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(Reuters)   The U.S. has quietly retreated from its push for democracy in the Muslim world since the Hamas election stunned the Bush Administration by bringing a violent militant group to power instead of the Puppies and Marshmallows Party   (today.reuters.com) divider line 152
    More: Obvious  
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539 clicks; posted to Politics » on 13 Oct 2006 at 9:46 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-10-13 02:58:12 AM
but i like puppies and marshmallows
 
2006-10-13 03:02:16 AM
Yeah, how's that for democracy, farkers!?
 
2006-10-13 03:03:14 AM
well, if you give people a means to voice their dissent instead of having to blow up people, it'll reduce terrorism.

I have always been a big advocate of democracy/representative government in the middle east (the basis of which would be non-secular, but religous advocacy groups would probably be required)

but all this in conjuntion with a)reforming islam (read: cutting down on fundamentals and b) disarming these militant groups and giving them a politcal voice as a trade off.

I think that works for everybody.
 
2006-10-13 03:06:33 AM
Persepolis: I have always been a big advocate of democracy/representative government in the middle east

Why?
 
2006-10-13 03:07:35 AM
Sun God: Why?

Because we're seeing the alternative right now.
 
2006-10-13 03:10:01 AM
I quietly retreated from my push for a threeway due to violent resistance.

Some times you just have to know when to quit
 
2006-10-13 03:23:31 AM
Perseopolis, just remember that the people voted in in a democracy aren't neccesarily the people that are best for the job. (I mean, my God, have you looked at Congress lately?) The people that blow up people are popular enough over there to get seated, so if that's what democracy was trying to stop... bit of a backfire there.

/also, you and your damned Prince of Persia card
//took all the advertising money away from Beyond Good & Evil
///rrrrrrgh
 
2006-10-13 03:28:55 AM
Gosling: Perseopolis, just remember that the people voted in in a democracy aren't neccesarily the people that are best for the job. (I mean, my God, have you looked at Congress lately?) The people that blow up people are popular enough over there to get seated, so if that's what democracy was trying to stop... bit of a backfire there

I contend that the reason people blow up other people is because people who disagree with the government aren't able to voice their opinions, which leads to angst. Couple that angst with opportunistic leaders who shift blame from domestic issues (which practically all problems in the middle east derive from) to external sources. (Israel and the west) That coupled with a religion that places heavy value in martyrdom leads to what we're seeing now.

Giving people this dissent valvue, which is inherent in democractic goverments, in conjuction with a plan to strengthen the moderates there will help alleivate this problem.

/also, you and your damned Prince of Persia card
//took all the advertising money away from Beyond Good & Evil


huh?
 
2006-10-13 03:36:57 AM
Persepolis: Because we're seeing the alternative right now.

Right now, sure. Maybe. I personally don't think middle eastern governments are any of my business. But you said you've always been an advocate of democracy in the ME. So, I'm curious about that point of view.
 
2006-10-13 03:41:22 AM
Sun God: So, I'm curious about that point of view

I hope I explained my point of view sufficently then.

I personally don't think middle eastern governments are any of my business.

I think we live in a global society now. So any current set up that results in what we're seeing now is of concern to everybody.
 
2006-10-13 09:02:46 AM
Persepolis

I have always been a big advocate of democracy/representative government in the middle east



Really? What were your thoughts over the fundamentalist, democratically elected government that was overthrown in Algeria in 1992? Why didn't democracy work in that case, and should it have?
 
2006-10-13 09:12:10 AM
submitter: Puppies and Marshmallows Party

Good headline. I needed a laugh.
 
2006-10-13 09:13:40 AM
Obvious. It's a waste of time to bring civilization to the savages.
 
2006-10-13 09:50:47 AM
www.lolliesgalore.com
Support Marshmallow Kitties!
 
2006-10-13 09:59:39 AM
Now maybe old Bush will stop thinking like a Democrat and his Hero, LBJ...
 
2006-10-13 10:04:13 AM
Skwidd: Obvious. It's a waste of time to bring civilization to the savages.

What's it like being racist?
 
2006-10-13 10:09:27 AM
Hyaku-Shiki
Skwidd: Obvious. It's a waste of time to bring civilization to the savages.

What's it like being racist?


'Muslim' isn't a race, moron.
 
2006-10-13 10:11:08 AM
ericjohnson0: 'Muslim' isn't a race, moron.

I have no time to deal with trolls.

The "civilization of savages" he's referring to are the Arabs. Pick up a history book before you spout off anything stupid.
 
2006-10-13 10:17:39 AM
Hyaku-Shiki

I have no time to deal with trolls.


Then don't. The guy's a proven idiot. Just ignore him.
 
