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(Local6)   Study shows that almost 90 percent of Americans believe in the FSM or some other flying monster   (local6.com) divider line 1050
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19277 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Sep 2006 at 2:28 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-09-11 04:18:48 PM
muninsfire so the bible is inconsistent. But it is perfect. But it is inconsistent.

nd you need to look up the meme "troll" before you throw it around. Someone is not merely a troll because he points out a fallacy in your beleif system.
 
2006-09-11 04:18:49 PM
Whether or not it can be conclusively proven that God doesn't exist is irrelevant. It's up the person making the claim, i.e. that God exists, to prove said claim, not the people making the claim that he doesn't. That's how it works. Those are the farking rules.
 
2006-09-11 04:18:51 PM
Mekongcola: BTW: in Massachusetts they CAN get married...What does god say about that?

"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto G-d that which is G-d's", as I recall.
 
2006-09-11 04:19:10 PM
untrustworthy: You are always free to believe in the divine, as science will never completely be able to disprove that which can not be tested.

Even if it is just the placebo effect, spirituality and beliefs do seem to have the power to shape people's experiences. Just having a positive worldview can shorten the duration of an illness. People dismiss this phenomenon, when I think that this is the one we should be looking at! It's sort of like the roulette wheel at a casino: it changes the odds ever so slightly in your favor, but that's often all it takes.
 
2006-09-11 04:19:14 PM
www.drunken-ninja.com
 
2006-09-11 04:19:23 PM
absoluteparanoia: Let me guess, it's God!

Or maybe by some executive officer. Except all the decisions OF that officer must be ratified by a one half vote in the case of purely domestic affairs, or a two thirds vote in the case of...


23 judges make up a typical Halakhic (sp?) court.
 
2006-09-11 04:19:49 PM
I have a feeling that study is bullshiat.
 
2006-09-11 04:19:50 PM
BlindMan

Ergo strict atheism is not a logical conclusion. You might have been trying to be snarky but congratulations - you've just grasped it.

Thanks! Does this mean I win a free trip to Heaven?
 
2006-09-11 04:20:05 PM
Barbecue Bob: get of your high horses and realize you don't know crap about anydamnthing. Life is too complicated and our minds are too feeble to understand why it's happening. Your wasting priceless time fretting about it.

If your mind is too feeble to understand the principles of philosophy, then kindly STFU. Adults are trying to hold a conversation in here.
 
2006-09-11 04:20:05 PM
You guys are reading way to much into me statement that God is ridiculous. I don't need scientific proof that God doesn't exist because if you told me the Moon was made of green cheese or that the sun was made out of glowing dog shiat I would dismiss it out of hand as ridiculous. You may judge me as lazy or stupid for thinking that way but I don't need to logically prove to myself that the Christian God doesn't exist. I know he doesn't because the very notion is ludicrous. I don't preach that, that's just my personal view.

That said I am 100% agnostic. I believe that if there is a higher power it is absolutely not comprehensible by any human therefore it is irrelevent.
 
2006-09-11 04:20:20 PM
"People who post lists like yours make me scoff."

Why? It's all listed in the bible, word for word...
 
2006-09-11 04:20:33 PM
Tatsuma

The word has a numerical value of 600. Each tassel has eight threads (once you doubled them) and five sets of knots, for a total of 13. 613 is the number of mitzvot. Everytime you see the tzitzit, you should be remind of the mitzvot (incidently, there are 365 positive mitzvot, who correspond to the days of the year, so that everyday you should be reminded to make a mitzvah, and there are 248 negative mitzvot, which represent the halachic divisions in your body, so that whenever you want to commit a transgression, your whole body fights against it)

*yawn* oh my, I suddenly feel so sleepy. Please continue, the minutae of Jewish knots is so fascinating. I'm just going to rest my eyes for a minute, it doesn't mean that I'm not listening...*snore*....

Mr. Clarence Butterworth

Tatsuma is a snobby Jew, because very few Jews at large measure up to his standards Jewishness.

You mean they're Jewish newbies, aka "j00bs"?
 
2006-09-11 04:21:13 PM
Cerebral Ballsy: muninsfire so the bible is inconsistent. But it is perfect. But it is inconsistent.

