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(NY Sun)   Nobel Peace Prize winner actually does something useful: Elie Wiesel moves to have Iran thrown out of the UN   (nysun.com) divider line 301
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13496 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Sep 2006 at 11:26 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-09-14 01:20:41 AM
No they are not Crazy....they are adept at manipulating our fears
 
2006-09-14 01:21:26 AM
WhyteRaven74
There is no excuse for Taiwan not beng allowed membership.

Yes there is -- because they have not ever declared themselves an independent nation. They still declare themselves the real government of both Taiwan and China.

Effectively, China/Taiwan both agree there is only one nation, they each claim to be the rightful government of that nation. And the fact that the PRC effectively controls 99% of the land makes them the recognized government.

When Taiwan did have a place in the UN, they were the UN representative for both Taiwan and China.

If Taiwan ever actually declares independence, and is recognized as an independent nation, then they could ask for a seat. The best they can do in the current situation would be an observer status, similar to Palestine.
 
2006-09-14 01:21:29 AM
ericjohnson0: elchip, you shouldn't 'booze and blog' at the same time... gets a wee bit dangerous...

Nah, I don't drink.

Usually.
 
2006-09-14 01:21:58 AM
WhyteRaven74
There is no excuse for Taiwan not beng allowed membership


actually, there is. taiwan is not a country/nation. that makes it hard to join the UNITED NATIONS.
 
2006-09-14 01:23:21 AM
ericjohnson0

paleocons are the one that believe that fossils are real?
 
2006-09-14 01:24:20 AM
effhead
they don't abide by current resolutions now, why would they then?

If Israel doesn't abide by international law, Israel should be sanctioned and forced to comply, just like anyone else.

i thought that they were knocking down settlements

Of course you did! That was most likely a motivator behind the Gaza pullout: evacuate the comparatively worthless Gaza scrubland so the media can push that angle instead of the new settlements being built in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which were the (much larger and better situated) places Israel's colonists were interested in to begin with.

The WB and Jerusalem settlements, I should note, are still being built and expanded to this day.

seems that they only started letting them rebuild after palestinians effed the agreement in place by starting up suicide bombings again.

Actually, HAMAS successfully maintained a cease-fire with Israel for well over a year and a half, during which time Israel constantly refused their requests of negotiation. During the entire time, illegal settlement activity was still on-going.

your "depends on who you ask" statement isn't worth treating.

No, it would not be very comfortable to admit that the Zionist settlers are, for the most part, trying to recreate Eretz Israel, the ancient homeland. Not trying to defend their people by placing themselves as human shields in the front lines of a decades-long conflict. Not that it would be OK if they were.
 
2006-09-14 01:25:15 AM
Badassador: Will do.
 
2006-09-14 01:25:42 AM
Sum Dum Gai
If Taiwan ever actually declares independence


BOOM
 
2006-09-14 01:27:49 AM
effhead


actually, there is. taiwan is not a country/nation. that makes it hard to join the UNITED NATIONS.


Actually, the Republic of China has been a nation since 1912.
 
2006-09-14 01:30:01 AM
I'd love to agree with him, but he's such a Wiesel....
 
2006-09-14 01:30:39 AM
Zevatron
Actually, the Republic of China has been a nation since 1912.

Except they no longer have any control over 99% of the territory they claim to be the government of. Hence their government's status, officially, is that of a toppled ex-government.
 
2006-09-14 01:30:43 AM
mrexcess
If Israel doesn't abide by international law, Israel should be sanctioned and forced to comply, just like anyone else.


i agree with that, but it doesn't happen now, nor should we expect it to miraculously happen in the immediate future.

and you apparently know more specifics about the settlements than i do, so my typing about that has come to an end.
 
2006-09-14 01:32:02 AM
Zevatron

Sum Dum Gai
And the fact that the PRC effectively controls 99% of the land makes them the recognized government.
 
2006-09-14 01:32:14 AM
If this were a court case, someone's arguments would be barred by the unclean hands rule.
 
2006-09-14 01:32:56 AM
Occulto: True enough, perhaps it is all just a means of population control.
 
2006-09-14 01:34:30 AM
RanDomino: Oh, now, the rank-and-file of the German military were just poor fools who thought they were doing the right thing but just believed their leaders' many lies. There's little difference between a German soldier in France in 1941 and an American soldier in Iraq today- Would you advocate the murder of our poor fools?