2006-10-13 10:18:20 AM
As sickening as this is for me to type, I have to agree *puke* with ericjohnson0, Muslim isn't a race, it's a religion.

There is only one race, the human race, everything else is either a religion, ethnicity or idealogy.
 
2006-10-13 10:18:22 AM
Yeah, why would anyone get the idea that arabs are savages? Crazy talk..
 
2006-10-13 10:18:23 AM
binnster: Then don't. The guy's a proven idiot. Just ignore him.

Done and done.
 
2006-10-13 10:22:41 AM
suebhoney: We're dealing specifically with Arabs.

Granted, there is a lot wrong with the Muslim world, but you can't solely blame it on religion. There are far more factors that play into this than anything else.
 
2006-10-13 10:25:06 AM
suebhoney: There is only one race, the human race

I think I saw that on a Hallmark Card once.
 
2006-10-13 10:29:21 AM
ericjohnson0 is the most patriotic American here...

Red neck,
blue nose,
white sheet.
 
2006-10-13 10:30:00 AM
Hyaku-Shiki
Granted, there is a lot wrong with the Muslim world, but you can't solely blame it on religion. There are far more factors that play into this than anything else.

And what happens when that 'religion' robs women of the right to say 'no?' When men can have multiple wives, producing 8-12 children each and creating a population growth which outstrips economic growth? And when economic growth is behind population growth long term, joblessness, lack of opportuinty, etc. creates a cauldron of discontent and hate.

However, their leaders blame everything on the Joos and the Great Satan, thus forcing their problems on us.
 
2006-10-13 10:31:10 AM
ericjohnson0 said,

"Now maybe old Bush will stop thinking like a Democrat and his Hero, LBJ..."

Yes, President Bush's attempts to reinvigorate the Great Society have certainly been extreme.

Just out of curiosity, were you even alive when LBJ was president? You sure don't seem to know what you're talking about if you were.
 
2006-10-13 10:32:10 AM
kregh99
ericjohnson0 is the most patriotic American here...

Red neck,
blue nose


Fixed that for you...

Ever fought a neo-Nazi? Little bastards usually pack knives... I have- July, 1982.
 
2006-10-13 10:34:08 AM
I agree with ericjohnson0 on this issue we need a solution that will put this all to rest once and for all, a "final solution" if you will...
 
2006-10-13 10:34:38 AM
Random Reality Check

RE: Bush and LBJ

This is the best article on the subject:

http://www.antiwar.com/eland/?articleid=8302

Although George W. Bush likes to compare his presidency to that of Ronald Reagan, it most resembles that of Lyndon Baines Johnson. Some conservatives and liberals alike may be horrified at the comparison, but that is where the facts lead.

Although Ronald Reagan's efforts to reduce the size of government were mostly rhetorical, his philosophy was one of small government conservatism. Certainly, the deficits Reagan racked up by cutting taxes more than spending and the percolation of his philosophy into public opinion probably played at least some role in reducing the growth of federal spending during the Clinton presi...
 
2006-10-13 10:34:59 AM
NateGrey: suebhoney: There is only one race, the human race

I think I saw that on a Hallmark Card once.


The Puppies and Marshmallows Party approves of this message.
 
2006-10-13 10:35:38 AM
suebhoney: There is only one race, the human race, everything else is either a religion, ethnicity or idealogy.

I tend to agree with the philosophy, but according to the dictionary, a race is also:
a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics

So, hating the muslims, the jews, the english, or even the french(!) is being racist.

/Hating the americans is ok though
//just joking ;-p
///I don't even hate the haters, I pity them
 
2006-10-13 10:37:15 AM
Headso
I agree with ericjohnson0 on this issue we need a solution that will put this all to rest once and for all, a "final solution" if you will...

We need to discredit Islam in all of its forms, from its origins to the modern day proliferation of intolerance and hate.

But your National Socialist overtone I reject in its entirety.
 
2006-10-13 10:39:12 AM
ericjohnson0 said,

"And what happens when that 'religion' robs women of the right to say 'no?'"

You mean like America did until a century ago? How badly did that hurt our country - not that I am saying it was the right thing to do.

"When men can have multiple wives, producing 8-12 children each and creating a population growth which outstrips economic growth?"

You do realize that Americans also had very large families a century ago because the survivability rate was low - you know, something like what the Middle East has now.

"And when economic growth is behind population growth long term, joblessness, lack of opportuinty, etc. creates a cauldron of discontent and hate."

Ah, so it is an economic growth issue now, not that they hate us for our freedoms? Did it ever occur to you that there might be a component of these people being sick and tired of being pushed around by a generation or two of meddling by the west?

