h3lx: It's not always the case. The cartiridge may not fire, but the grenade will still arm. With a AAA round, like the 25mm AP, the removal of the propellant will disable the round, but not for the HE/ HEDP. Without knowing what type of round he was handling, it's impossible to know, either way, when given a 40mm round, if it isn't blue, it's dangerous. Regardless.

Are you ex-military? You seem to have a degree of knowledge about this stuff.

I still have some inert (blue) M6A1 and M6A3C bazooka rounds from a family friend. Also have a M11A3 dummy rifle grenade. He was a tank commander in WWII. After he died about 11 years ago, we were cleaning out his (huge) garage and found a crate full of M6A1's, cept these were live. I think there were 50 in the crate. They were in round cardboard tubes that separated about 1/3 of the way down. He didn't have a bazooka, and these things had been in there for decades, under and behind a TON of stuff, I'm sure he had completely forgotten about them. In any case, we had the Sheriff's office come get them. Back then, they didn't make the "OH NO, a terriborist!" reaction and send out the national guard complete with a mobile containment facility. A deputy and a couple of bomb squad guys came out, saw it was all in the original packages, and hauled it off. I don't know what happened after that.

Totally OT, I just thought you might appreciate that.

GoodOmens: First thing I thought of

ROFL! Like minds...

/blockbuster...
//Thank you farkers that are ordinance trained! Some of this info is a great read. Too bad the kids didn't know this...

He had a good idea. Don't tell the kids to get off your lawn. Turn them into fertalizer instead.

/lush green paradise

Dumbass tag trumped again by injury to children.

Just for the record...

Ordnance = Weapons & equipment.

Ordinance = Rule or law.

Teach them about unexploded ordnance around the same time you teach them about strangers bearing unexploded ordnance. I thought that was obvious?

Phil Moskowitz Mr Yuck needs to go on grenades and shells. I've been saying that for years.

I'm hard at work designing Mr. Kablooey right now.

xopher.tm
I'm hard at work designing Mr. Kablooey right now.

Now that is funny.

The Fett

More then likely he found it in or around a range near Edwards AFB, the incident having occured in Bakersfield. You are correct, he does have a heavy burden to bear for the rest of his life. However, he still (unwittingly) brought about the death of 2 children and wounded 3 others (possibly for life). I would not be surprised if the parents organized a lynch mob to go after this guy.

When they say 40mm shell, do they mean a grenade launcher cartridge, or a round to feed a 40mm autocannon like a boffors?

/Just curious
//Big difference between the two.

that sucks.

spelletrader:

I thought about becoming EOD. As an ammunition specialist, I have a high respect for your job.

Ok, I just wanted to blow some shiat up!

23 Ordnance Co, Miesau GE
24 Ordnance Co, Hunter Army Airfield GA
60 Ordnance Co, Ft. Carson CO

105 MP Co, Buffalo NY

Tainted1

I am in the process of contacting a buddy at Edwards AFB to see if he can find out more. TFA doesn't specify (or give me enough info to make an educated guess) and I doubt anyone from CNN would know the difference if they had one shoved up their @sses.

Tainted1: do they mean a grenade launcher cartridge

Probably, since I've issued a lot of those, and as for the other one, haven't heard about it.

/ammunition specialist, where's your DA 581?

spelletrader: ...at Edwards AFB

Ok, all bets are off if it's Air Force munitions. Don't know much about those, being Army and all that.

optimus_prime

IYAAYAS?

I was actually USAF while active duty (8 years) now a Army contractor down here at White Sands with the 734th EOD.

Blowing shiat up is the best part of the job! =)

"I thought it was harmless"

Yeah well you will be sure to check it next time, dumbass!!

optimus_prime

The Bakersfield area is close to many ranges that were used by all services, and all services use the same 40mm grenade ammo. The boffors/aaa stuff varies somewhat, but can be found anywhere on old military ranges.

Phil Moskowitz Mr Yuck needs to go on grenades and shells. I've been saying that for years.

---
It turns out that Mr. Yuck really is green!


(and a bit mean, too)
/got my ticket, hand basket is on layaway

spelletrader: IYAAYAS?

My knowledge of military lingo has been degrading ever since I got out. Though, I am sure it's something funny.

I could have went to Iraq as a contractor, and actually gave it some though. However, just before I redeployed, they hung those contractors from the bridge, and I decided that finishing my mechanical engineering degree was more important...and safer.

Even state-side, contractors are doing a lot of the jobs that the Army used to do. All the inspectors are civilians. Hell, half of stock control is civilian.

Personally, whether it says inert or not, I always left ammo alone unless we were on a range. Now the 105mm sabot and 25mm HE dummy rounds in my office, those are another matter...

/concrete-filled 105 round
//25mm round machined from solid metal
///both CLEARLY marked DUMMY
////last things anyone expects to find in a librarian's office!!!

optimus_prime

IYAAYAS = If you ain't ammo you ain't shiat!

I too passed on many Iraq/Kuwait jobs, spent plenty of time over there while I was in and have had 4 friends killed over there (both on the military and civilian side) since the clean up work started.

