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(C|Net)   Online gamers victims of embezzlement as "banker" absconds with 790 billion of game's currency   (news.com.com) divider line 188
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28461 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Aug 2006 at 6:31 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-08-28 08:03:31 PM
SomeAmerican
I'd argue that at least the developers try in other MMOs, but I tend to agree fully with the rest of your opinions so there's really no point in arguing. I think laws haven't quite caught up with reality when it comes to MMO fraud but hopefully someone will point that out at some point in the future.

She comes in colors everywhere
That almost lends more weight to SomeAmerican's point. When the player sells game currency they're essentially selling something that belongs to whatever company runs the game. It's been compared to a scenario where a company rents you a piece of equipment or tool and then you turn around and sell it to someone else which is, of course, illegal. You might argue that the in-game money isn't technically currency, but it is a good or commodity that belongs to the company that "issued" it. Therefore a player selling it on the market is illegal and should be enforced (but once again, laws need to mature a bit more in this department). Unfortunetly, enforcement is up to the actual game company at this point and not considered a crime that law enforcement has to deal with. I'm not saying it should be anywhere on par with embezzling actual money but the game company should at least be able to ask local law enforcement to stop the sale of it. It's a tricky can of worms because you end up getting into international issues very quickly but that tends to happen when you start talking about anything on the web.
 
2006-08-28 08:03:57 PM
There was that article several months back where an assassin conned his way into an EVE corporation to the highest ranks and then (with the help of accomplices of course) in one fell swoop stole all its assets and assassinated the CEO.
 
2006-08-28 08:04:47 PM
Throw more dots.
 
2006-08-28 08:05:20 PM
2006-08-28 07:59:19 PM She comes in colors everywhere

Then you are not paying attention. A lot. It's the EULA that makes software piracy, for example, illegal. They are binding legal agreements.

My understanding is that copyright laws and the DMCA make software piracy illegal, not the EULA. Software piracy predates the EULA.
 
2006-08-28 08:06:16 PM
i'm still confused: how did the people investing their fake-dollars expect those dollars to gain interest? What was going to make their value increase? Is there a fake-dollars stock market?

/never played a MMORPG
//don't kill me if there is an obvious answer
 
2006-08-28 08:06:40 PM
BWWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

GET OUT OF YOUR PARENT'S BASEMENT AND DO SOMETHING REAL! My GOD this is funny. To ALL of you socially retraded Funyuns junkies, GET A LIFE.

/the hacker lingo crap of 'pwned' is the STUPIDEST shiat I've ever seen in my life. Makes me realize the lot of you don't have a single creative, original thought in your dreadfully underutilized brains.
 
2006-08-28 08:08:20 PM
here's more:

Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.
 
2006-08-28 08:10:19 PM
youngfogey

ok, so what manner of cry for help was that?

Are you a gaming addict of some kind or just lonely, whats up champ?
 
2006-08-28 08:10:57 PM
EULAs don't carry force of law. They carry force of EULA.

Laws are written by governments. EULAs are written by companies.

Software piracy is illegal because governments have passed laws on copyright theft, intellectual property theft, etc.

Why do people think that just because something is written and signed "it's a law."

It's not. It's a contract. It may be enforceable in a court of law...or it may not.

These things have "legal" value because there is no law written to prevent their sale. There are laws preventing the sale of drugs, thus drugs are illegal.

/argh
 
2006-08-28 08:12:09 PM
SomeAmerican: My understanding is that copyright laws and the DMCA make software piracy illegal, not the EULA. Software piracy predates the EULA.


Okay, Whatev.

Dood.

Microsoft established the EULA in the freakin' 70's to license its software. Nobody "sells" software, in a legal sense, they license it under very specific legal terms spelled out in the EULA. It is a legal agreement.

Everytime that you don't read it and just click "I agree" you have just made a legal agreement, enforceable in court.

All your wishing otherwise doesn't change that.
 
2006-08-28 08:13:38 PM
i'm still confused: how did the people investing their fake-dollars expect those dollars to gain interest? What was going to make their value increase? Is there a fake-dollars stock market?

EVE has a very very active player-run economy. So yes, they could legitimately expect that money to be loaned to other players to finance ventures and be repaid with interest.

Scams like this are a large part of the charm of EVE. They're only really frowned upon if you use an alt character to pull it off to escape the consequences.
 
2006-08-28 08:14:25 PM
december
i'm still confused: how did the people investing their fake-dollars expect those dollars to gain interest? What was going to make their value increase? Is there a fake-dollars stock market?

From what I gather, it seems that (1) new players are started with a certain amount of ISK and (2) new ISK are introduced to the economy by NPC merchants buying stuff from you (captured ships, ore, etc.) I imagine if the developers were so inclined, they could simulate interest rate changes by raising and lowering the amounts paid for basic goods.
 
2006-08-28 08:14:47 PM
2006-08-28 08:03:10 PM stpickrell [TotalFark]

The account gets terminated thus reducing the incentive to go forth and buy your ISK ... why would I want to spend $100 on some ISK if they will just shutdown my account ... I imagine the developers can easily monitor whose account grows at rates beyond reckoning.

