, and Walter Cronkite claiming that it was a quagmire with no end in sight.

I should certainly hope that we are smarter about this kind of thing today, having had it pulled on us once before, but I fear that a great number of people haven't learned some of the most important lessons of recent history.


Geez man, that requires more than superficial analysis. Now THAT is wasted on 90% of the people here.

/but you ARE right
 
2006-10-20 01:41:45 AM  
knobmaker: He's an evil bungling incompetent.


yes, that about sums it up.


I hope he feels deep deep shame when we are lifting americans off the roofs of buildings in the Green Zone and leaving our allies in Iraq to the mercy of the civil uprising.
 
2006-10-20 03:07:44 AM  
All they saw were images of intense fighting, and Walter Cronkite claiming that it was a quagmire with no end in sight.

Walter Cronkite ("The Most Trusted Man in America") was right.
2 months after Tet and after Johnson was dealt a reality kick in the ass for his rosy senerios in Viet Nam removed himself from the Democratic ticket for president. Nixon was then able to buffalo the people with his "peace with honor" and his "secret plan to win the war".

The lesson from Tet was that our government and it's generals
lied. They told the people that this was an rag tag insurgency that could be defeated militarily. Although Tet was a disaster for those fighting allied forces it proved that they could mount a coordinated offensive in the entire South something that the Pres. Johnson and his commanders never imagined. The nearly 5000 allied dead and the call up of nearly 250,000 US soldiers to reinforce the existing deployment was seen in the US as a desparate attempt to save a failed policy...it was.
We cannot win this war in Iraq. The government of Iraq just as the government of Afghanistan is one of name only. They have no power outside of the Green Zone in Iraq and outside of Kabul in Afghanistan. We could add 250,000 troops as Johnson did but it will not win this war.
We created this mess. We are not going to solve Iraq's problems by keeping 14 "enduring bases" in Iraq or bombing
them back to the stone age. We need to leave. Give billions in reconstruction aid to the government(s) that form but forget controlling their oil(it WAS about the oil you know).
Turkey isn't going to be happy... they will have to deal with a Kurdish struggle in their country. Iran will gain a foothold in southern Iraq and Syria will join with the Sunnis.

Bush this is your cluster f*ck. We had the world behind us after 9-11 and you threw that goodwill down the toilet.
The sooner Bush and Co. is out of here, the better. Tomorrow wouldn't be too soon.
 
2006-10-20 03:27:15 AM  
Old. Still good.


punistation.fuyucorp.biz
 
2006-10-20 03:37:12 AM  
10 U.S.C. 311 actually comes very close to making a serious point. All he has to do to see it is open his eyes:

In one breath George W. Bush will insist that Iraq was invaded to save/protect the Iraqi people and in the next he will proudly proclaim that Iraq has become the central front of the 'war' on terror (thus keeping it away from U.S. shores).

So what's it to be? Did he seek to save the Iraqis or did he seek to put them in harm's way in order to keep Al Qaeda out of the shopping malls of America?

It can't be both.
 
2006-10-20 03:42:42 AM  
"Bush admits that comparison of current Iraq situation with '68 Tet offensive "could be right". So cheer up, we'll only be there for another 7 years"

Don't forget about inflation.
 
2006-10-20 03:45:38 AM  
Sorry, I just realised that this comment requires an illustration:

www.bloggerheads.com
 
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