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(LA Times)   Bush admits that comparison of current Iraq situation with '68 Tet offensive "could be right." So cheer up, we'll only be there for another seven years   (latimes.com) divider line 654
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4069 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Oct 2006 at 9:00 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-10-19 01:35:23 PM
You are all crazy and I am the only sane one. Disprove that. I dare you. But remember, to disprove it, you must convince me that I am the crazy one and you the sane. And don't think that I'll listen to you. Oh no, you and yoru crazy jive language coudl infect me. So, back off o' crazy ones.
 
2006-10-19 01:35:36 PM
NateGrey: So these people were willing to let the 20-30 people enlist and fight, but the other 480 would throw their pom poms in the air from this side of the world. How nice is that.

This has always been the case. I was really tempted to print up a bunch of bumper stickers that said, "War? Hell yes! Enlist? fark no!" and put them on all the fratboys' Bush-Cheney cars at my local campus.
 
2006-10-19 01:38:36 PM
Allow me--

I_C_Weener: You are all crazy and I am the only sane one. Disprove that. I dare you. But remember, to disprove it, you must convince me that I am the crazy one and you the sane. And don't think that I'll listen to you. Oh no, you and yoru crazy jive language coudl infect me. So, back off o' crazy ones.

QED


/hahahaah. I keed, I keed!
//I find ICWeener to be a decent debater, as things go.
 
2006-10-19 01:39:18 PM
It's funny that people still talk like we could have won Viet Nam. Speaking as one who was there, it was a stupid, phony mess that did nothing but cost lives and treasure. Nothing was accomplished, and 'winning' there would have made as much sense as 'winning' in Iraq 1, Afghanistan or even Korea did. No good comes of something that starts with an evil purpose.

Now, that being said, I have been able to retire a bit early and a bit better because of it, so it's not all bad.
 
2006-10-19 01:40:18 PM
Sunny Ray I think it's more like one of those guys who get all puffed up and frantically defend some woman related issue (that's not even really an issue here except in his own mind), thinking the wimminz will be all 'Ohhh....he's so chivalrous! I want to make babies with him!" when really they are thinking 'What a farking pussy...'
 
2006-10-19 01:44:50 PM
I_C_Weener: But remember, to disprove it, you must convince me that I am the crazy one and you the sane.

u19s.quaker.org.uk

That's some catch...it's the best there is...
 
2006-10-19 01:45:23 PM
Here's a golden oldie from 2004:

2004-06-02 05:04:25 PM Cyansis

June 30 handover date

Exit 2006
 
2006-10-19 01:47:08 PM
Monkey Dirty Monkey

... or he has been on the receiving of many metaphorical biatch slaps and is fighting back within a false reality in defense of the women that he feels take huge offense to the term. In effect, he is defending himself and crying out for help.
 
2006-10-19 01:49:23 PM
 
2006-10-19 01:49:58 PM
Sunny Ray: n effect, he is defending himself and crying out for help

i hope he is just an angry troll, otherwise i think he is just a failure as a human being, not that an angry troll is much of a human being

\have had my moments
 
2006-10-19 01:50:28 PM
Sunny Ray ...or maybe his 'wife' is just a raging uptight coont, and he's afraid he'll get a literal biatchslap if she reads his posts and he doesn't defend it.
 
2006-10-19 01:53:26 PM
theorellior Careful, a compliment for me is a symptom for you.

Actually, I have tried hard to keep from being boxed into a debate corner, and from getting too hard headed to admit I am wrong. But, the good thing about the internet is its all opinion, not fact...so, how can opinion be wrong?
 
2006-10-19 01:55:38 PM
10 U.S.C. 311

Only Iraq and Sadam had nothing to do with 9/11 you farking spanner.
 
2006-10-19 01:56:07 PM
I guess this brings us back to the main point of the thread -- Why do President Bush's detractors hate him so much that they want us to fail in Iraq?
 
2006-10-19 01:56:13 PM
I_C_Weener "so, how can opinion be wrong?"

...when it's not mine.

:P
 
2006-10-19 01:58:33 PM
You know, a distinct parallel just occured to me with pendy's little biatchslap rant.

If you use the term biatchslap, you support and/or glorify the beating of women.

If you are against the war, you want the terrorists to win.
 
2006-10-19 01:59:33 PM
The real punchline, is that EVEN is everything worked out in America's favour, peace in Iraq, a useful puppet government, everything. There's no way to reverse the unseen sea change in the way the rest of the world will deal with the US. Trade, defense, foreign cooperation in internal security, travel and tourism, everything has been irrevocably altered in perpetuity. The level of trust that is required to operate in concert and with mutual purpose, has been lost. You now have a world that looks on you in many ways, disgust, disdain, horror, loathing, hatred. Take your pick. You're a hostile entity that at best is ostracized whenever possible, or at worst, is an open target for any type of vicious attack, at any cost.

