Not that it matters, but religion is insanity:

in·san·i·ty [ in sánnətee ] (plural in·san·i·ties)

noun

Definition:

1. Inability to act in a rational manner. Inability to reason or relate in a rational manner to one's physical surroundings.

quadropheniac thinks paying $60/year for FARK makes him special.

I give $65/year to my local NPR affiliate. I'm $5 more special than you.

Picador

politically correct and scientificly correct are not the same thing. :P

That said, i would have no problem with a philiosphy class in high school, about major world religions in which each one is given equal time. Hell, make it an elective if you want.

logictwisted: Are other religions (including atheism banned from the practice? The governemnt cannot descriminate based on relgious grounds either. It is an elective. But I guess liberals find it ok to descriminate that way.

1) It's not an elective - it's an integral part of the curriculum which you may opt out of. Kinda like sex ed - if you want, you can get your kid to go sit by himself while everyone else learns. In this case "learns" means "be indoctrinated into the Christian faith". I demand that the Churches in the area spend an hour teaching evolution to make up for this.

2) Buy a farking dictionary - it's almost impossible to figure out what you meant to type with all the misspelling, typos, and grammatical errors.

Scooby's'pawn

The state can't allow any one religion to be given preferential treatment over another. That's the heart of the case here. Courts have unanimously reaffirmed this many, many, many times. Especially on instances where the government wrongly let a religious body have special treatment on goverment land.

You seem to be saying "Using school property isn't against the constitution." But it most definitely is. When the school decided to give support to this church, they gave them preferential treatment.

Like others have said, there is a very simple solution out of this. Put the church on private land, and let kids choose to go to that if they want, but don't pressure them to do so. Seeing that school administrators didn't bother shows they never cared to do it right in the first place.

This is not Bible classes happening in public school. This is Bible classes happening INSTEAD OF public school. That's a problem.

Logic Twisted:Yes, unfortunately the ideology is "If i can't do it (or in this case- if I don't want to) then no one gets to"

Yeah, it's the all-or-none clause. Either everyone gets the freedom, or no one gets the freedom. Selectively choosing who gets to do what is the beginning of the end.

I thought the liberal meant that people got to do what they want, with as little government interferance as possible. Obviously I was mistaken.

Obviously you are a conservative, and thus are supposedly also in favor of small government. Perhaps I am mistaken as well.

Why not teach the kids that we're different. We have different beliefs, different likes and dislikes, different ways of living. Sometimes they'll be like yours, sometimes they won't. It's not bad, just different. SO DEAL WITH IT

Better men than I have answered this comment, so I refer you to them.

Picador

Those of you who set such store in Darwinism ought to read up on what Darwin himself had to say. His explanation of why black kids can't be expected to do as well in school as white kids may have its roots in science, but it's no more politically correct than Communion wafers in the cafeteria.

see, that's the great thing about science - no one has to take any given text as inerrant, and the wrong stuff is discarded as it's disproved. many anti-science folks have a hard time wrapping their minds around this concept.

Tjos Weel

If you want the govt out of your childrens schools, then send them to a private one.

Andrew Wiggin

Have you read this entire thread? I believe that most of the hate and bile that is being spewed is unleashed by the Christian Haters. Please, re-evaluate.

So the problem is that classes are held on school property? Have the school system bus them to a church, that won't cost much.
And don't let Timmy come, make him go to hell with his mother.

Shouldn't they be required to also have classes on Islam too? And any other superstition known to man?

Cheeseburger

Indiana law says public schools can release children from school for voluntary off-campus religion classes if their parents request it. The law is backed by a 1952 decision by the U.S. Supreme Court.

It wasn't off campus.

2) Buy a farking dictionary - it's almost impossible to figure out what you meant to type with all the misspelling, typos, and grammatical errors.

/CHEER that post! I've been derided for saying it, but it matters. A typo here or there is one thing, misuse of words, phrasing, spelling, etc... makes it unreadable and, frankly, can change what you have said.

