This crosses a line for me.

That's absolute BS.

I'd been relatively happy with Microsoft-- yes, they do some bad things, but a lot of good things.

But this is just going too far.

I won't be running it on any of my machines, they can fark off. My wife bought a gateway machine and was fine until her warranty ran out (three years later), about two months after the warranty expired, so did her copy of windows, she couldn't login to it anymore without registering it again. I grabbed the numbers off the side of the machine and punched them in, nope. I got a hold of Gateway, they said "sorry, you'll have to contact MS, we can't help you."
The only changes ever made to the machine were to increase the RAM right after she bought it and I upgraded the video card at the same time, hardware fingerprint stayed the same for over three years and the OS was never installed on another machine. Linux here I come.

Erm, your story sounds a little fishy to me...

Gateway sells OEM copies of Windows. OEM means Microsoft won't touch it...

OTOH, if you happened to have a non-OEM version, Gateway *would* send you to Microsoft...

Did you buy the machine new and straight from Gateway, or somewhere else and/or used? You might have gotten scammed if the latter...

daychilde

Gateway won't deal with WGA. Only MS will. And they will -usually- be ok, as long as you tell them all the details.


With that said, fark Vista. I'll have a copy for playing games, but I'm spending all my time in Linux. It's faster, it's better looking(configured correctly) and it's easier to use. Whats not to like?

I learned something new today from TFA . I didn't know that Windows had a warranty. This just seems like something that ought to be used and abused much more than it is.

I'm confused. What defines "a new machine"? What if I reformat and resinstall? Is that a new machine? If not, what if I swap out my motherboard? What if I swap out my CPU? Video card? Network card? Hard disk? How does this thing work?

This seems rather troublesome, if true...I find it hard to believe though. Wouldn't be the first time someone misinterpreted a Microsoft licensing agreement. Hopefully this is just another false boogeyman.

sthayashi
I didn't know that Windows had a warranty.

Some warranty - 'If it breaks, if it breaks your computer, if it breaks your business or burns down your house, TOO FARKING BAD.'

MS is trying really hard to commit corporate suicide.

/ place your 'put' orders today.

Wow. Coupled with no compelling reason to fork over x hundred dollars for a new OS that simply looks different and slows everything down, I can't understand why anyone would want to 'upgrade'

StinkyFiddlewinks

Games. DirectX10 will be Vista-only. Thats the only real reason, at this point, that I can think of.

FTFA: Under the new program, a copy of Vista that's judged to be in violation of its license...

Yeah, and that can happen how? If your connection hiccups at the right moment of the validation? If you put in a new stick of RAM? If it's Tuesday?

Christ, Windows is getting worse and worse. I only upgraded from '98 when Civ IV came out and required XP. With each edition, they are making it more and more difficult for anyone who doesn't just buy a computer and leave the box closed for five years and then throw it out. Christ, my mahcines get new parts and upgrades every few months! Which one of these would make the OS think that I got a "new" machine?

For Windows XP, Microsoft considered it a new system if you changed the motherboard. I'm guessing it'll be the same for Vista.

I haven't had any issues with Vista, until these licensing details. If I pay $400 for a farking operating system, I better be able to farking use it on my computer, regardless of how often I update it.

ccmods

StinkyFiddlewinks

Games. DirectX10 will be Vista-only. Thats the only real reason, at this point, that I can think of.

But all games will be running 15% slower then on XP so there is no reason for game developers to want to use DX10.

Hopefully this laptop's for the poor in Africa gets off the ground because they all use Linux and not windows. Hopefully this will bring down the giant of Microsuck.

Thisbymaster

Unfortunately, I'm sure DX10 will have super shader pixel model 15, which every developer will just HAVE to use, because it's easier to create a game that's pretty, than one that has actual fun content.

I see it more of a "you may as well grab it if it comes with the computer" type deal. No real reason other than this to upgrade, considering gamers will need a brand new directx 10 card (not on the market yet) if they want to use the new directx...

I am an average computer user who dual boots. Well, ok, I suppose I know more than the average but no, I would never consider myself an expert.

So, my question:

WTF does this mean, in plain, simple English (and wtf is virtualization)?

Yes, I tried wiki and it helped a bit, but I would like to hear from some actual tech people.

Please don't make the explanation too technical unless you want to watch my head asplode.

Thanks.

Ehh, I'm not concerned. If I ever need to run Vista in a virtual machine I can just download a hacked copy. I don't care if it's vulnerable (lacks all the updates) because it's running in a VM. It's unlikely to damage my box.

Cheers,
G33k

Incidentally, I have actually purchased licenses for all the copies of Windows I have now.

Also, I tend to post responses to myself all the time. It's ridiculous.

Yes, I'm aware of DX10. It's a shame that I'll probably never get to play FarCry's successor, Crysis I think it's called.

Well, not until M$ realize what a big fark-up making DX10 only for Vista is, and release the XP version.

Sucks for Crytek.