Well, Jews say it's consistent because they don't believe the New Testament is legitimate.

Christians say it's consistent because the New Testament overrides the entire Old Testament because of the whole Messianic dying thing.
 
2006-09-11 04:21:21 PM
2006-09-11 04:09:42 PM BlindMan [TotalFark]

The only reason Pascal's wager is not 100% airtight is because you can conceive of a god that punishes you for trying to know him/do his will. Unless we seriously believe this proposition is as likely as a god who is indifferent or better to you attempts, the argument holds.

This is nonsense. What if the true God is some deity completely separated from the Abrahamic tradition, and has set up an afterlife structured thus:

1) True believers get the ultimate reward
2) Non-believers are placed in an area of limbo
3) Active believers in false gods get the ultimate punishment

In this case, I (as an atheist) would spend the afterlife with the virtuous pagans and unbaptized infants, discussing poetry with Virgil, whereas Christians would be tortured for all eternity, because they backed the wrong horse.

Pascal's Wager falls flat on its face because it's built upon an obviously false assumption; namely, that either Christianity is true or there is no god (or gods) at all. It's a piece of pseudo-cleverness that's wrapped around the innate sadism of the historical Christian concept of the afterlife, but it makes no allowances for the possibility that perhaps the Christians and the atheists both have it wrong.
 
2006-09-11 04:21:22 PM
muninsfire: I'm going to have to agree on the 'typical asshole' assessment. Especially with the 'go get some' terminator, which I've only ever seen employed by virgins or by those who have only had it given them out of pity.

I think his denial was actually proof of his assholishness.
 
2006-09-11 04:21:27 PM
absoluteparanoia: At least belief in science is one of evolving knowledge and self-discovery.

Don't you think the path of Enlightenment in Buddhism is a similar thing? Or that that's what all the mystics meditate to discover? There are different kinds of knowledges just like there are different kinds of experiences. Interpretation is a fundamental part of experience.
 
2006-09-11 04:21:37 PM
wh0mprat: I agree. However, neither can the positive assertion that God exists. The only logically consistent position one can take is "I'll believe it when I see it".

Anything else is irrationally credulous.


If you believe this why the hell have we been arguing at all?
 
2006-09-11 04:21:38 PM
Cerebral Ballsy: muninsfire so the bible is inconsistent. But it is perfect. But it is inconsistent.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, and using the text to point out the inconsistencies in the dogmatical, literal interpretations.

Any text which is not meant to be interpreted literally that people insist on interpreting literally is going to appear to be inconsistent. The fault lies not with the text, but with the dimwits doing the interpreting.

nd you need to look up the meme "troll" before you throw it around. Someone is not merely a troll because he points out a fallacy in your beleif system.

Pop quiz! What 'religion' do I identify as?

And I full well know what a troll is--someone who tries to incite a flamewar out of a sense that it will make them feel 'important', but who ends up looking like a total jackoff.

*My* belief system tends to be fairly consistent, for the record--but I rarely argue from it, because it's reasonable, and everyone ends up agreeing with me in the end. ^^;
 
2006-09-11 04:22:17 PM
Quickski

apology accepted.

it isn't about who is right or who is wrong, it is about how we live. That's what I am trying to get at. Religion is dumb, but Faith is neccessary to our existance as human beings, no matter what you have faith in.
We need explanations, it doesn't matter which ones you believe.
the only definite thing in our world is morality. That's all whatever power may be wants, is for us to be moral beings. Everyting else is secondary to that.
 
2006-09-11 04:22:25 PM
It has been a long time since I studied all this stuff, but I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Yahweh was one of a pantheon of desert gods, and that he was associated with the wind.

Of course, that was waaaaay back in college when I was working on my worthless History of Religions major, and who knows what the source for that info was? Sure glad I spent all that time studying different religions, though. It has come in quite handy in my work as a computer programmer, and has also made it impossible to have faith in any religion.

Kind of hard to believe in any religion when you see how much they borrow from cultures that came before them. "Hey, they had a flood myth. We should have a flood myth, too!"
 
2006-09-11 04:22:50 PM
i'm with Notalking_justhead.
 