Cheeseburger: Indiana law says public schools can release children from school for voluntary off-campus religion classes if their parents request it. The law is backed by a 1952 decision by the U.S. Supreme Court.

slapping a trailer in the teachers parking lot does not equate 'off campus' - they have also 'released' children with apparently no intention what so ever of actually teaching the ones who don't want to eat paste for jesus.

Why does Jesus hate America?

Woohoo, first greenlight for me!

kronicfeld
Submitter, your headline is more than a little deceptive.

Deceptiveness acknowledged. C'est la Fark, no?

Electrify
Guess you underestimated the intelligence of Fark Submitter

/no flamewar for you

Aww, poopy! :-P

Seriously though, it's pretty gratifying to see a bunch of Farkers come together in agreement about an article I submitted, as opposed to verbally ripping each other to shreds.


About the kid in question, I feel for him. I grew up in Indiana myself, and a non-christian too. "Open-minded" is not a term applied to many people around here when it comes to religion.

/whatchoo readin' for?

//Fort Wayne too, kinda

Shenanigans. Fort Wayne is the most backwards city ever. I blame it on inbreeding. Nobody ever leaves. In high school, a good number of my friends had the same teacehrs that their parents had. I know people who turned down well-paying job offers in places like Dallas, Chicago, New York, hell, even Indianapolis because it was too far from home. People protested things like expanding the main downtown library, widening I69, even installing sidewalks near schools because they'd "gotten by for the past 20 years just fine."

And on topic, I (thankfully) was only in elementary school for 6 months there. The few things that I remember are being forced to exercise to richard simmons videos twice a week, having to square dance in gym, and getting laughed at by the jewish kid because, while we were at religious education once a week, he got to play Number Munchers.

/Rant over
//Indiana as a whole wasn't bad, just Fort Wayne
///Notre Dame sucks

Sunny Ray

He Sunny, once you christians get your ducks in a row, we'll talk.

something is greatly amiss here, or am i missing something?

there is one hour that some kids go to the bible bus and the others don't do anything? what school has a one hour chunk of time unaccounted for?

hillbillypharmacist

No, that isn't part of the suit at all. Look at what the ACLU said. Having children leave school temporarily for outside religious instruction is absolutely constitutional.

Even the ACLU isn't contesting this, they agree with that freedom, they are protesting the way in which it is being done.

OderusUrungus

WHO had what beliefs shoved down whos throats? Seems like the ACLU is doing the shoving down said throats.

Please read the article before posting next time so you dont look like such a jackass.


I read the article.
I stand by what I said.
Nice personal attack, though. Verrry Christ-like!
I hear Iran is a great place to go if you want your religion and gubmint mixed together.
Peace be with you. You are forgiven.

Gecko Gingrich

... nondenominational [provided you are Christian]...

ftw.

Just what I was thinking.

Since you're all worried about it the name.

Why do feminists base half their arguments on the myth that women are too week and too ignorant to compete with men?

Why is it that liberals preach against discrimination, but then can't appreciate other people's beliefs?

Why is it that conservatives complain about big government, but then use it to intrude in everyday life?

Why is it that religious groups preach love for everyone, unless you're different?

In the end: To every one of these groups, freedom means forcing everyone to believe what they do

That's logic - just twisted.

I don't make it up, I just point it out

platypusjones: there is one hour that some kids go to the bible bus and the others don't do anything? what school has a one hour chunk of time unaccounted for?

It's to cover the "missing time". YOU KNOW what I mean.

Cheeseburger: Indiana law says public schools can release children from school for voluntary off-campus religion classes if their parents request it. The law is backed by a 1952 decision by the U.S. Supreme Court.

"Although teachers at Neil Armstrong Elementary do not teach the class..."

"The Bible class is run by a private group..."

"We're not attacking religious education release programs," Suess said. "They can be constitutional if they're done correctly."

