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(englishrussia.com)   Trostky Church of St.Petersburg is on fire (photos)   (englishrussia.com) divider line 331
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23523 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Aug 2006 at 11:24 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-08-25 01:47:42 PM
Isn't it made of big ol' stone pieces? Maybe they can rebuild the dome(s). Someone did say that workers were able to save the important (relative) artifacts, etc from the fire.
 
2006-08-25 01:47:51 PM
you have any idea that FARK actually was faster showing this than e.g. BBC?
 
2006-08-25 01:49:05 PM
There's something tragically beautiful about a burning church.

Anyone find video?
 
2006-08-25 01:49:43 PM
2006-08-25 01:40:59 PM lazymojo

The whole idea that god exists somewhere and god created the things that science can't explain is absolutely ridiculous. I'm not alone in believing this. Science and religion can peacefully coexist only so long as religion admits it is based completely on human emotion, i.e. "a need to believe something." Just because "science" or the Big Bang hasn't yet proven everything doesn't mean that god must have made it.

Nor does it mean that a god/goddess/divinity couldn't have created physical laws of the universe (or multiverse, if you believe that).

Also - not a religious type here. More of an agnostic with pagan leanings. Who made up his own Goddess. Just because I liked the idea of a pantheon and wanted to have one of my own.
 
2006-08-25 01:54:09 PM
atate_esq said:

Does this mean it's ok for me to want all science buildings and colleges to burn down? The Demoncratic National Convention building? Or the UN?

You are a sick and angry person. Get over yourself. If you don't like church, don't go. Keep your hate to yourself.

=========================================
So, atate, you indeed confirm that religion stands in opposition to science?
 
2006-08-25 01:56:05 PM
Yes, there is no God, but just because you've just descovered this whilst you're rebelling against your parents and becoming a philosophy major doesn't mean that it's a good thing that history should be destroyed.

I think the generalizations people make about atheists are amusing. Attack the message, not the messenger. Unless you're truly afraid of the message. "ON NOES! There's no heaven? Now how do I justify my existence. Please someone tell me!!!!111 I'll do anything!!!!1111" (priest nearby snickers and jingles the collection plate in your face.)

Also - not a religious type here. More of an agnostic with pagan leanings. Who made up his own Goddess. Just because I liked the idea of a pantheon and wanted to have one of my own.

I can respect that. What's your hook? Are you the way to eternal salvation? Or have you promised 30 virgins in heaven? Or do you promise something better than 30 virgins that is so good, words cannot even accurately describe it and we just have to take your word for it?

Are you going to build a beautiful church, and then 176 years later when it burns down, insist that everyone feel sorry for you (and it)?
 
2006-08-25 02:01:34 PM
Save the churches, but convert them all to taco stands.

Everyone wins!
 
2006-08-25 02:02:25 PM
NYMoogle:
"You should try getting your head out of your A.S.S sometimes. I might not be a globetrotter like you, but I've been to all the continents except Australia."



I didn't realize your hate rallies had a world tour.
 
2006-08-25 02:02:31 PM
Does this mean that St. Petersburgs cultural output will be dropped by 50%? And how much longer will it take to generate a Great Prophet?

/Still early, but needs sleep.
//sad to see it go, never saw it in person.
 
2006-08-25 02:02:58 PM
2006-08-25 01:56:05 PM lazymojo

I can respect that. What's your hook? Are you the way to eternal salvation? Or have you promised 30 virgins in heaven? Or do you promise something better than 30 virgins that is so good, words cannot even accurately describe it and we just have to take your word for it?

Are you going to build a beautiful church, and then 176 years later when it burns down, insist that everyone feel sorry for you (and it)?


Actually, I'm a bit too low-key for all of that. I think we create our own deities via our faith in them. Prior to that, they don't exist.

And to be honest, I'm not so sure that 30 virgins would be a good thing if all you're in it for is the sex (besides, what do the women get in these religions? Never had that answered, though I'm not sure I've ever asked publicly.). For that, I'd think that 30 disease free porn stars in the bodies of virgins would be much more fun. However, if you want to have a harem of virgins that you get to train and keep forever, that might not be bad. That and what if you get fat, ugly virgins?