MBA Whore: Wow you havn't messed with virtualization yet? Either way its a program that litterly boots a new computer inside of a program (in many types you even see a bios and a full boot). Its sorta like emulation but its not because it passes the machine code down to the chip, but it keeps it all protected and separated as a machine inside itself. I don't completely understand it.

Big Tuna: "In their quest to eliminate piracy they're driving away legitimate customers."

I suppose that's the best way to eliminate piracy-- Make the software so crappy that noone will want to pirate it.

I've been a legitimate windows user for as long as it has existed. This Vista crap looks like its forcing me to "switch" to open source (or something.)

I had been contemplating it latetly because of the licensing issues in Vista that I read about earlier, but this does it. I'm starting a "Help me decide what version of Linux to use for the first time" TF thread right now.

Not happy.

Meh. Fark this. I still have W2K running on all but one of my computers (that one exception is a laptop that came with XP pre-installed and I didn't deem it worth the effort to wipe it and put W2K on it). My next computer will be a MacBook anyway, and depending on how happy I am with that we'll see whether my next non-laptop purchase is a PC or a Mac.

this is why I'm gonna upgrade to XP before Vista destroys the universe.

They aren't trying to "commit suicide". They're doing exactly what their bosses (i.e. stockholders) want. Maximizing profits. How are they doing this? By granulizing licensing based on features. Also moving towards the much vaunted "software as a service" model (thank Google for their pioneering work in this field..)

Before we thought of windows like a pretty bauble we pin on our coat (computer). We get a new coat? We just unpin the bauble and pin it to the new coat.

Microsoft is trying to change windows to be like the coats LINING. Do you take the lining our of your old coat when you buy a new coat? Of course not, new coats come with new lining.

Microsoft is pushing their licensing model towards where the vast majority of the customer base is. Those are individuals who end up with Vista because they buy a new computer with Vista on it. Or they have an XP system and buy a Vista upgrade.

As much as we like to think we might be, the people like us who build their own systems, transfer parts between systems, upgrade one system over and over are in the vast minority. What I will be interested in seeing will be when some smart motherboard or CPU manufacturer will cut a bulk OEM licensing deal with MS and you will start to have an option to buy your new MB/CPU combo with Windows vista for only a nominal fee more (like $40-$50)

This would basically make it an even more insidious version of the "Microsoft Tax", but of course if you're not using Vista, just don't buy the OEM bundle CPU/MB which contains it.

I really really hate MS right now. Don't you have to get a new video card just to run X10?

As much as we like to think we might be, the people like us who build their own systems, transfer parts between systems, upgrade one system over and over are in the vast minority.

Totally valid point. Thing is, as someone else pointed out, we bought it, we should be able to use it. Shouldn't matter what we change in the guts of the machine. (I know, we're getting into the territory of the fabled 100 year axe - replaced the handle 10 times, and the head 6 times, but it's still the same axe.)

Does anyone know/suspect that this will be a case where if you do a rebuild and it claims it is now valid you can call a "helpful" MS rep and get them to unlock it for you?

For example, the company that I work for has activation on one of our products, but if a customer has a system failure and needs to reinstall, they can call us and we can reset their activation. This way, they're still on one mahcine, but they get to use what they paid for.

24601:

Try one of these:

1) MEPIS (what I use)
2) Ubuntu
3) PClos

They are great for people used to M$, but who hate M$. . .although I would say Ubuntu is probably the most different of the three I listed.

Plus, these three (especially #1 and #2) have tons of online "help" communities.

MBA Whore
Virtualization, to the best of my knowledge, is marketing speak (and maybe tech speak) for being able to run 2 OSes at once. OSX on Intel chips uses virtualization to allow you to run Windows on it (and subsequently play games).

It occurs to me that I'm not certain that even game developers will want to use Vista. Consider that they do their best to make sure that their game will run on lots of different hardware configurations. If you can't change much hardware in a Vista installation, you'll find yourself buying WAY more copies of Vista than you wanted.

sthayashi Yeah, but remember - we're in the vast minority, so our gaming doesn't matter. /sarcasm


\sarcasm was for M$, not skippy

At work yesterday, my coworker told me that someone pouring over the EULA for Vista found that unless you have the ultimate edition, you aren't allowed to put an ISO on your hard drive. I haven't been able to confirm this yet, but if it's true, what bs.

So is virtualization the new word? Will I get to hear people say "Hey how about we triage that small rock by leveraging virtualization"? I can't wait.

One of the things it comes down to here is how Vista will determine that you're on a "new computer".

Will it just look for a single major hardware change? (like a new processor ID, or new Video card)? If so. Bad.

Will it look at the whole of the system and be able to tell "Oh, they just upgraded video cards"? Not so bad.

Say you have 8 possible main components of a computer. Video card, CPU, MB, Memory, Sound Card, Hard Drive, optical drive, NIC card.