Nice selective quoting to prove your point. However, had you properly quoted and given context from the very article you linked:

Indiana law says public schools can release children from school for voluntary off-campus religion classes if their parents request it. The law is backed by a 1952 decision by the U.S. Supreme Court.

"They are permissible as long as the school is not involved in any way," said Jacquelyn Bowie Suess, an American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana attorney who filed the complaint on behalf of the mother. In Mooresville, "the problem is that it's taking place on school grounds, and that the school is so involved with it."

1. The court ruled that schools cannot prevent parents from taking their kids out of school for separate religious instruction.

2. This school is holding Bible classes on school grounds, while those who choose not to participate are left to themselves for one hour of a school day that is only about 6-7 hours long. Taxpayers are paying for some kids to sit about and do nothing. This is a problem.

3. Religious people need to stop trying to interfere with schools. Schools don't teach that God isn't real, so why should they teach that God is real?

Sunny Ray: Have you read this entire thread? I believe that most of the hate and bile that is being spewed is unleashed by the Christian Haters.

I wonder what would happen if a secular group wanted to rent a space on church grounds to teach evolution as an option to those kids who weren't interested in sunday school or sermons.

Pray in a closet.

Stebain:
This brings up another issue... a particular Farker, who I shall not name, has some controversial claims to make on this very topic. If you read their bio and are able to read between the lines, you can garner what you need in order to get their gist.


What the heck is this about?????

apeiron242: It is an established precedent that funding/facilitating religion on public property/schools is the gov't establishing religion.

Yes. It is established in the courts. They're wrong and precedent is overturned quite often in this type of case.

we_hates: It is my firm belief that the state should not be indoctrinated children into any religion.

The state is not running the class.

Gecko Gingrich: "Congress" has been clarified changed to mean "the government, from national down to local".

Funny how that's been changed in just that one place. All the other places in the constitution "congress" means "congress".



Sloth_DC: 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

You suck at Constitutional Law, btw.

What right was abridged by the state again? Oh yeah, passing a law that says they can't gather in the school would itself be unconstitutional. You suck at reading comprehension.

The point of the bill of rights is to guarantee certain freedoms to the people. It limits the government's ability to take away those freedoms. The children have the freedom to go to the class or not go to the class. If they feel left out, so what? They can organize their own study group and start their own clique. There is no constitutional guarantee that you will be happy and never have your feelings hurt.

I am all for making sure that the government doesn't interfere with religion, but it's simply not doing so here.

Yes, let's not put God in any schools or anything. It's ok to talk about support for Aids, Gays, war, illegal immigrants, etc, etc. But God forbid you try to instill some morals into anyone, they get into an uproar. As I recall this class was not mandatory. So, there are some people that are interested in hearing what the Bible says and care enough about their afterlife to attend. For those that don't care, don't go, but shut up for those that give a damn!


How about we install ethics in kids and not morals. Morals are those warm fuzzy things criminals and preachers talk about before or after they have farked you up the ass.

headslap

Well, Im 37 and single, so there may never be kids. But, if there are, they are going to be home schooled (says the guy who went to state schools from 1st grade thru grad school). I would like to stop paying for your kids tuition now though.

Plus, I think government involvement with schools screws them up, just like government involvement with religion screws the church up.

This issue doesnt come up in a non-state school. Or, if it does, its solely an internal issue. Same for things like idiotic zero tolerance rules and dress codes. All can be decided internally and parents who dont like the rules can vote with their pocketbook. Which doesnt have any diebold problems either. Much more effective method of voting.

junkevil

I am not trying to push my beliefs on anybody. Unless praying for your souls = pushing beliefs. Your Hitler thing was just insulting. To you, not to me.

Scooby's'pawn: Read the whole thing not just the part you want.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Congress has made no law requiring anyone to take part in any religion.

Perhaps you should read that phrase again. "No law respecting an establishment of religion" does NOT mean "no law requiring anyone to take part in any religion".