"However, their leaders blame everything on the Joos and the Great Satan, thus forcing their problems on us."

Yes, blaming some group for all of your problems (*cough*Liberals*cough*) is certainly something uniquely Arab, right?

Just checking...
 
2006-10-13 10:42:09 AM
ericjohnson0: We need to discredit Islam in all of its forms, from its origins to the modern day proliferation of intolerance and hate.

ya ya ya...Don't try and come in here and actually have a debate on any issue, your past behavior has made you a joke in this community, don't expect anything but sarcastic godwins and KKK references directed at you...sieg heil!
 
2006-10-13 10:43:12 AM
ericjohnson0: And what happens when that 'religion' robs women of the right to say 'no?'

Us, a little over a century ago.

When men can have multiple wives,

Mormons.

producing 8-12 children each

Catholics

and creating a population growth which outstrips economic growth?

Um, this entire country.

And when economic growth is behind population growth long term, joblessness, lack of opportuinty, etc. creates a cauldron of discontent and hate.

This entire country in about... 20 years if economic indicators continue.

However, their leaders blame everything on the Joos gays and the Great Satan secular liberals, thus forcing their problems on us.

Fixed that for you.

No religion is fundamentally evil or violent or horrible. The tenets may be, and the literal interpretation of scripture may be, but that is the issue of nearly all organized religion. If Jews followed the literal directions of the Torah (including Leviticus, one of the more brutal religious texts... well, ever), it would be a religion of bloodshed.

Islam is fundamentally no better or worse than Christianity or Judaism. The problem is the modern interpretation in many regions are prone to violence, using scripture and tribal tradition to justify it. If we faced a shift in interpretation and more "moderate" Muslims gained influence in these regions rather than psychotically "devout" Wahabi and other sects, things would be a lot better.

But you probably don't care, because all Muslims are evil and the Koran says THIS and I'm not listening about the Bible lalala!
 
2006-10-13 10:43:13 AM
I know I shouldn't, but I just can't resist. I suspect you'll resort to ad-homs after this, so I hope this is my last reply.

ericjohnson0: And what happens when that 'religion' robs women of the right to say 'no?'

That's not "religion," that's culture. Before Islam, women could not own property, could not receive an education and were basically slaves. If a man died, his son would inherit his own mother and she would become his wife.

Some of the best scholars in the Islamic world were (and still are) women. They are guaranteed a right to vote, own property independent of a man and a right to receive a free education.

When men can have multiple wives, producing 8-12 children each and creating a population growth which outstrips economic growth? And when economic growth is behind population growth long term, joblessness, lack of opportuinty, etc. creates a cauldron of discontent and hate.

And yet the majority of men don't get multiple wives as there are several religious admonishments for doing so. The ones that do get multiple wives have to economically support them

Also, these countries are "poor" only because of corrupt government that is bolstered by US foreign policy. The leaders of these governments are either moderates keeping the fundies in line, or corrupt a-holes who care about nothing except the profits they receive from oil.

In an Islamic economic system, oil wealth is to be shared by all citizens of the state, regardless of religion.

However, their leaders blame everything on the Joos and the Great Satan, thus forcing their problems on us.

Thus taking away any focus on their own corrupt leaders. But who's to blame them when they are being supported by the US?
 
2006-10-13 10:44:06 AM
Random Reality Check
RE: Your Retort

A century ago American was a growing Republic with no income tax and a small, controllable bureacracy. This is no comparison to the modern Middle East.
 
2006-10-13 10:45:15 AM
Random Reality Check

Four minutes off, but basically the same thing. Good show.
 
2006-10-13 10:47:01 AM
ericjohnson0,

Nice article, short on facts though.

LBJ spent more on building a government to take care of Americans (don't get me wrong, I don't agree with most of what he did) and very little proportionally on defense or waging war.

There is a serious difference between LBJ and George W. Bush - LBJ for all his failings was consumed by trying to end poverty in this country while President Bush doesn't even seem to understand it exists in any meaningful way judging by his congratulations of that single mother who worked three jobs.

Let me state this clearly, while there are parallels between LBJ (big government growth, fighting foreign wars for no discernible purpose) that is about where the similarity ends.

Johnston cared about the American Public, I can see no indications that President Bush does in the least - well, as long as we don't look at his caring of his wealthy cronies.
 
2006-10-13 10:48:23 AM
Hyuki Shiki
ericjohnson0: And what happens when that 'religion' robs women of the right to say 'no?'

That's not "religion," that's culture. Before Islam, women could not own property, could not receive an education and were basically slaves. If a man died, his son would inherit his own mother and she would become his wife.