2006-09-11 04:23:23 PM
Religion is for cowards who can't handle reality.
W.Blows
 
2006-09-11 04:23:28 PM
Mekongcola: Why? It's all listed in the bible, word for word...

Because you're just like Bevets, but from the other side.

And nobody takes Bevets seriously.

untrustworthy: I think his denial was actually proof of his assholishness.

Agreed.

absoluteparanoia: If you believe this why the hell have we been arguing at all?

Isn't it funny how deep down, all these positions are really pretty much the same?
 
2006-09-11 04:23:44 PM
czarangelus: Even if it is just the placebo effect, spirituality and beliefs do seem to have the power to shape people's experiences. Just having a positive worldview can shorten the duration of an illness. People dismiss this phenomenon, when I think that this is the one we should be looking at! It's sort of like the roulette wheel at a casino: it changes the odds ever so slightly in your favor, but that's often all it takes.

Sure. The mind is a very powerful organ. It can often cause anxiety/illness/etc all on its own. And it has been shown that a positive attitude or a healthy state of mind can help one's physical being. But none of this suggests that we were created by a divine being.
 
2006-09-11 04:24:01 PM
Old Testament laws were meant for Old Testament people. When the Israelites left Egypt, they carried a lot of spiritual baggage with them. If certain behaviors, such as breaking sabbath, became socially accepted, the entirety of Gods chosen people may have lost their belief and never returned to God. Strict rules were needed at this time, so they were given.

Not every verse or book of scripture is filled with timeless truth, some of it is just an update to certain people at a certain time.
 
2006-09-11 04:24:06 PM
You have to believe something doesn't exist, don't you?

Invisible pink unicorns don't exist.
Does that mean I must believe invisible pink unicorns don't exist?
No. Pink unicorns don't exist, and I don't need to BELIEVE they don't exist for them to not exist.
 
2006-09-11 04:24:10 PM
czarangelus: Interpretation is a fundamental part of experience.

/FYP
 
2006-09-11 04:24:28 PM
Blindman
If we want to transmute that to my analogy, that's to say - you might not go to the hospital because you believe that the hospital will intentionally poison you for seeking treatment there.


What I took you to mean is that accepting the guy's statement about rthe poison and going to the hospital would be a concrete demonstration of your faith in his words.

But you'd just be going because you're afraid you're going to die. As soon as you're checked out, and are no longer in danger, you go back to the status quo.

That's why I thought of it as Pascal's wager - faith through fear and playing the odds. Except in this version, you can find out if you were right or wrong :)
 
2006-09-11 04:24:34 PM
WBlows: Religion is for cowards people who can't handle prefer to see reality in a different way.

Fixed the assholeishness for you.
 
2006-09-11 04:24:36 PM
BlindMan
That whole no atheists in foxholes thing is crap. I have met them. I was not there at the time they were in the foxhole but I am damn sure that it did not change them that much. I have been close to death and it did not make me anything else. I am still a diest. I have family members who have died not believing in god. I think this disproves that little notion.
 
2006-09-11 04:24:37 PM
Hmmm... looks like you guys are flaming fine on your own.

Someone call me if you need some fuel thrown on the fire.

\I hate zealots
\\religios, athiest, environmental, naturalist
\\\all of them
 
2006-09-11 04:24:37 PM
WBlows: Religion is for cowards who can't handle reality.

Think that up all by yourself? Pat yourself on the back, retard.
 
2006-09-11 04:25:13 PM
People are dividing the atheists up incorrectly, the true division is:

Social Atheists: Use atheism as a way to look intellectual, disparage others, and pick up chicks.

Real Atheists: Have been through a number of long nights looking into the chasm of terminal existence, and decided despite the discomfort that comes with the knowledge of one's own mortality, that there just is no basis for belief in a divine power.

For my part, I only go after the believers when they try to codify their belief into law, or attempt to use their belief to elevate themselves above their neighbors.

When it comes right down to it, there does not seem to be any proof that God exists. It is also illogical to assume that you can prove that God does not exist.

But, I have not seen anything that would indicate that any God is having a direct effect upon life here on Earth. And, even if there is a God, that does not go very far in expanding our understanding of the world around us. The will of an unknowable God (God moves in mysterious ways) does not promote exploration and discovery. It is an intellectual dead end. So, whether he exists or not, I don't see any reason to base policy on him.
 