Leviticus - 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Have them read ALL the bible.

Hm I didnt think anyone was shoving any religion down anyones throats in this instance.

They arent forcing kids to go to this bible reading thing, they ask the parents for permission, and if the parent prefers not to have their child participate, they read or play a game or something.

Just because the school allows the trailer on campus doesnt mean anything. The government isnt shiving a religion down your throat any more than they are by making Christmas day a US holiday and giving you the day off work.

I wouldnt have my kid go there, personally, I can think of better things for him or her to do at school than read mythology and superstition.

but I could care less if some people supported that.

Lawsuits are the problem with this country, not the fact that what, 80, 85% of the country is Christian.

Arnold T Pants: Please show me a federal law that says 'seperation of church and state.' Thanks, retard.

You misspelled "separation" and you should apologize.

See U.S. Code (aka federal law), Title 16, Chapter 1, Subchapter LIX-C, § 410ee(b).

realjd: Fort Wayne is the most backwards city ever


To be fair, they do have one hell of a swingers club that has some rampaging parties on the week-ends.

Scooby's'pawn: The state is not running the class.

The state is handing out permission slips and allocating room on government property to teach the class.

Sorry Cheeseburger, it doesn't matter on Fark if there is a Constitutional way to provide these classes. The fact that they exist in the first place is a crime against humanity.

Tyee: So the problem is that classes are held on school property? Have the school system bus them to a church, that won't cost much.
And don't let Timmy come, make him go to hell with his mother.

Sunny Ray: Have you read this entire thread? I believe that most of the hate and bile that is being spewed is unleashed by the Christian Haters. Please, re-evaluate.


if JESUS came to earth and asked both of you for anal, would you do as the LORD JESUS commands or go to hell?

Is anyone actually reading what is going on. The problem isn't that the kids are leaving for private religious instruction. ONE HOUR A WEEK AND IT IS CONSTITUTIONAL TO DO SO, GET OVER IT.

The ACLU is suing over the way it was done, not that it is being done in the first place.

The kids that don't go can have library time or such. I used to love to go to the library and read. Or perhaps be taught a comparitive religious course, but in reality that isn't the concern of the lawsuit. The concern is how this is being done, not that it is being done.

Christians aren't forcing any religion, they may have fouled up the procedures and this lawsuit will clarify what they need to do.

Yet another reason to get the pornography and violence out of our schools and into Fantasyland and churches where ancient and deadly myths are seen as nothing but fodder for minds looking for a cheap thrill.

http://www.corruptionchronicles.com/2006/10/muslim_prayer_in_public_school.htm l


October 04, 2006
Muslim Prayer In Public Schools

In a case that illustrates how separation of church and state applies only to Christianity, various courts have given a public school district permission to continue teaching Islamic indoctrination that includes reciting prayers and adopting roles as Muslims.

By rejecting an appeal this week, the Supreme Court has let stand two lower court decisions that allow a northern California public school to teach middle school students about Islam by having them recite language from prayers and making them adopt roles as Muslims for three weeks.

Students use Muslim names, pray in class and memorize passages from the Quran. They also give things up, such as television or candy, to simulate fasting during the month of Ramadan. When a group of Christian students sued, claiming that the activities had crossed the line from education into an official endorsement of a religious practice, a federal judge and appeals court ruled against them saying that the class had an instructional purpose.

The courts have not been so friendly to Christians and neither have public school districts across the nation, which have prevented Christian students from engaging in activities that supposedly violate the separation of church and state. Examples include a court ruling that the word God in the pledge of allegiance violates church-state separation and the recent disciplinary threat against a Maryland middle school student for reading the Bible during her free time at school.

One blog sarcastically writes; Christians praying during school hours? We can't have that. Teachers leading Muslim prayers in class? Why not. It goes on to say that Supremes okay establishment of religion in this case.

I have nothing to say.