If it was possible to prove, then it would be possible to enforce in-game. But it turns out to be remarkably hard to prove. Players send each other money all the time... there is even a name for decking out new characters, "twinking".

The only way to know for sure is to track stolen in-game money through transfers, which necessitates tracking many trillions of items, or to link financial transactions in real life to in game transactions.

The latter is tough because you can't get a court order for activities that are not recognized by a local government as a crime. Without a court order, the companies that buy and sell currency don't have to tell you who bought and who sold.

The rarity of enforcement is demonstrated by the strength of the market.
 
2006-08-28 08:15:56 PM
Phil:

'Champ?' Is that your contribution to originality? You lose. I continue to laugh at those who think these multi-player games constitute a life.

/still laughing
//still laughing
 
2006-08-28 08:15:56 PM
980 billion ISK is currently worth over 100 thousand real dollars

cha ching

(according to swagvault multiplying their price for 2 billion times 490)
 
2006-08-28 08:18:56 PM
youngfogey

Dude, please shut up for your own good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Whatever is going on in your life, you don't need to alienate people over it.
 
2006-08-28 08:19:03 PM
/the hacker lingo crap of 'pwned' is the STUPIDEST shiat I've ever seen in my life. Makes me realize the lot of you don't have a single creative, original thought in your dreadfully underutilized brains.

Name: Youngfogey
Location: Earth

Thanks for showing us the way.
 
2006-08-28 08:19:32 PM
PortWineBoy: EULAs don't carry force of law. They carry force of EULA.
Laws are written by governments. EULAs are written by companies.
Why do people think that just because something is written and signed "it's a law."


Because the government has passed laws defining what sorts of agreements and licenses, written by companies, are enforceable by law.

Jeeesh.

Am I arguing law with twelve year olds? Should I just give up? Why is this so freakin' hard?

The EVE EULA, written by CCP, protects them and the users of the game from legal action because it defines all in-game "property" as having no value, and also being CCP's exclusive property.

CCP DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE ISK; YOU CAN'T SELL IT OR TRANSFER IT.
 
2006-08-28 08:21:51 PM
there is even a name for decking out new characters, "twinking".

Yeah, google that and I think you'll find out there has long been a previous meaning to that word, although one that is probably just as applicable.
 
2006-08-28 08:22:31 PM
The only way to successfully persuade somebody to invest in us was to make ourselves look as legitimate as humanly possible. To this end, we started our corporation, and I took an unnecessary risk by naming it "ZZZZ Best" (google the name). He didn't catch the joke, and luckily, neither did any of the future investors.

Har! Seriously though, caveat emptor, dudes.
 
2006-08-28 08:22:44 PM
grizzlyjohnson

That's actually why that term was used.
 
2006-08-28 08:23:19 PM
My god- it's like a DIEBOLD VOTING MACHINE!
 
2006-08-28 08:23:39 PM
img201.imageshack.us
 
2006-08-28 08:23:57 PM
wow youngfogey. I mean, we'll get off your lawn man. All you had to do was ask.
 
2006-08-28 08:25:14 PM
/brain asplodes
 
2006-08-28 08:27:17 PM
farfigneugan

wow youngfogey. I mean, we'll get off your lawn man. All you had to do was ask.

Seventeenism !=

img201.imageshack.us
 
2006-08-28 08:30:52 PM
a) If the game world allows it, do it
b) if stealing fake things in a fake world gets your rocks off, go buy a hooker and mutilate some cats (you know you want to)
 
2006-08-28 08:30:55 PM
If the rules of Eve allow for this in game, than this guy is in no more danger of the law than I am for killing someone in Half Life 2.
 
2006-08-28 08:36:36 PM
I'm sorry, but who the fark wants to be a banker in a video game?????

You can do boring shiat like that in real life.

/I played SW Galaxies for 1 month
//I had to hunt animals to take their hide to sell it to cooks
///I work enough in real life, I wanna blow up shiat in games
 
2006-08-28 08:37:35 PM
Anyone who thinks MMO money is worthless needs to join the modern world and get out of the past.

Second Life allows you to transfer real money and their 'fake' money as easily as going to Canada and buying their (also fake) money.

This gives them an annual GDP of just over $64 Million, real world money.

People can and do make a real living playing Second Life; it's a freaking work of art.

Source:
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/technology/7ba1af8f3812d010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrc rd.html
 
2006-08-28 08:41:45 PM
I wonder who's seen Avalon.
 
2006-08-28 08:43:05 PM
Goonswarm
 
2006-08-28 08:44:11 PM
youngfogey: BWWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

GET OUT OF YOUR PARENT'S BASEMENT AND DO SOMETHING REAL! My GOD this is funny. To ALL of you socially retraded Funyuns junkies, GET A LIFE.


HAHAHAA, dude, you are AWESOME! And so smrt!

/sigh..
 
2006-08-28 08:45:27 PM
2006-08-28 08:19:32 PM She comes in colors everywhere

Because the government has passed laws defining what sorts of agreements and licenses, written by companies, are enforceable by law. Jeeesh. Am I arguing law with twelve year olds? Should I just give up? Why is this so freakin' hard?