How many have to change before it's considered a new system? The higher that number, the less "evil" this is. The lower that number, the more "evil" this is. Especially considering that anything other than "1" would mean you could systematically change components one at a time to "fool" it.

revskippy I like the way you think. Pretty devious. I was actually just wondering if the changing components one by one would work.

revskippy

One of the things it comes down to here is how Vista will determine that you're on a "new computer".

You rotated your monitor on your desk 90 degrees. You have a new computer.

I have run into so many headaches when I have had to reinstall windows XP on a machine where the hard drive failed. You call up Microsoft's so called voice recognition system (which does not appear to understand English) After you get fustrated enough, you get transfered to someone who cant speak English who almost calls you a thief for stealing Windows.

Hackilarity will ensue.

//MS Sucks.

Well I guess I'll be using a cracked version of Windows for the first time then. The only thing I use it for is for testing (we're a Linux shop) and it's not at all uncommon for me to swap out parts or even move that Windows OS from one machine to another.

Thank you Linux for bringing sanity to my world.

MBA Whore 24601:

Try one of these:

1) MEPIS (what I use)
2) Ubuntu
3) PClos

Yes, these OS's kick arse, especially in the eye-candy department (AIGLX and Beryl are functionally nicer than Vista AND prettier)

But they require something the typical drag-n-drool computer user lacks.

I refer, of course, to common sense and the guts to change gears once a decade.

ccmods
Games. DirectX10 will be Vista-only. Thats the only real reason, at this point, that I can think of.

Screw that. If game companies want my money they'll make stuff for Mac and Linux, it's that simple.

/If anyone needs me, I'll be playing outside.

Ok, what if your computer just totally gives it up to the point where you have to do a major hardware upgrade?

SpacePunk Ok, what if your computer just totally gives it up to the point where you have to do a major hardware upgrade?

Then you're farked like a Boobies link.


On the DirectX 10 bit...Windows will then be controling everything about it. Frame rate, etc...who wants to go for the scary thought that they'll just hobble everything to be just below the level of Xbox...?

Here's why the virtualization thing is bad, and also an example of real world use of virtualization.

Seeing as how the upcoming Vista was going to suck, and since Win2k won't play some games that I want to play, AND because my Win2k install was getting crusty... it was time to upgrade to WinXP just before Vista becomes reality.

So, I made some tweaks to my Win2k box and put the sytem drive into a USB enclosure. Then I installed WinXP on a new HD on my old box (you should never do an "overwrite" upgrade with Windows. It never works). I then installed the free edition of VMWare (best virutalization currently out).

This enabled me to have my "old" machine available in a window on my new XP install, booting from the USB drive. Need a piece of data from the "old" machine? Easy: wake the virtual machine from sleep mode, drag and drop via a virtual network share, and put the old Win2k install back to sleep.

Or: if I need to use a program that I haven't gotten around to reinstalling, I can fire up the VM and just use it there. This has worked well for programs that can't be migrated, too.

It made upgrading a snap, and I expect that someone will eventually automate the entire process for newbies that can wrap their heads around it. And you won't be able to do it with Vista.

More importantly, you won't be able to do much the same thing to make migrating to a new OS easy. Imagine that you want to take the Mac plunge, but not have to buy all your old stuff over again right away. Imagine if you could fire up your old Windows environment in a few seconds (VMs allow nearly instant "boot"), and either xfer data or actually use an old app the same way that Mac OS9 compatibility was handled?

Or take it one step further: imagine a special Mac model just for folks looking to leave Windows. You hook your new Mac via a crossover cable to the old PC. You boot a special CD that came with the Mac on the old PC... and you wait for a while. Later, you find an icon on the Mac desktop called "My Old Machine". You click on it, and your old computer desktop pops up in a window, with some niceties for moving data back and forth.

Jobs could have done this today. He won't be able to do this with Vista. This is about MS limiting your choice, and not wanting to lose its stranglehold on your data.

jh

Microsoft could probably double their profitability if they fired their legal and marketing departments.

picturescrazy: At work yesterday, my coworker told me that someone pouring over the EULA for Vista found that unless you have the ultimate edition, you aren't allowed to put an ISO on your hard drive. I haven't been able to confirm this yet, but if it's true, what bs.

BS. I saw the same story and the idiots did not clarify that it is an .iso of the windows Vista CD that you cannot copy. I seriously doubt that there is anything to stop you from creating one, just "it would be a violation of the EULA" bs.

Clarfication of my post: You can create, move, store, whatever .isos on your POS Windows Vista machine.

It is a violation of the low end Vista packages EULA to create an .iso of the Vista install DVD, not any other software CD/DVD you want to.

Someone didn't fact check. From TFA:

Update, Fri. Oct 13, 11:00 am: The initial version of this story erroneously mischaracterized the way Microsoft's Vista license applies to user of the OS in a virtual machine, stating that there was a blanket ban in effect. This is incorrect; we regret the error. The updated version of this story removes all references to a VM ban, including a change in the headline, removal of a virtual machine reference in the lead paragraph, and the deletion of the fifth and sixth paragraphs of the original story.]