Because they have heads full of "faith" and no room for "science".

Because there are some people who can only be bothered to read one Book.

Because there's a lot of dumbasses in this country. And they are breeding.

Yet we elected a monkey as our Supreme Leader.

Because America is busy breeding a malleable underclass that can be easily controlled by the church, fox news, terror alerts and subliminal messages in fast food commercials.

I believe in evolution but here in Indiana I am a sad minority

Intelligent Design isn't.

CtrlAltDelete: For the same reason we think the capital of Canada is Toronto.

So do Torontonians.

Why doesn't submitter get that America has a dirtload of people in it who don't all agree with one another on a wide variety of idealogies and belief systems ...?

farkncorey

Most people agree with the rest of science. Only evolution and global warming are the topics fundies decide the fancy scienticians be lying about.

acanuck: First pages of Genesis ARE describing evolution.

Um. No. They're really, really not.

For one thing, the first pages of Genesis has plants predating the sun. Even if you wanted to subscribe to the theory I first saw put forth by Piers Anthony (though I'm sure he didn't originate it) that the first chapter of Genesis describes evolution over eons rather than literal days (something not supported by the specific divisions including nights and mornings), the order is farked all to hell. Oh, and don't forget that the plants are all there right at the start, including fruit bearing trees, well before any animals at all. Plus, you get sea creatures and birds on the same day and only later do you get land animals and insects.

On top of that, the second chapter flips everything around again and has humans preceeding animals and the animals being created to find a "help meet" for Adam.

On top of that, the whole theme of the books of the Bible is that death is the result of human sin, necessitating redemption through sacrifice (at the Temple for Jews, done by Jesus for Christians). If you were to decide that Genesis described scientific evolution, you toss aside the reason death exists (because death would have to predate humans and their actions), which also tosses aside the idea that Jesus could defeat sin by defeating death, which is the real reason fundamentalists are so against evolution in the first place.

In short, even a cursory reading of Genesis 1 and 2 and a rudimentary knowledge of evolutionary theory exposes the idea that Genesis describes evolution as a naive falsehood and whomever told you that falsehood should be ashamed.

It's very simple. It is more advantageous to those in power (both politcal and religious) for the populace to be ignorant.

Lionel Mandrake:
Because Europe got the ignorance out of their system a thousand or so years ago... ;) The US is just a little late to the party... being so young and all. ;)

Truly, it can be inferred the cause is because so many scientists have (in the past) gleefully claimed that now there's proof God doesn't exist because of Evolution. Don't be so happy to step on someone's beliefs simply because you've found the link between reptiles and birds.. :)

Leave the truth to the philosophers, and let the facts go with the scientists. ;) That way, scientists aren't perceived by the less intelligent as somehow out to destroy people's beliefs... No matter how corny a scientist thinks Christianity is, he or she doesn't have the "duty" to expose the religion as fraud because we know the universe is much older than 6000 years. (And let's face it, not everyone can grasp the subtleties of physics and biology. Not everyone is as enlightened intellectually as we Farkers....heh.) Consider certain aspects of the universe that have become commonplace simply by being there and not becoming some sort of massive "truth finding mission" by people who wish to see certain religions wiped off the map. One that comes to mind is the orbit of planets, gravity is another... These things are not "Biblical" in any way, but they are accepted because as facts, they do not have to be "traded" for the beliefs that some people hold sacred. The moon? We know it doesn't give off its own light, but clearly the Bible calls it the "lesser light", inferring that it gave off light itself like the Sun. People haven't thrown their Bibles in the dumpster because of that knowledge.

/subscribes to the theory of evolution but acknowledges that it stops short of providing a meaning for existence...

//separates his religion from his science.

Gallileo said it best: "The Bible tells you how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go..." Pretty simple philosophy... Catholics have an official position on science...(suprise! they don't think it's hooey, like they used to in Gallileo's time) It's just the weird fundies who do not. :) And well, sometimes you have to rise above the fundies and not be so pedantic when talking to a group of people who are not as gifted as you.

just my $.02....

Lionel Mandrake: So, why don't Europeans share our (national) ignorance? There are people in power in Europe. We presume they want to stay in power...so why aren't Europeans as ignorant of science as Americans?

WTF are you talking about?!? Serbia/Bosnia too long ago for you remember? Good old-school Euro religious batshiat action. The only evolution most Euros believe in is that they are more evolved than their neighbors and you.

Why doesn't America believe in evolution?
Because the most visible trend in America is Devolution.

From article: "American adults may be harder to reach: nearly two-thirds don't agree that more than half of human genes are common to chimpanzees. How would these people respond when told that humans and chimps share 99 per cent of their genes?"

I suspect their response would be: *hands over ears*
"LA LA LA LA LA!!! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LA LA LA LA!!"

Lionel Mandrake: I was talking about acceptance of evolution. Sorry, I thought the topic was clear.