I don't think many of you are thinking decades down the line, but many of you will have to live in the diminishing country you've created.
 
2006-10-19 02:01:47 PM
Does this mean Anne Margaret isn't coming?
 
2006-10-19 02:02:49 PM
gods_hackey_sac

dittybopper
I thought you might want to read this before talking about the Boer War.
(link is about deaths in the Kitcheners Concentration Camps, from a Boer website in South Africa)

You might want to read this:

A delegate of the South African Women and Children's Distress Fund, Emily Hobhouse, did much to publicise the distress of the inmates on her return to Britain after visiting some of the camps in the Orange Free State. Her fifteen-page report caused uproar, and led to a government commission, the Fawcett Commission, visiting camps from August to December 1901 which confirmed her report. They were highly critical of the running of the camps and made numerous recommendations, for example improvements in diet and provision of proper medical facilities. By February 1902, the annual death-rate dropped to 6.9% and eventually to 2%.
from here.

So, the British made a mistake, it was recognized, publicized, and they took steps to fix it. I guess that makes them comparable to the worst of worst, doesn't it?

/idiot.
 
2006-10-19 02:04:07 PM
Phil Moskowitz: , but many of you will have to live in the diminishing country you've created.


i was going to say "we" but i c u b a canuck (congrats, but i think out shiat will flow north also)
 
2006-10-19 02:04:26 PM
Damn liberal media! They totally took that quote out of context.

FTA:
Asked whether he agreed with a columnist who said that the fighting in Iraq mirrored Tet, Bush said that he "could be right."


He actually said "You could be right. What's Tet?"
 
2006-10-19 02:06:12 PM
The liberal media just likes to print these stories to take our attention away from the issues that really matter: abortion and gay marriage.
 
2006-10-19 02:07:51 PM
June 6, 1944 - May 8, 1945 - 10 months to defeat the Nazis.

March 20, 2003 - ? - Time needed to liberate the Iraqis.
 
2006-10-19 02:09:33 PM
schiefaw: He actually said "You could be right. What's Tet?"

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me you keed
 
2006-10-19 02:10:07 PM
I_C_Weener: Actually, anyone who cannot analyze things in context needs to get over it. At the time, given the geo-poltical context, it was justified to become involved and save the French.


Save the French? The French didn't want Vietnam to be 'saved'. The French withdrew from Vietnam and de Gaulle chastised the US for intervening in a civil war they had no business in. The justification at the time was that it was to stop the spread of communism, it was blind stupidity that the US didn't recognize the Vietnam situation for what it was earlier. A fight for nationalism. And the trigger for the war was Tonkin Gulf Incident which turned out to be a total fabrication much like our reasons for going to Iraq.

A war based on a lie is immoral and unjustified.
 
2006-10-19 02:10:44 PM
Sunny Ray

Why do President Bush's detractors hate him so much that they want us to fail in Iraq?



Because he touches himself at night.
 
2006-10-19 02:12:58 PM
The Shadow Knows!: Beat me by 10 minutes! I couldn't believe it was that far down the thread, too.

/You will take off that damn button?
 
2006-10-19 02:19:52 PM
dittybopper
Essentially your argument is that because of the declining death rate in the camps the British were absolved of wrongdoing? Is not the scorched earth/forced relocation policy employed similar to the policies that you are in fact arguing against?
I believe mistake is a bit of an understatement. And while comparing these to the Holocaust is a bit of a distortion, the fact remains tens of thousands of people dying warrants something slightly larger than "oops"
Also when calling someone's sources into question, citing wikipedia isn't exactly good form.

/idiot.
 
2006-10-19 02:34:45 PM
pyhrric victory may, in fact, be the last refuge of a scoundrel.

/except han solo. he was cool.
 
2006-10-19 02:36:56 PM
Sunny Ray
I guess this brings us back to the main point of the thread -- Why do President Bush's detractors hate him so much that they want us to fail in Iraq?

sorry - that is NOT "the main point of this thread." The main point is that even Bush himself is starting to realize his administration has gotten us into an expensive, unwinnable quaqmire that has killed many and accomplished nothing. Did you even RTFA before you trolled away, Bushboy? Maybe that's your interpretation of this thread, but it's not what this thread is about at all.