Culture in many cases is defined by Religion... you would have learned this if you had taken Sociology 101...

And you're saying Islam is 'Pro-Woman?' Ok... Now I know you're a Troll.
 
2006-10-13 10:50:04 AM
All you need to see the savagery of the Muslims is to watch them. Yes, you can make judgements about others for yourself.

I may be racist or a hypocrite, but it doesn't bother me.
 
2006-10-13 10:52:06 AM
Skwidd
I may be racist or a hypocrite, but it doesn't bother me.

You are niether. The color of a person's skin is in no way indicative of the color of their heart.
 
2006-10-13 10:53:23 AM
ericjohnson0: Culture in many cases is defined by Religion... you would have learned this if you had taken Sociology 101...

And you're saying Islam is 'Pro-Woman?' Ok... Now I know you're a Troll.


And there was a culture that existed before Islam arrived on the scene, giving women far more rights that they currently enjoy. There are quite a few asshats out there that can twist scripture around to fit their own purposes.

See:

Bloody William: Islam is fundamentally no better or worse than Christianity or Judaism. The problem is the modern interpretation in many regions are prone to violence, using scripture and tribal tradition to justify it. If we faced a shift in interpretation and more "moderate" Muslims gained influence in these regions rather than psychotically "devout" Wahabi and other sects, things would be a lot better.

It would make the Islamic world's job much easier, if people like you didn't jump down the throat of moderates every single time they attempt to right the wrongs of fundamentalists. That includes and interventionist foreign policy based more on the greed of oil than the welfare of billions.
 
2006-10-13 10:55:45 AM
Wow, this thread went from 0 to Flamewar in a flash. And all anyone had to do was to dehumanize an entire culture about which he knew nothing.
 
2006-10-13 10:55:49 AM
ericjohnson0 said,

"A century ago American was a growing Republic with no income tax and a small, controllable bureacracy. This is no comparison to the modern Middle East."

Perhaps I misunderstood you because if not, what you said (above) is absurd. Are you suggesting that because a century ago the US had no income tax and was a smaller government it was okay to not allow women to own property or vote? It was okay for us to have families that had a five or six to one population growth rate?

How big do you think Saddam's government was (proportionally) as compare to the US?

I think you screwed the pooch on that one but I would be very interested in you providing any information as to why you think this is a reasonable position.

Bloody William,

Actually, I think you did are far better job of describing "our" position. I shall try to remember to take my time so as to be able to post quality over speed. :)
 
2006-10-13 10:56:35 AM
Hyaku-Shiki: It would make the Islamic world's job much easier, if people like you didn't jump down the throat of moderates every single time they attempt to right the wrongs of fundamentalists. That includes and interventionist foreign policy based more on the greed of oil than the welfare of billions.


Dude, I'm not one of those idiots, and I don't jump down the throats of moderate Muslims. I don't run and hide from every brownish person I meet on the bus, and I don't think half the people in my neighborhood want to bomb my ass. I don't think this is a flawed religion, or that it's any worse than anything else out there, and I believe fundamentalist or fanatical approaches to any ideology can only lead to pain and death. I'm the tolerant hardcore liberal hippie sociologist type here, man. You want racist douchebag, you're looking for ericjohnson0 or Skwidd.
 
2006-10-13 10:59:03 AM
Bloody William: Dude, I'm not one of those idiots, and I don't jump down the throats of moderate Muslims. I don't run and hide from every brownish person I meet on the bus, and I don't think half the people in my neighborhood want to bomb my ass. I don't think this is a flawed religion, or that it's any worse than anything else out there, and I believe fundamentalist or fanatical approaches to any ideology can only lead to pain and death. I'm the tolerant hardcore liberal hippie sociologist type here, man. You want racist douchebag, you're looking for ericjohnson0 or Skwidd.

I was quoting you to prove a point about Islam being similar to Christianity and Judaism. I wrote "See: Then quoted you."

It's been a long hard day at work. Sorry for the confusion.
 
2006-10-13 10:59:04 AM
Bonk_Thud
Wow, this thread went from 0 to Flamewar in a flash. And all anyone had to do was to dehumanize an entire culture about which he knew nothing.

No, it isn't a Flame War... it's just people have never read the Koran, never studied the History of Islam, etc. All they can do is parrot talking points from 'V for Vendetta' or the 'Daily Show' or some other piece of leftwing trash.

Unfortunately, so many people are incredibly ignorant of the facts.
 
2006-10-13 11:00:08 AM
Random Reality Check: Actually, I think you did are far better job of describing "our" position. I shall try to remember to take my time so as to be able to post quality over speed. :)


Heh, thanks, man. Your argument was great, too.
 
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