You are oversimplifying.

The only attempt to codify EULAs into law has been the DMCA. That was only passed a few years ago, there was a huge to do over it, and the ramnifications are not understood. Heavy resistence to the law remains. Whether it is enforceable or not is simply not known. What is definite is that some provisions have been struck down in court.

The problems with EULAs is that you often don't know what they are until you buy the software. Courts have demonstrated over and over that a one sided contract is not enforceable. Also, contracts that contain blanket statements that protect a party from liability are also not enforceable, if negligence can be demonstrated.

Finally, EULAs certainly have nothing to do with software piracy. That is covered under copyright law. If you copy someone else's software disk, install it, and click no on the EULA, you have still violated copyright law. The acceptance or not of the EULA is unimportant.

I could be wrong, and probably am, as law is amzingly complicated. But you are not right, any more than we are 12. And I guess that's all I have to say on this topic.
 
2006-08-28 08:46:12 PM
content.ytmnd.com
 
2006-08-28 08:48:24 PM
Eve is single sharded is free-form (very libertarian Scandavian). You can do whatever you want but be ready to bear the consequences.

This guy stole the equivalent of $100,000 USD, if he sold the money via ebay.
 
2006-08-28 08:52:11 PM
dick_justice

It's not a crime to take something that doesn't exist. It's like getting pissed at me for farking your imaginanry girlfriend.

/Oh, you know i did.
//She even let me go AtM
///Woot!


My imaginary girlfriend has the AIDS. And herpes. And warts. And a bit 'o HepC. Now you do too, imaginarily!

/good luck getting any more imaginary ass.
//woot
 
2006-08-28 08:54:25 PM
Phil:

Dude, you're gonna cite Wikipedia to me? Are you actually going to attempt to psychoanalyze me over the internet with faulty, unverifiable research?

/laughing EVEN HARDER
 
2006-08-28 09:03:35 PM
Wow, this guy is a horrible public speaker... That video is terribly boring.
 
2006-08-28 09:11:44 PM
youngfogey

It's verifiable that you're here posting nonesense and acting like a freakshow. If you don't understand the wiki then pull out your dsm IV if you own one and have studied it.

Bottom line, you might be laughing, but you shouldn't be.
 
2006-08-28 09:15:37 PM
www3.telus.net

Did anyone else read that as "Feds to warn teen girls of Net penis"?

/perhaps it was just me.
 
2006-08-28 09:19:42 PM
She comes in colors everywhere: It's the EULA that makes software piracy, for example, illegal.

Sure. It's not the copyright, it's the EULA. Got it.

/sarcasm.
 
2006-08-28 09:21:49 PM
img.photobucket.com

/long long LONG overdue in this thread
 
2006-08-28 09:26:00 PM
I know that people really get into the games they play, building up their characters, etc. And yes, you can sell your Eve money online (even though the TOS forbid this). But what's next? Calling in a claim to Geico when someone collides with your ship? Having Judge Judy sort out the damages when you get attacked by someone else?

And, as I understand it, the difference between this and Second Life is that Second Life was intended to have flow of fake money > real money. On Eve, the TOS look to totally forbid this.

All in all, I'll stick with Battlefront 2. Yoda doesn't sue for damages when I shoot a rocket between his beady little eyes...
 
2006-08-28 09:29:13 PM
Phil Moskowitz

Excellent movie.
 
2006-08-28 09:38:12 PM
moosealope:

Yeah me too.


/Hey, it's a video game. I was pissed in UO when I'd mine for an hour, buy a set of armor to go adventuring, then be e-bolted in 5 minutes and have my stuff taken. But I had a solution to the problem. I quit the game.
 
2006-08-28 09:44:01 PM
moosealope: Did anyone else read that as "Feds to warn teen girls of Net penis"?

/perhaps it was just me.



Affirmative. Saw it too.
 
2006-08-28 09:46:49 PM
IXI Jim IXI


I know that people really get into the games they play, building up their characters, etc. And yes, you can sell your Eve money online (even though the TOS forbid this). But what's next? Calling in a claim to Geico when someone collides with your ship? Having Judge Judy sort out the damages when you get attacked by someone else?


No need to call geico, there is already ship insurance in-game. You BUY the insurance, cause you WILL lose your ship, sometimes often.

/played WoW for over a year
//now on Eve, the deep end of the pool
 
2006-08-28 09:50:43 PM
God Emperor of Poon
No need to call geico, there is already ship insurance in-game. You BUY the insurance, cause you WILL lose your ship, sometimes often.


Yeah, but does it cover fender benders?
 
2006-08-28 09:52:05 PM
aerojockey:
I still think the funniest was on EQ 2 (I think). There was a disease that instantly killed players but was supposed to be comfined to a small area. Some people managed to infect their pets with it, but it didn't instantly kill the pets. Once the players died their pets would wander around infecting everyone and causing massive plagues.

It was WoW.
BBC article. I think it made Fark's main page back in the day...
 
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