Oh, our poor fools. The condescension drips off that statement like melty ice cream. I like the assertion that Germans had no idea what was going on, though. Hitler was a lot of things, but he was not a liar- he outlined the plan right there in his book.
 
2006-09-14 01:34:57 AM
effhead
i agree with that, but it doesn't happen now, nor should we expect it to miraculously happen in the immediate future.

We shouldn't expect a miracle to enforce international law, I agree. We should, however, demand it be done, and accept nothing less.
 
2006-09-14 01:36:56 AM
Sum Dum Gai [TotalFark]

Except they no longer have any control over 99% of the territory they claim to be the government of. Hence their government's status, officially, is that of a toppled ex-government.


But the ROC controls 100% of Taiwan, which the PRC has never controlled.
 
2006-09-14 01:37:06 AM
Sum Dum Gai: Hence their government's status, officially, is that of a toppled ex-government.


I dunno.. ROC has a population of 23 million, GDP of $27,000 per capita, economic growth rate of 4%, unemploymetn rate of 4%... I wonder how many non-toppled governments can claim such statistics.
 
2006-09-14 01:38:04 AM
Amenijad (spelling, don't care) is going to lead the UN in a rousing verse of "Throw the Jew down the Well."

Every country will join in except Israel, which will stand in the corner angrily, with his arms crossed.
 
2006-09-14 01:39:04 AM
Iran wants nuclear power/weapons: SCREAM and SHOUT, and kick them out of the UN.

Israel builds an immense nuclear arsenal, conducts a terrorist war against Lebanese civilians, and kills the Palestinians and steals their land on a daily basis: give those criminals a Hero tag or something.

Submitter + Greenlighter + Elie Wiesel + anyone who agrees with them = pure trash.
 
2006-09-14 01:40:49 AM
FuturePastNow
German and American Military, blah blah

You see, these people have been saying 'Bush is a Nazi' or 'Bush is Hitler' for so long, they now believe it... therefore, by default, our troops, in their twisted minds, are now equivalent to the Nazi Wehrmacht and SS, and therefore, contemptible.

Sad, but this is what happens to minds that ingest a steady diet of leftwing, anti-American bullshiat.
 
2006-09-14 01:42:09 AM
And since you say I seem to know my stuff on the settlements, and I try to, let me tell you this without doubt: the settlements are illegal and wrong in the worst way. They're a violation of the Palestinians' most basic and essential rights, and our complicity in perpetuating that system will eventually come to stand as one of our more embarassing choices in the present era. Our committment to our own ideology of freedom and the rule of law are called into direct and serious question by our enabling of Israel in this regard. It jeopardizes our foreign policy, our bully pulpit, our credibility in the eyes of the planet. And it makes us partially responsible for a brutal oppression of millions of innocents, and the deaths of many many thousands. It's a major reason why citizens of nations in the middle east take such a dim, skeptical view of us.
 
2006-09-14 01:46:34 AM
Badassador

True enough, perhaps it is all just a means of population control.

I honestly think it's as banal as that. All this fiery rhetoric sounds about as plausible as George W's chest thumping over the "War on Terror." It makes them sound decisive and strong, but there's actually very little to back it up.

It's funny hearing people who, in one thread rave about lying politicians who can't be trusted. Yet those same people take the words of the Iranian leadership as pure 100% gospel.

What? Muslims are incapable of having duplicitous scumbags as leaders?
 
P0e
2006-09-14 01:47:37 AM
BUrp
I'm one of those former students. BU has this "core track" that covers your general ed requirements with 2 classes a semester for freshman/sophomore years. One of the HUGE highlights in the first semester of the freshman year is Wiesel's talk on the book of Job. I don't think class attendance was ever higher, and I don't think I've walked out of a talk with more respect for a man of faith.
He also gives mutliple talks that are broadcast on the BU webradio station.

As a side note, I doubt the man has a hateful bone in his entire body. After being what he's been through, and having an outlook to prevent that, rather than being angry and wanting revenge, is above 99.9% of the people in this world.

I mean, come on. The man won a farking nobel peace prize. I doubt he'd do anything like this lightly without actually really thinking about the ramifications first.
 