And nope - not going to build a church. My goddess isn't big into structures like that. It's in your heart and mind, nature, all that jazz.
 
2006-08-25 02:03:08 PM
2006-08-25 01:40:59 PM lazymojo said:

The whole idea that god exists somewhere and god created the things that science can't explain is absolutely ridiculous. I'm not alone in believing this. Science and religion can peacefully coexist only so long as religion admits it is based completely on human emotion, i.e. "a need to believe something." Just because "science" or the Big Bang hasn't yet proven everything doesn't mean that god must have made it.
=================================================

Hear, hear!
 
2006-08-25 02:03:08 PM
Trappedspirit:Ah, this is probably where our beliefs take the largest divergence. I am one of those kooks that thinks humans have a metaphysical component to them and are not a composite of atoms. Which means I also believe in freewill and personal responsibility. But not so big on matter worship

First of all, you're not a kook.....are you? *backs away slowly*
I believe that humans have a "metaphysical component" too. Here's my thing, though:
Humans seem to need a way to express that metaphysical component. It's not a material thing, but the only tools we have are material things. Thus we make works of art. Van Gogh's "Wheat Field with Crows", for example, is only a few dollars worth of paint and canvas, but he used those material things so that his metaphysical component could talk to my metaphysical component.
So I don't "worship" matter, but I'm damn glad it's here so that I can "meet" Van Gogh. And I would be very sad if his painting got destroyed.
 
2006-08-25 02:04:52 PM
lazymojo
Attack the message, not the messenger.

May I point out that two people attacked your message:

ronaprhys
Nor does it mean that a god/goddess/divinity couldn't have created physical laws of the universe (or multiverse, if you believe that).

Norwest
Your argument is based on the false pretense that a perfect scientfic explanation of the universe and God cannot co-exist. Religion encompasses much more than creation.

But you only responded to posts/sections of posts that you agreed with or contained ad-hominem attacks.
 
2006-08-25 02:12:29 PM
ronaprhys: Actually, I'm a bit too low-key for all of that. I think we create our own deities via our faith in them. Prior to that, they don't exist.


/Neil Gaiman not available for comment.
 
2006-08-25 02:14:42 PM
2006-08-25 02:12:29 PM Shadow Blasko

/Neil Gaiman not available for comment.

Good to know he's the first one to have that thought...
 
2006-08-25 02:15:30 PM
Someone got one helluva Tetris...
 
2006-08-25 02:16:57 PM
This is terrible, but I loved AVG's pic. :)
 
2006-08-25 02:17:49 PM
ronaprhys: Good to know he's the first one to have that thought...


Not implying that he did. In fact, I was delighted to read that he had the thought, as it has been a part of my belief system for a couple decades.

/Feel free to check out my page
 
2006-08-25 02:18:07 PM
As an engineer, I've spent a great deal of time studing the sciences. I've done well in my profession, and consider my knowledge to be current and continually tested. Yet I doubt I will ever find myself in such a position as to declare myself secure in my religious beliefs. If at anypoint I find myself secure in those beliefs, then I might as well stop, since there will be nothing left to understand.


To NYMoogle All things are transitory. As such, I find even greater reason to mourn their passing.
 
2006-08-25 02:18:20 PM
NO I DIDN'T

You can't prove a negative. If you want to throw out the line "Prove god doesn't exist" then we can't debate on it because of the simple matter that you cannot prove something doesn't exist, unless you can be everywhere at once and not see it anywhere. Eh? You follow? Just because we don't yet know an answer to the universe, doesn't mean that it must be that god created it.

We used to not know what caused the Plague. People thought it was punishment from god for their sins and they went around flagellating themselves for it. OOps! It's actually caused by microscopic bacteria that are transmitted through flea bites, not god.

Religion is such a cop out to me. People take things that are hard to explain or difficult to understand, and take the "easy way out." For example, the argument that the human eye is so complicated and difficult to understand that therefore god must have made it, and it couldn't have possibly resulted from evolution. That's absurd in my opinion, and contrary to all principles of logic and reason.