And, incidentally, it's not anyone "wanting us to fail in Iraq" that is causing us to fail. It is this administration's nearly incomprehensible malfeasance. So - please - stand up and take some personal responsibility for what's become of this needless war you supported and all it's wrought. Don't point fingers or cite baseless, neoMcCarthyist excuses.

Where does the "buck stop," Sunny? With a bunch of bloggers? With a "vast leftwing conspiracy"? Nope, it stop with George W. Bush.
 
2006-10-19 02:36:58 PM
swami-on-rye: //It was pointed out that the usual neocon farkers have of late been very quiet. I for one kind of miss them already...

I miss them a lot too. But my aim is improving...
 
2006-10-19 02:39:32 PM
I just wanted to say that I also blame Walter Cronkite for our failure in Iraq.

Seriosuly though, I think things have finally gotten to the point where there is no convincing those who still support this war. The only ones left are those who will blame everyone but those at fault no matter what happens. GO TEAM AMERICA!
 
2006-10-19 02:42:32 PM
10 U.S.C. 311: The WTC is why we're fighting the Terrorists.


But why are we fighting Iraqis?
 
2006-10-19 02:44:51 PM
maffick: "The WTC thing had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Iraq. Are you really that delusional?"

Not sure I entirely agree with this statement. A number of the jihadists have cited the ruinious UN/US sanctions against Sadaam's Iraq as a justification for terrorist attacks against the US. The sanctions have been blamed for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.
 
2006-10-19 02:50:45 PM
Sunny Ray

I believe the term "biatchslap" has become ubiquitous among much of our population and it is really not advocating or supporting violence against women. Its just a term that people use to let somebody know that they have been biatchslapped.


I am speechless. So I'll type this:

Stop putting me in a good mood when all I really want to do is kill people.
 
2006-10-19 02:53:20 PM
When people start to blame the news media coverage as the reason a war is not doing well, that's scary.

At this point, Fox News and it's conservative Bush supporting slant is the # 1 cable news channel.

Add the #1 conservative radio talk shows and in reality, the media most accessed is very suppotave of Bush and the war.

The blame game is very shallow.
 
2006-10-19 02:53:25 PM
People who are still in support of the Iraq War should rent "The Fog of War" with Bob McNamara, the architect of the Vietnam War. Watch this film, and then you will know exactly how the Iraq War will end for the USA, and why.
 
2006-10-19 02:58:54 PM
This just in...

14. "sticky". military. bases.

/we now return you to qickly dying flamewar
 
2006-10-19 03:00:35 PM
CrackeurJacque How do you measure a war?
 
2006-10-19 03:10:52 PM
CrackeurJacque

Yep, WWII started on D-Day.
 
2006-10-19 03:19:33 PM
dittybopper: In fact, 1942 was a particularly dark year.

Nov 23rd Stalingrad pocket created.
Nov 2nd El Alamein.
Two huge defeats for Germany. 1942.
It was a year the tide turned.
You fail at History.

/maybe because there was no US involvement?
 
2006-10-19 03:23:35 PM
Sunny Ray: Why do President Bush's detractors hate him so much that they want us to fail in Iraq?


Its not that, its that the failure is directly down to him, he's a bungling incompetant, that's why we hate him.
He keeps calling falure success, what should we do? Agree?
I want him gone and competant hands on the steering wheel.
 
2006-10-19 03:28:33 PM
Lord_Baron

I know that you think mean well and that your heart is in the right place, but please stop to ruminate about what your lack of support for the President does for our troops. Once President Bush made the decision to fight for our Freedom, it was up to every American to have his back and pray for Victory over the Terrorists. Please, think about this and you will agree that I am right.
 
2006-10-19 03:30:40 PM
3 Things to note:

Massive demonstrations against US involvement in Viet Nam began before Tet. Both republicans and democrats were involved in that clusterfark war, but their failures were blamed on the pacifist and sometimes radical left

The republicans will be unable to blame this fiasco on the left They can say democrats were as much to blame,which they are, but not the left

The left has sat out the last 20+ years waiting for the democrats and republicans to self destruct...looks like we won't have to wait too much longer

One thing to remember is that after the US getting kicked out of Saudi Arabia (the goal of bin Laden)
we have constructed 14 "enduring bases" that the Iraqis won't find too endearing after a few more years of occupation, even if troop levels are reduced significantly
 
2006-10-19 03:42:20 PM
gods_hackey_sac

dittybopper
Essentially your argument is that because of the declining death rate in the camps the British were absolved of wrongdoing?


Not absolved, but credit where credit is due: The British, after making a mistake, attempted to fix it. That alone shows a humanity that is lacking in many nations and ideologies of the past and present.