I've stuck the the safer ordnance jobs, like Maui, Denver, Cheyenne and now White Sands since I went civ.

wh0mprat

The kids were 7, 8 and 12. If they are still not toilet trained that's a whole other problem. But hey I think there were a couple of times when you could have snuck in a little conversation about the dangers and the need for proper handling of firearms and other weapons. I think they were all old enough, that you can tell them not to approach things that might look like or be a weapon. They should be able to figure out the difference between different shapes and objects by 7 right? and if not the 12 year old probably could have helped out.
The point I'm trying to make is this, it's not enough to simply make kids practice fire drills, and tell them what to do when they are approached by a stranger. You have to instill some common sense as well.
I'll give you a perfect example, about a year ago there was a story on fark about some kids in Africa who got blown up because they were kicking around a grenade like a soccer ball. Now these kids live in a war torn country and they know what a grenade is, and maybe even how to use it. Yet they were still stupid/silly/ignorant enough to play with the damn thing. Yes it's sad, but WTF were they thinking was going to happen? I would understand if they stepped on a land mine they didn't know was there, or if they were kicking an actual soccer ball and it blew up.

I'm not saying that this guy didn't do anything wrong. What I'm saying is that why did the parents leave their kids unsupervised? I don't know about other states but in Minnesota if you were to leave your kids at home alone Child protection would take your kids away. In my opinion part of the blame if not most of it lies with the parents for neglecting their children. Unless this guy was their baby sitter I don't see any reason not to hold them partly responsible. If your children cant figure out not to be near dangerous things then you should be watching them constantly.

/maybe even get them a helmet
//for when they fall down walking.

This is a 40MM shell. This is the residue left over from the first firefight I was in while stationed in Iraq. Don't ask me why, in a moment of danger, I thought to pick up my residue (probably because you do so in training, and my anal retentiveness from being an ammunition specialist).

Anyway, it's fired from the M203 grenade launcher. The MK19 fires essentially the same round, though the shell will have a link on it.

m0ondoggy We had an old guy who did a few tours in Korea that made firecrackers for us kids, his firecrackers also remove stumps... it was a lot of fun. These days, people would freak the fark out if they saw some of the shiat we did.

/Highest respect for EOD. Use to love watching them work.

hi, I'm a bakersfield firefighter. I don'y know about where you live, but yes we have stupid people here, and I bet you do too.
Its pretty sad that some of you think this is funny, I just wish you were with us as we tried to salvage wht was left of those kids.
sometime I really hate my job

Tainted1: When they say 40mm shell, do they mean a grenade launcher cartridge, or a round to feed a 40mm autocannon like a boffors?

Funny that nobody thought to mention that earlier in the thread ;-)

Vin Diesel: My uncle kept a Davy Crockett in his garage. Man, did he ever yell when us kids horseplayed too close to it.

LOL. I should point out that the SAM in question had been fired !

The Fett: the Blue one showing is a TPT round, it still fires (but leaves an orange splat instead of an explosion)

Orange splat is for the M203. The MK 19 TPT is a bursting type round(pop-sparkle). Not as nasty as HE or HEDP, but still damned dangerous, and might just kill you if you were holding it.

/Army small-arms instructor
//Taught the MK 19 this year

I think you ought to go a little easier on the parents.

I've got grandchildren that age, and although I've had talks with them about guns and ammunition, I've never thought to warn them that something that looks like a can of hairspray might be ordnance.

Although I've had guns all my life, I was never in the military, and without markings I wouldn't have recognized those myself.

/sending this thread to their parents so the oversight can be rectified.

they look like pop cans

drew_that

But hey I think there were a couple of times when you could have snuck in a little conversation about the dangers and the need for proper handling of firearms and other weapons. I think they were all old enough, that you can tell them not to approach things that might look like or be a weapon.

I'm ex-USAF armament specialist. I'm quite sure my neighbors never thought to teach their kid not to mess with what looks like a bomb if they were over at our house. Especially as these don't really look like a 'weapon'. A gun, yes...that a weapon. Bow and arrow, knife...yes, those are weapons. Maybe even a pineapple grenade.
But these don't really look like something you'd come across, and it would never cross the mind of 99% of parents in this country the possibility of coming across a *bomb* at your neighbors house. Much less a live one.

I'm not saying that this guy didn't do anything wrong. What I'm saying is that why did the parents leave their kids unsupervised? I don't know about other states but in Minnesota if you were to leave your kids at home alone Child protection would take your kids away. In my opinion part of the blame if not most of it lies with the parents for neglecting their children.

How the FARK do you get 'left home alone' and 'neglected' out of that article?
Ever hear of "go outside and play"?
Being a parent does NOT mean the kid is tied to your hip 24/7, especially a age 10 or 12.

The guy obviously was careless. There was no intent, and depending on what other circumstantial evidence surrounds the case, will determine whether the disctrict attorney's office will pursue manslaughter or negligent homicide charges. He'll definately be charged with some sort of illegal possession offense. My guess is that he won't see any jail time but a civil suit will wipe this guy out.