And as far as religion encompassing more than creation: it certainly does. It encompasses money, power, greed, etc. It is a human scheme designed by some (more unscrupulous) members of society to prey on other (more naive) members of society. They take your desire for an answer to existence and give it to you in spades. All they ask for in return is lots of money and moral authority over you, which they conveniently exchange for political authority whenever they can.
 
2006-08-25 02:21:47 PM
2006-08-25 11:44:53 AM Dorf11
Obviously Mick Jagger thought it was time for a change.


Well played, sir
 
2006-08-25 02:22:36 PM
Nambud

Nice Westboro impression... everyones a little too touchy to get the joke.
 
2006-08-25 02:24:33 PM
Reuters, 1 hour ago.

Got their own pictures, too. So unless teh PS is in overdrive...
 
2006-08-25 02:28:02 PM
No religion of peace comments!?!?!? You guys ARE slipping!!!
 
2006-08-25 02:31:11 PM
Werdot

Gracias. :) That is all I ever wanted to post in this thread in the first place. :)
 
2006-08-25 02:31:27 PM
I read several months ago that they put a scaffold around it to protect it from terrorist attacks. Seems it didn't work.
 
2006-08-25 02:33:48 PM
I found the place on google earth I think ... coordinates are:
59 54 59.30 N, 30 18 20.98 E
 
2006-08-25 02:40:53 PM
Hey Comrad, you get the crackers and chocolate, I'll bring the marshmellows.
 
2006-08-25 02:40:58 PM
lazymojo

I didn't ask you to dis-prove God. I stated that your argument was based on false pretenses. It still is.

Your explanation for religion is that it exists becasue people need to know the origins of the universe. While many people use religion to explain the universe, that is not the reason people have faith. Religion is so much more than an answer to the question "Why are we here?" Reducing it to that and comparing it to the scientific view makes religion look ridiculous, yes.

Religious people have faith for an enormous variety of reasons. I know hundreds of Christians and each of them has a unique faith for unique reasons. None of them believe in God becasue scientist can't fully explain the Big Bang. Most would agree with you the creationisim is a bit ridiculous.

Some churches are greedy, I can't deny that. It sickens me sometimes. But many churches are very poor. My church barely scrapes by. We had a serious argument last year about putting a cell phone tower on the roof for some extra cash. In the end we did it after agreeing that half the money would go to outreach (homeless help,. Does that sound rich and greedy to you?

A small amount of church money goes to the Synod, to pay for a few administrators, our bishop, pastor finding services, sending Children's Aid Society kids to the overnight camp etc. Noone in that church is rich, the Bishop gets under 100K/yr CND. In the same confrence I mentioned, we voted down a measure to increace synod funding, chosing instead to use more volunteers. Yep, we're living high off the hog.

Our church does not dictate morality to the congregations. That's why the meeting I mentioned was completely open, including to those not in the Church. Church policy is discussed, and all members are free to disagree or reject parts of the Church's teachings. And we do.

Do you have any other silly generalisations?
 
2006-08-25 02:41:46 PM
HightechLowlife: I didn't realize your hate rallies had a world tour.

Hate rallies? Thanks for the legitimate laugh. You haven't read anything I've posted, have you?
 
2006-08-25 02:46:38 PM
namebud


MY BELIEF IS THIS: People who believe in God in the biblical sense are just plain ignorant and, if they are not ignorant, they have no excuse to remove themselves from the group I would label as stupid.

There. That is it. That is all I have to say. So, fark you if you agree with me, and fark you if you don't. It is absolutely absurd to sit an argue with such simple-minded people.



Yep, definitely parent issues. Displaced/misplaced anger and bitterness.
 
2006-08-25 02:49:42 PM
NamBud

Mr. Chruka,
First of all, your analogy is shiat.