2006-09-14 01:48:51 AM
mrexcess: And since you say I seem to know my stuff on the settlements, and I try to, let me tell you this without doubt: the settlements are illegal and wrong in the worst way. They're a violation of the Palestinians' most basic and essential rights, and our complicity in perpetuating that system will eventually come to stand as one of our more embarassing choices in the present era. Our committment to our own ideology of freedom and the rule of law are called into direct and serious question by our enabling of Israel in this regard. It jeopardizes our foreign policy, our bully pulpit, our credibility in the eyes of the planet. And it makes us partially responsible for a brutal oppression of millions of innocents, and the deaths of many many thousands. It's a major reason why citizens of nations in the middle east take such a dim, skeptical view of us.

I share your opinion in general, but you run the risk of exaggerating the situation and you also seem to ignore the fact that Israel, more than anything, acts as a lightning rod for the leaders of Islamic countries to deflect blame from their corruption.

You think Bashar Assad really cares about the Palestinians? Yeah, right.
 
2006-09-14 01:49:58 AM
elchip: im cool with that... i want the one in the middle.
 
2006-09-14 01:51:15 AM
elchip
run the risk of exaggerating the situation

How so?

You think Bashar Assad really cares about the Palestinians?

It isn't about Bashar Assad, it's about his people. And yes, I do think they tend to care about the Palestinians, and to see them as a bellweather for the treatment of other Arabs/Muslims by "the West".
 
2006-09-14 01:51:25 AM
To clarify my statement about exaggerating:

When I think of violating someone's "most basic and essential rights," I think of the Holocaust, I think of the Armenian genocide, I think of the Serbian attempts at ethnic cleansing, I think of China's attempts at suppressing the Falun Gong.

Comparing any of these to the Palestinian situation is simply disingenuous.

It may just be that we have different ideas when we think about "most basic and essential rights."
 
2006-09-14 01:56:32 AM
I have one word to add to this thread:

Rwanda.
 
2006-09-14 01:57:27 AM
elchip
Comparing any of these to the Palestinian situation is simply disingenuous.

Is it? Do you have any idea how many Palestinians have been kidnapped, tortured, murdered in cold blood under color of IDF uniforms during the past 30+ years? The numbers may not match the millions dead in the holocaust of the NAZIs, or have culminated in a "final solution" killing millions in one fell swoop, but the character is not all that much different. The desire to sweep away an ethnic group from "your" land, which is really their land. The casual disregard for human rights. The dehumanization. The ghettoization. The propaganda and duplicity.

No, frankly...I do not see such a comparison as wholly disingenuous. Again, certainly, the numbers don't match...but for me it is not so much a question of how many as of intent and result.
 
2006-09-14 02:06:58 AM
We need another Lee Harvey Oswald on Sept. 20... 'nuff said.
 
2006-09-14 02:09:31 AM
Isolation never works. Take Cuba and the Iraq oil for food program as examples of failed isolation.
 
2006-09-14 02:30:39 AM
I knew Farkers were nuts but until I read this thread I never realised just how nuts they are. What a gaggle of haters from the left and right.
 
2006-09-14 02:45:41 AM
Wow, this sort of thing is the exact opposite of what the real solution should be. If you want peace, that is. C'mon, people, take an introductory class about international politics. Isolating nations will not bring about the results you want. That you can take my word on.
 
2006-09-14 02:47:19 AM
"Irony" tag is more appropriate, as Israel is far more "defiant" of the UN than Iran
 
2006-09-14 03:15:01 AM
Tatsuma

It's against the charter of the UN to threaten another member with destruction.

Charter members aren't supposed to ignore the UN's resolutions either, but that hasn't ever stopped the US or Israel from going on their merry way.
 
2006-09-14 03:26:02 AM
ericjohnson0

Do you ever say anything that matches up with reality?

Just because I don't support gay marriage doesn't mean I want them ... discriminated against or anything.

Yes, yes it does. Treating a group of people like second-class citizens just because you don't like them is pretty much the epitome of discrimination.
 
2006-09-14 03:38:31 AM
Murkanen

Charter members aren't supposed to ignore the UN's resolutions either, but that hasn't ever stopped the US or Israel from going on their merry way.

Funny that you should mention the US and Israel but not Iran in reference to defying UN resolutions. . .
 
2006-09-14 03:46:55 AM
Penis.

/drunk
 
2006-09-14 03:47:04 AM
ericjohnson0

My his Reich, his views, his religion and his sympathizers rot in a dark corner of hell for all eternity.

Well there goes Christianity.
 
2006-09-14 03:50:39 AM
Murkanen

Yes, yes it does. Treating a group of people like second-class citizens just because you don't like them is pretty much the epitome of discrimination.