2006-09-11 04:25:17 PM
\\\\errr... religious
 
2006-09-11 04:25:27 PM
skinny-lil-b: Yes, cuz I seem to remember a lot of atheist on death row. Many of them, like McVeigh, received last rites from a Roman Catholic priest.

Yes, you're right. Most cocky and arrogant atheists spew their filth when they're safe and secure in their conceit. But when their time to die comes, they aren't so sure.

Short Version: There are no atheists in foxholes.
 
2006-09-11 04:25:38 PM
MadAsshatter: Mediaho, agreed. BTW, what do you think about the people biatching about christmas stuff and how it "offends" them?

No one has a right to not be offended so if that's the actual claim (and it's not about government endorsement) then they need to piss off.

Christmas to me is not a religious event as much as a time to gather with family and be thankful that I have a family. I don't understand why it has to have such a religious connotation to people, both pro and con. The same with the use of "God" in things like the pledge of allegiance. "God" can be taken to mean anything you want, not necessarily the christian form, or any other religion.

I gotta disagree here. No matter what Christmas is to you, it's a Christian religous holiday and I don't know how "God" (with a capital G) can be interpreted as anything other than an Abrahamic deity.
 
2006-09-11 04:25:55 PM
Tatsuma-"elchip Exodus 18:11
Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods."


Elchip has a point. It could just as easily have been said that the Lord is the only god, just as it was said in the shema: "the Lord is one." There, is that so hard? This is why I tend to believe, which I guess makes me an apikores, that the Torah was put together from several sources, some of whom were actually polytheistic originally.
 
2006-09-11 04:26:28 PM
muninsfire: Isn't it funny how deep down, all these positions are really pretty much the same?

Truely
 
2006-09-11 04:26:55 PM
letrole

Something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


So you're ACTUALLY just aiming at the hard-atheists (or "gnostic atheists" as we've used the phrase earlier) who have a strict passion about espousing their beliefs. (Which, for reference, is NOT analogous to people who are vocally concerned with church/state separation issues, want to clarify misrepresentations, or are interested in debating in general...)

On that point, I'm sure most would agree. ANY point of belief taken to extremes can get the "made a religion of" descriptor tossed at an individual. Of course that is how that subject is treated for that individual--not what the subject is treated in general. Going right back to the example for the definition you pulled; just how many people would call "fighting predjudice" a religion if you polled them out of nowhere as a Y/N question?

Uh-huh.

So howsabout you stop using it as a blanket statement attempting to berate all atheists, since the vast majority don't fall under even that ONE minor--"using religion as an adjective"--definition you could pull out? At least before someone accuses you of making a religion out of "trying to make everyone think atheism is a religion and failing at it."
 
2006-09-11 04:27:01 PM
untrustworthy
hmmm, i'm not sure i get your point, but oh well... cheers.
 
2006-09-11 04:27:08 PM
I have to have some faith in my fellow human beings based solely on some of the very intelligent things in this thread. Even the believers tend to be respectful and sharp.

I would just like to note that the very concept of a human being being the literal son of a non-human being is incoherent, and someone has a lot of work to do if they can explain how the execution of that son is supposed to actually be a good thing for those who allowed it to happen. I understand the notion of a blood sacrifice, but since in this story it would be the one granting the pardon who allows his child to be sacrificed, I don't quite get how it is supposed to work. Also, since said paternal figure is supposed to be the creator of all human beings, it's unclear how the one human being is created differently.

Note that I'm not questioning the simple miracle of impregnating a virgin, but am raising doubts as to the character of the other half of the boy's genetic material. What does it mean for sperm to be divine?

The world will never know. But then, we will never know what color Hamlet's hair is, either.
 
2006-09-11 04:27:14 PM
Dammit....some Atheists were just at my door trying to get me to convert to their Faith in No God. Did I miss anything?
 
2006-09-11 04:27:21 PM
Oklahoma Man the Recipient of His Comeuppance

COLGATE: In what can only be described as a freak mishap, Farker Tiresias2006 was killed on Trinity Road today when his car, a Volkswagen Rabbit, was sideswiped by New York Islanders right winger Miroslav Satan. Tiresias' car lept over the Crest of a nearby hill, slamming into a Pole on the North side of the street.