I'm afraid that's hardly a refutation. Allow me to elaborate as you failed to point out your reasoning behind this statement I'll cover as many bases as I can off hand. You stated that the sadness of a beautiful example of architecture burning to the ground is mitigated in your eyes due to the fact that it is a church. The only excuse for this is hatred. Willingness to destroy something you appreciate i.e.(personal freedom/beauty/the product of human dedication) in order to thwart something you despise, but doesn't directly affect you (personal religion/abortion) is shameful. I see this as a solid analogy. Undoubtedly you will try to blind me to the forest through the application of tree. The burning wasn't intentional. That is to say, it is not apparent that the church burned due to an individuals hatred for it. Your hatred for the religion who used the church brought you to justify its destruction. Once you have applied your hatred to the incident, it becomes an argument which bases its conclusions on malice. Thus the justification for the burning of the church is, Christians merit burning of their holy places. Sad and hateful and no different from burning the church out of hatred yourself.


But, to placate you, let me finish.
I am a HUGE pro-choice supporter. And, in my eyes, there is absolutely nothing wrong, from a humanitarian standpoint, with bombing a vacant,
(fixed that for you) abortion clinic. It is much better than strolling in with a shotgun wasting all of the workers and preserving the building.

That is a weak argument. You argue that bombing a vacant abortion clinic is better than going in with a shotgun. That is a true statement. That also has nothing to do with a terrorist act being morally valid. Destroying a vacant building as a message of hate, a threatening message at that, is an evil act. This is why. We will take the following premise to be true.

1. Things that make us genuinely happy without damaging us are desirable.

2. With uncertainty regarding an afterlife, resurrection, reincarnation and apotheosis, it is wise to plan your life according to this world.

3. What makes one individual happy will not by necessity make another happy.

4. Humans have attained their current long lives and comfort through trade and the mutual protection and learning offered by society.

5. In order for humans to live lives within society, they must factor each other into the way that they live inasmuch as these habits impact other members of society.

From this, other patterns and limitations emerge.


In order for each person to pursue their own happiness, each must respect that actions which do not threaten to cause injury to a person physically or damage their capacity to pursue their happiness through damage to their physical works, or encourage other entities or circumstances which cause injury to precipitate said injury within reason. Having a respect and desire for personal freedom and a simultaneous appreciation for the benefits of society, means respecting other peoples pursuit of happiness to the extent that they don't rob you of your personal freedoms. Destroying a building that has no impact on you, but is a beacon of hope to others is immoral. Encouraging and justifying said destruction is equally immoral.

/Insurance will cover it.

I'm sure that the Louvre is fully insured. If it wouldn't sadden you that the Louvre burned because it is full of religious works, you lack any appreciation for human achievement whatsoever, or your outrage at the church is of an unstable and dangerous nature.

/Time to get bibulous
 
2006-08-25 02:50:43 PM
2006-08-25 02:41:46 PM NYMoogle

Hate rallies? Thanks for the legitimate laugh. You haven't read anything I've posted, have you?

Yeah - we disagree, but you aren't in the hate category. Especially compared to NamBud, who seems to have lost his meds...
 
2006-08-25 02:51:53 PM
lazymojo


You can't prove a negative. If you want to throw out the line "Prove god doesn't exist" then we can't debate on it because of the simple matter that you cannot prove something doesn't exist, unless you can be everywhere at once and not see it anywhere. Eh? You follow? Just because we don't yet know an answer to the universe, doesn't mean that it must be that god created it.


Much of Astronomy has various ideas about what is and what is not without getting into declarations. I find it amazing that, with religion, people like you feel free to say that something does not exist because you can't or haven't observed it. Yet, much of our science involving the universe is made on assumptions and guesses with a lot of possibilities that are left open, not denied, because we can't yet observe anything to the contrary.


We used to not know what caused the Plague. People thought it was punishment from god for their sins and they went around flagellating themselves for it. OOps! It's actually caused by microscopic bacteria that are transmitted through flea bites, not god.

Religion is such a cop out to me. People take things that are hard to explain or difficult to understand, and take the "easy way out." For example, the argument that the human eye is so complicated and difficult to understand that therefore god must have made it, and it couldn't have possibly resulted from evolution. That's absurd in my opinion, and contrary to all principles of logic and reason.



Got any examples that weren't disproven in the last few centuries and that are currently held by people in the mainstream of religions and not the extreme fanatics?
 