Is not the scorched earth/forced relocation policy employed similar to the policies that you are in fact arguing against?


Perhaps the Second Boer War was not a *PERFECT* example, but it was certainly far from the proposition that to supress an insurgency, you have to wipe out your opponents, which is what I was arguing against.

I believe mistake is a bit of an understatement. And while comparing these to the Holocaust is a bit of a distortion, the fact remains tens of thousands of people dying warrants something slightly larger than "oops"


I didn't call it an "oops", but thank you for misquoting. Mistakes can be large or small. What shows character is recognizing that you made a mistake, then taking steps to correct it.

This doesn't even come close to the Holocaust, and comparing them would be a 'bit of a distortion' in the same sense that the Sun is 'a bit hot', or that Pluto is 'a biatchilly'. The idea of the concentration camp in the Boer War was to remove the support mechanism of the Boer guerrillas. The idea of the concentration camp in WWII was to wipe out an entire ethno-religious group, along with others that were deemed 'undesireable'.



Also when calling someone's sources into question, citing wikipedia isn't exactly good form.


Really? Is what I quoted false in any way? What biases do you think might be inherent in Wikipedia that aren't there in a website run by the descendents of the Boers? In fact, the Wikipedia article tracks quite well in casualty numbers in the camps to the Boer site. So what is the problem? Because the information came from a site that just about anyone can modify? How is that worse than a site that only a select few can modify?

Certainly, when talking about a specific event there are more likely to be biases from the descendents of those effected than from the population at large.

I'm sorry, but complaining about where the information came from independent of whether it is true (in the factual sense of the word, not the political sense) or not is just silly, and shows that you aren't to be taken seriously.

By the way, what about the Malaysian Emergency?
 
2006-10-19 03:44:42 PM
I find a lot of the debate about Iraq to be a bit puzzling. This "Tet" comparison is one of them. A while back, I noticed the "bad thing that will happen in Iraq because Bush farked up" shifted from "the Sunni insurgency wins" to the "the Sunni are exiled / exterminated by Shia".

As I understand it, the Sunni are now down to being 15% of the population of Iraq as opposed to the pre-war value of 20%. Most of that is due to Sunnis fleeing the country as the completely pissed-off Shia begin the processing of kicking the Sunni to pieces.

So if you are all hung up on the Vietnam analogy, the coming situation in Iraq is roughly akin to having the Vietnam war end with the North Vietnamese hammered out of existence by South Vietnam.

It seems to me that real question now is whether or not Shia-dominated Iraq will end up as an Iranian ally.

Actually, I'm waiting for some smart Democrat to start telling the American people that our troops are now dying to protect the Sunni (the nigh-genocidal tyrants of Iraq) from the vengeance of the people that they have spent centuries victimizing. We'll be out in six months if that happens
 
2006-10-19 03:44:55 PM
Sunny Ray,

Once Presidnt Bush made the decision to invade a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and had no WMD, it was up to every American to call him on it.

THAT is what freedom is. NOT blindly following the leader into a war of choice.
 
2006-10-19 03:46:58 PM
Sunny Ray -

your response to Lord_Baron literally made me feel sick.

How the heck was invading Iraq and killing over 100,000 of them "fighting for our freedom"?? Please explain.

And what does a "lack of support for the President do for our troops"? Hopefully it BRINGS THEM HOME instead of having their legs blown off or their children orphaned. That's a bad thing to you?

If you think we shouldn't question our government - just "stand behind them" like good little boys, Sunny, you clearly have no idea about your country or being an American. Please - read some history. The Founding Fathers, wanted you to stand up and dissent against things you don't believe in. Why do you disrespect them so?

You seem to favor a Saudi or North Korean model of government, where all citizens must march lock-step with their ruler, yet you're concerned with "fighting for freedom"? Do you see any irony here?

Let me boil this down in a way that even a flag-waiving fapper like yourself might understand:

If we're "fighting for our freedom" but we must "always stand behind our president," well, what exactly are we fighting for? The right to conform?
 
2006-10-19 03:48:34 PM
Sunny Ray:
I know that you think mean well and that your heart is in the right place, but please stop to ruminate about what having a bungling incompetent for a leader does for our troops.

/It gets them killed, and money wasted. He's gotta go.
 
2006-10-19 03:53:18 PM
Lard_Baron

I know that you think mean well and that your heart is in the right place, but please stop to ruminate about what having a bungling incompetent for a leader does for our troops.

I do! Believe me. That is why I work so to help keep Liberals from getting elected.
 
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