"Ty had a huge blind spot," said his friend, Jesus del Dios. "He was always such a jackass, but i loved him."
 
2006-09-11 04:27:23 PM
absoluteparanoia: Interpretation is a fundamental part of experience.

/FYP


Interpretation is whether the solder in your sights is a terrorist or a freedom fighter. I think that is more important to the human experience of reality than what quarks are made of.
 
2006-09-11 04:27:36 PM
Funkmaster Frank

Whether or not it can be conclusively proven that God doesn't exist is irrelevant. It's up the person making the claim, i.e. that God exists, to prove said claim, not the people making the claim that he doesn't. That's how it works. Those are the farking rules.

Exactly. Anyone who disagrees with this is trying to pull a fast one on you. Consider it this way: if it were otherwise (i.e., if God existed until proven not to exist), then ALL the various deities man has worshipped would presumptively exist unless proven to not exist. Zeus, Thor, Allah, Huitzilopochtli, Artemis, Isis, etc. - they all have an equal claim to existance as the Judeo-Christian god. What makes the Judeo-Christian God specially entitled to a presumption of existance, and the other gods of mankind's various religions unentitled to that presumption? Nothing. Therefore, assuming God exists or may exist without any evidence to support that claim is fallacious.
 
2006-09-11 04:27:47 PM
absoluteparanoia
If you believe this why the hell have we been arguing at all?

To disabuse you of the notion that atheism is faith.
 
2006-09-11 04:27:49 PM
Also remember that the bible was edited by the church and MANY original text were taken out. Also, remember that "hell" was created by "Dante's Inferno" and "inserted" into the bible as a way to further coarse people into believing it...

Do you due diligence if you're a "believer", the bible is a scam, and a poor one at that...
 
2006-09-11 04:27:55 PM
Notalking_justhead That's the best part of science. It does not claim to know. Scientists are merely saying something like "The evidence we have that the universe is expanding and spreading out seems to suggest that if we run a model of it in reverse, everything comes from the same point. In fact, if the universe were crowded together in this point it could not sustain itself. The mas of the Universe would force it to implode on itself. So.. all we're saying is that the model appears to come together if we run it in reverse."

You never know. There could be another unverse everything came from. There could be an invisible being that brought it forth. But I do not see any evidence eithr way, and I don't beleive humans are the center of the universe. I don't beleive in a God that seems to have purely human motives and emotions.
 
2006-09-11 04:28:06 PM
Oh, so this is where everyone went.

Ick. I continue to persist in the folly of thinking that this once-great nation can be saved from itself, but eventually I'm either going to be swept under, or I'm going to have to wise up and realize that the rational, free-thinking and generally the non-Christian aren't really welcome here any more.

This isn't the United States of America that was founded after the Revolutionary War. This isn't even the United States that survived the Civil War, or defended liberty from the Axis.

This is a new, ugly, evangelical nation, with an anti-intellectual streak a mile wide and a surfeit of faith that leaves little or no room for reason or any sort of worldview with more than two shades. This is a nation that would happily give up liberty for security, and so will have neither; and a nation that is rapidly succumbing to the grossest sort of tyranny of the majority.

I love this nation. My family, at least on one side, has lived here for longer than anyone can trace. I don't want to give up on what used to be the greatest place the world has ever seen.

But it seems that now, America doesn't want you around if you prefer thought to prayer or education to alarmism and jingoism.

So what do you do when your homeland doesn't want you any more? It's a damn tough question. I don't want to have to answer it, but if things keep going the way they're going, in another decade or two I expect I'll either have to convert or flee, whether it's flight from an unwanted, unjust war, or just from witch-hunts for "atheist traitors."

I hear northern Europe has the highest standard of living of anywhere in the world.

I wonder how difficult it is to naturalize in Belgium these days.
 
2006-09-11 04:28:07 PM
Notalking_justhead: even if you believe in the big bang, where did the energy and matter come from? It couldn't have come from nothing, but time, as far as we can tell, is linear, so it must have had a beggining.

There was no time before the big bang. Asking what was before the big bang is like asking what's South of the South Pole.

/I just blew your mind
 
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