As for the "awareness" issues that some of you are talking about... are you kidding? There wouldn't be enough time in a year to teach our children of all the potential dangers there are out there. Who teaches their children about how to handle live ammunition if it isn't normally around? I don't teach my children how to handle plutonium, or show them the correct way to climb barbed wire fences. And what kid would remember how the hell to tell the difference between all the different live and inert ordnance anyways?

That girl that got mauled by that tiger during her school pictures a few years back... do you think her parents taught her not to play with tigers? She was under the assumption that the environment was safe, exactly the situation that these kids were in. I'm sure if these kids happened to have found this out in the park they would have shown much more caution.

Even if those lessons in place, we all know how kids are. They will play with things that are interesting to them, dangerous or not. We shouldn't be on a blamegame witch hunt here, it sounds like it was all a poor set of circumstances that came to a tragic end result. Kids being kids and an assuming and uninformed man trying to be a cool neighbor. I'm not trying to justify their deaths or prove this guys innocence, but people get caught up in the sensationalism of a story like this that they fail to think things through before making comments.

GoodOmens:


diiiiabolical saboooootaaaage ?

If any of you are interested in pics of ordnance check out www.inertord.com or www.big-ordnance.com

If you live near a military installation the base will usually have a video (dvd, vhs, online download) that you can watch for UXO awareness. If you can't find one, you can always watch the one from White Sands here: http://www.wsmr.army.mil/bd/visitors/uxo.html

/My html fu is weak, forgive me.

ArmyCop

You're absolutley right, I was speaking of the 203 round, not the Mk19 Target round. It was a scattered thought after I looked at the picture. My point (not made well) was that Blue is not safe either. Not as dangerous, but in no way safe.

/Used to teach MK19 too.

How the FARK do you get 'left home alone' and 'neglected' out of that article?
Well I didn't see it say in the article that they were really being watched by anyone. As a parent if you were around would you let them play with the shell? I suppose it's easy for me to assume things since the article doesn't tell the whole story of what happened.


Ever hear of "go outside and play"?
Being a parent does NOT mean the kid is tied to your hip 24/7, especially a age 10 or 12.
Yes I know all about going outside and playing. But this isn't just kids playing in your back yard where you can watch them through the window. This is an appartment building that depending on it's size could possibly have 100 or more people living in it. Who knows what kind of people live in it, none of this is told in the story. There are places where if it were my child I certainly would make sure that either I or some other responcible parent whom I can trust is keeping an eye on them.

I don't know maybe I've just watched too many movies with guns as a child, thanks Chuck Norris and took a couple of trips to the WW2 museum in Kiev that this definatly does not look like a pop can to me but as ammunition.


Ether way I sympathise with the parents on the loss of their children. It's a horrible thing to have to live through, and I don't wish it on anyone.

I simply don't agree with the lynch mob of people who want to kill this guy because of what happened. I find it very plausable that he really didn't know that it still contained explosives, and if he did he probably would not have given it to them, or even kept it himself. We simply don't have enough information from this article, just a bunch of speculation.

He disarmed the propelling mechanism by taking the pin and propelling charge out, leaving the actual payload intact.

Guess he'll have some time to catch up on safe use of explosives in prison.

I hate kids but I still felt bad when I saw this.

Euler007

He did no such thing. He found the round without the cartridge or primer, and that is because it had been fired.

drew_that

Even without knowledge or intent, he can still be charged with reckless or negligent manslaughter/homicide. I imagine that will be up to the local District Attorney.

I submitted this with a better headline last night and it got rejected in like 15 seconds :-(

I bet those two don't have the guts to do that again.

/wrong

After thinking about it...

If his possession of the item was unlawful (even if he was not aware of the fact) could it still be construed as negligent or reckless? Where are the Farklawyers when you need them...

Baskaa --
What? I tried that, but the irritating lil' hellspawn never stole what they were supposed to steal. I wonder if one of the patches disabled their own-goaling, or whether I was just unlucky. *shrug*

this definatly does not look like a pop can to me but as ammunition.

I have a refillable can of compressed air that looks, except for the paint job, exactly like that.

With 120mm mortar round they only arm when they reach a height of a few thousand feet. Altho, I doubt a kid could even pick up a 120mm round...

billyleo: With 120mm mortar round they only arm when they reach a height of a few thousand feet. Altho, I doubt a kid could even pick up a 120mm round...

The majority of mortar fuzes are setback armed. I have never encountered a mortar fuze that is armed by altitude. Not saying they don't exist, but if they do, they are not common at all.

I see this as a positive, learning experience.

I wonder if he could have got on a plane with his inert round?

Unknowingly posessing a lethal device may be negligent but not criminal. I see nothing coming from this. The civil trial could bury him in expense, but what is to be gained there. He's not in dispute... no amount of imbursement is going to change anything and I know if I indirectly killed two children and wounded a few others, the amound of anger, pain, and depression would be enough... the ghosts of those kids would me forever. I would hope that he couldn't be sorry enough... destroying his life isn't going to change anything.