Huh? How is being opposed to gay marriage treating a group of people like second-class citizens? If the people decide that the heterosexual version of marriage is the one they want the state to officially recongnise, then that's democracy for you.

I mean, are we treating polygamists like second-class citizens by not officially recognising polygamous marriages?
 
2006-09-14 03:51:52 AM
Some people just don't understand democracy. Sure, I'd love to throw the republicans out of our govt, but that's not how democracy works.

In a democracy, you have to deal with the a-holes to resolve your differences. As hard as the republicans are trying to turn back the clock on human progress, I still don't think it will happen. We'll eventually get our democracy back. Remember? That's the one where the three branches of govt check and balance each other, rather than parrot each other. And eventually we'll start to LEAD the world back to democracy, rather than PUSH the world around in a feudal, might is right model.

Remember when we were the shining light, showing all the world the way?

Man! Them were the days, eh?
 
2006-09-14 03:57:32 AM
Diablo1399

Funny that you should mention the US and Israel but not Iran in reference to defying UN resolutions. . .

That would be because the comment I was responding to dealt with Iran already. Personally I don't think anyone should violate UN charters or resolutions if they are signatories or members (yeah I know, it's a pipe dream). However, using a misquoted line of text (links are above that go to farsi experts explaining what was really said) in an attempt to justify kicking one member out, when there are real and more blatent violations being performed by the places that support said removal is hypocritical.
 
2006-09-14 03:59:42 AM
Yeah, because encouraging them to live like we do and forcing their entire economy to be dependant on our trade will never ensure we control them behind the scenes...
 
2006-09-14 04:02:21 AM
Diablo1399

Huh? How is being opposed to gay marriage treating a group of people like second-class citizens?


If it's not screamingly obvious already, then it's unlikely anyone will ever be able to explain it to you.

If the people decide that the heterosexual version of marriage is the one they want the state to officially recongnise, then that's democracy for you.

This is the kind of argument that can be used to justify things like segregating schools by race, owning slaves or, really, pretty much everything at all.

I mean, are we treating polygamists like second-class citizens by not officially recognising polygamous marriages?

A qualitative difference exists for the State between polygamist and monogamist marriages, while no such difference exists between heterosexual and homosexual marriages.


I have no problem if the Church doesn't want to recognise homosexual marriage. Since it's an organisation fundamentally based on discrimination, that's to be expected.

The State, however, has no rational basis for denying people a marriage contract, when the only difference between theirs and a legal marriage is the gender of the participants. It's a textbook example of discrimination without justification and has no place in modern society.
 
2006-09-14 04:06:26 AM
FuturePastNow
Hitler was a lot of things, but he was not a liar

???
He invented the Big Lie!
 
2006-09-14 04:06:51 AM
Diablo1399

Huh? How is being opposed to gay marriage treating a group of people like second-class citizens?

Because Loving vs Virginia already clarified that marriage is a civil right, without prefacing it with what genders it is limited to.

If the people decide that the heterosexual Christian/Jewish/Islamic version of marriage is the one they want the state to officially recongnise, then that's democracy for you.

It's a good thing civil rights aren't up for democratic vote then isn't it?

I mean, are we treating polygamists like second-class citizens by not officially recognising polygamous marriages?

In my opinion? Yes. However, it will be easier to get same-sex marriages covered since they won't require any changes to tax-law or other ordinances. Progress requires small steps, step to far to fast and you'll wind up tripping. I mean, look at how long it took the 14th amendment to get applied to the extent that it has, and there are still laws on the books that violate it.
 
2006-09-14 04:34:23 AM
Murkanen
Because Loving vs Virginia already clarified that marriage is a civil right, without prefacing it with what genders it is limited to.

It's a good thing civil rights aren't up for democratic vote then isn't it?


This isn't an issue of civil rights, here. Gay people are allowed to have relationships with each other, just like straight people are. Lawrence v Texas established this.

What you're asking is that the state should officially recognise gay relationships as "marriages" that are equivalent to heterosexual "marriages". This requires a democratic majority, which the gay lobby does not currently have.
 
2006-09-14 04:45:00 AM
WOW, that is really sad. Mr. Weisel was such a hero and now he has been reduced to supporting the same hateful propaganda that he fought against. Real peaceful Elie. Guess its not Fascism or "Ethnic Cleansing" when Israel does it.

Once again, the religion of one-sided hippocratic justice since 900BC.
 
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