2006-08-25 02:54:29 PM
Some chrches are greedy, I can't deny that. It sickens me sometimes. But many churches are very poor. My church barely scrapes by. We had a serious argument last year about putting a cell phone tower on the roof for some extra cash. In the end we did it after agreeing that half the money would go to outreach (homeless help,. Does that sound rich and greedy to you?

Just because you're not rich, doesn't mean you're not greedy. It means your bad at getting money. And you were putting the cell phone tower on the roof "for some extra cash." Getting "extra money" would seem to me to be the definition of greed. Oooh! Jesus would say doing things for extra cash is ok!

Silly generalizations indeed.
 
2006-08-25 02:56:07 PM
lazymojo


It's hard not to be moved? Hopefully you mean moved to conclude that it's sad that after thousands of years of history, human beings are still so idiotically superstitious that they believe in these ghost stories written long ago...

The world is not flat. The Sun does not go around the Earth. It IS possible to create a vacuum. Microorganisms do exist. The World was not created in Six Days. Human beings evolved. There is no Garden of Eden. Women were not created from a goddam rib.



So, because some religious fanatics pissed on your pet theories, you're going to come in here and do the exact same thing to people who share similar, though much more moderate, beliefs with aforementioned fanatics?

I suppose being tolerant of other peoples views would be too much to ask wouldn't it. So would the concept that you would be better than those you decry by not deriding their school of thought as junk.

It's really funny that, for all the reputation as the religious wackos as the aggressors attempting to snuff out science and non-believers (who are portrayed as the aggrieved victims), the first person in here to sling stones on this subject is an athiest/science fanatic.
 
2006-08-25 02:56:22 PM
My paragraph got butchered in the editing.

Now gibberish free!

In order for each person to pursue their own happiness, each must respect that actions which do not threaten to cause injury to a person physically or damage their capacity to pursue their happiness through damage to their physical works must be tolerated within reason. It thus stands to reason that actions which cause injury, or encourage other entities or circumstances which cause injury to precipitate said injury, must not be tolerated, again within reason. Having a respect and desire for personal freedom and a simultaneous appreciation for the benefits of society, means respecting other peoples pursuit of happiness to the extent that they don't rob you of your personal freedoms. Destroying a building that has no impact on you, but is a beacon of hope to others is immoral. Encouraging and justifying said destruction is equally immoral.
 
2006-08-25 03:08:08 PM
was this a construction accident?

/hehe
 
2006-08-25 03:09:40 PM
To NYMoogle:
Opps, I actually grouped you in with a few of the less rational posters.

I apologize.
 
2006-08-25 03:13:21 PM
So... has Snark.com been used enough to be cliche?
 
2006-08-25 03:16:27 PM
as i see it is gettin hateful in here again...a repost of my new standard post for threads of religeon


Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
 
2006-08-25 03:25:11 PM
bake420

Lennon is dead my friend. Hell, as long as we're talking about communists, Lenin is dead too communism died when Stalin stepped in. Dead along with Trotsky, respect for America on the world stage and a sense of moral outrage strong enough to motivate its people to action. Rough old world. www.Moveon.org Seriously. It's a kickass site. On a musical note, your tone is all wrong.

Well I just got back from a break in the fight I was weighing in heavy but still feeling alright
all I hear in the distance mines and shells
here come the sirens wailing another attack to be repelled
Do you think we're gonna make it?
I don't know unless we try
you could sit here scared to move or we could take them by surprise
it's submission that they want
it's surrender that they need
when we're doing it their way their aims will be achieved

They're gonna come when you're not ready
when you're not too well-prepared
they're gonna prey upon your weakness no man's soul is ever spared
you've got to stand up, yeah, and fight them
show them what it's all about this man is not for sale there will be no backing down

Stand up and fight and I'll stand up with you!
We shall succeed
Stand up and fight and I'll stand up with you!

They won't get me they won't get me
though they never cease to try
they won't get me they won't get me
I would rather fight and die
they won't get me they won't get me
well my friend will they get you?
when they get you when they get
you tell me what you gonna do?

Do you think we're gonna make it?
I don't know unless we try
you could sit here scared to move or we could take them by surprise
it's submission that they want
it's surrender that they need
when we're doing it their way their aims will be achieved

They're gonna come when you're not ready
when you're not to well-prepared
they're gonna prey upon your weakness no man's soul is ever spared
you've got to stand up, yeah, and fight them
show them what it's all about this man is not for sale there will be no backing down

Stand up and fight and I'll stand up with you!
We shall succeed
Stand up and fight and I'll stand up with you!

Stand up and fight and I'll stand up with you!
We shall succeed
Stand up and fight and I'll stand up with you!
 
2006-08-25 03:26:13 PM
lazymojo

Just because you're not rich, doesn't mean you're not greedy. It means your bad at getting money. And you were putting the cell phone tower on the roof "for some extra cash." Getting "extra money" would seem to me to be the definition of greed. Oooh! Jesus would say doing things for extra cash is ok!

I think you misunderstood me. By extra, I didn't mean above and beyond our expenses. I meant above and beyond the collection plate. That money was not wanted, it was needed. and the most lavish thing it was spent on was an A/C unit for the pastor's house. And why would such poor greedy people give away half the money?

And many christian denominations remand a tithe. We could easily do that. The argument that the church is too dumb to make the money it so craves is silly at best.

Jesus was a realist. He knew that people's earthly material concerns had to be taken care of before their spiritual needs were. That's why one of his miracles was to feed the crowd that gathered before he preeched. Likewise the church has to pay it's electricity bill before we can come in on Sunday.
 
2006-08-25 03:30:16 PM
Mr. Churka
I am feeling like the pacifist today
but i like your lyrics (song?)

V for Vendetta
Fight Club
Brazil

Thes are just a few of my favorite things
 
2006-08-25 03:33:29 PM
Dropkick Murphys, The Gauntlet
 
2006-08-25 03:36:06 PM
lazymojo

Question for you, not trying to troll. I'll freely admit that as a Christian, there are plenty of idiots in our religion, hell there are idiots in EVERY social/religious group.

I can acknowledge that there is a possibility that God does not exist, or at least, not in the strict sense of the Catholic Church, Allah, etc.

Can you accept the idea that there might be a higher power (even if you don't accept the creation story or religion at face value)? Don't worry, I'm not trying to set you up for a one two punch :-)
 
2006-08-25 03:36:34 PM
Bake420:
I love "Imagine." It's a great song and I agree with many of the things it calls for, although probably in a bit more of a round-about way than John intended. For example, the first verse talks about imagining there's no heaven or hell, only ourselves. I like this because it is against the fundies who only think about heaven, whether or not they're going to it, and try to scare people by waving hell in their faces. I don't believe that this is the way Christians should be. Don't worry about heaven or the afterlife, that'll take care of itself. Instead, do what you can for people today, and leave it at that. Stop prostelitizing [sic].

I also agree with the line about no religion, but only in the sense that I hate the devisiveness caused by some religious people. If religious leaders would just live and let live and stop fighting over who's more right about God, this world would be a better place.
T
hanks for posting the song. I hope more people start listening to the songs message and stop all this bickering. But then again, maybe I'm just a dreamer, too.
 
2006-08-25 03:39:00 PM
IsaacM
here here (hear hear?)
spirituality X= religeon
 
2006-08-25 03:48:33 PM
Kusanagi
lazymojo
Question for you, not trying to troll. I'll freely admit that as a Christian, there are plenty of idiots in our religion, hell there are idiots in EVERY social/religious group.

I can acknowledge that there is a possibility that God does not exist, or at least, not in the strict sense of the Catholic Church, Allah, etc.


If you can acknowledge this possibility, than you are a Christian in the loosest sense. Christianity is a heavily faith based religion, so entertaining the notion that it's wrong means Britney Spears is getting your spot in Heaven.
 
2006-08-25 03:55:14 PM
Since faith is a belief in things we cannot know, the acknowledgement that God may possibly not exist is kind of built right into our religious framework.

/Doubt != lack of faith
 
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