Sorry. I thought you were switching to the topic of manipulation of populations by their governments and denying that Euro's used ignorance and fear and hate as weapons. My bad.

America is a young country. We are the spoiled, cocky teenagers of the world. We have raging hormones, and we think we know everything. The older countries of the world are the parents.

As teenagers, we think the rest of the world is filled with old dorky people that can't possibly know anything.

Bevets

If the bible shows anything, it shows that god is an incompetent, hypocritical liar. I will beleive scientists willing to review, retest, and re-examine their theories.

Lionel Mandrake: TheOther: I thought you were switching to the topic of manipulation of populations by their governments and denying that Euro's used ignorance and fear and hate as weapons.

Nope. Just evolution...well, science more generally, I suppose.

Good thing American government doesn't manipulate their population by fear, ignorance and hate! No siree, all brave, wise and loving are we!

Didn't deny they did. Just saying Europe is full of the same kind of ignorance and corruption, perhaps with a different angle...but I still believe that the 'evolution' that Euro's believe in is the practical application of 'they are superior and therefore have the right to exterminate their inferior neighbors'.

Lionel Mandrake:

I'm speaking in generalities (I don't have specifics to give, offhand), and be it warranted or not, some people believe strongly about certain things. Sometimes to the detriment of their growth intellectually. By the same token, some scientists have at times looked down their intellectual noses at a particular religion, and in their personal beliefs or lack thereof, have spent the time they could be pursuing facts attempting to discredit some tenet that other folks hold sacred. Carl Sagan could've lightened up on his criticism of religion for the sake of the facts he was trying to get out... but to the uneducated or undereducated, he seemed like an a-hole. Well, he probably was, but I could look past it, because Cosmos was a good show. :) I'm not saying that all do this, nor am I saying that everyone who is a Christian is anti-science. It's just that things have gotten this way by a certain series of events in the past that positioned religion and science in opposition of each other, when in reality, they can compliment each other quite well.

Like I said before, proving the age of the universe doesn't give someone the right to force a belief on someone that there is no god. What's the point? That sort of thing does nothing but polarize and divide, rather than embrace and unite.. It can neither be proven nor disproven, so let it be. The facts will take care of themselves. (hence the heliocentric universe, and the like...facts tend to withstand irrational criticism...)

The key is not to be such a smug elitist about it and merely present the facts. If people refuse to believe your facts, observe them, incorporate them, criticise them constructively, that's not your position as a scientist to begin to attack them as some mutated aberration that is going to bring down society as we know it. It's not helpful. That's all I'm saying. It's not for us to dismantle someone's belief system because it somehow creates in them a certain amount of skepticism over what they've been taught or whatnot. We can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar. ;) Leave the extremists to fight with the other extremists (Radical muslims v. fundies in a no-holds-barred CAGE MATCH!!) If we can't take everyone on the journey, well, them's the breaks, right? ;)

It should be heartening to most that Catholics did reach that position. That means that anyone can, providing we don't push them the other direction. The fact that people broke free from Catholicism's tight grip and began to think other thoughts is proof that it will happen everywhere. At least we are not repressed for believing contrary to "those in charge." (Don't worry, there's not enough of them to bring that down on us... as long as we violently defend the Constitution should the need arise.)

It's irrational, certainly. But you're referring to the extreme fundamentalist position on interpretation of the Bible. Not everyone who is a Christian is a nutjob fundie.

Truth is not something science can prove. They can aspire to it, but it's not achievable... Christians believe they are darn close (and fundies believe they are already there, picnicking), but the sad fact is, it's not gonna happen. ;) And the theory of evolution doesn't aspire to "truth"... merely "facts." And a scientist worth his lab coat would realize this. Personal philosophies aside, of course.. they can hold any belief system they wish if it helps them discover facts... more power to them. ;) I mean, science is not perfect... we've come a long way from the days of spontaneous generation and the like. But at least we're moving forward. Are we taking everyone with us? No. Is any country, society, or group? No. Not even Europe.

The fundies won't be in power forever. This has happened before and it has worked itself out. That's the beauty of the system. But if you give these nuts a cause, they're going to close ranks and it'll take more to get them out... kinda like ticks. ;)

But all is not lost. We are not bound by irrational fears of how some group of people will undermine society. We are better than that. We can see beyond it, and realize that all things change. Christ himself would be ashamed of fundies if he were walking around today.

etoof:

That's precisely what I'm talking about. All that does is galvanize the faithful. If you believe that, fine. The Bible doesn't show that to someone who holds it sacred. It's fine if you take that from the text. In fact, since it's open to interpretation, you are no less correct than someone who sees the opposite as you do. But that's not the point. If we're going to embrace these people who have been left behind intellectually, we need to be nice about it. Then in 500 years, we can joke about it all over a beer.

The ideas I get out of reading the Bible are more abstract than "flood" or "tower of Babel" being a literal tower. What I get from the flood for instance is that sometimes you will be doing something that is unpopular (sound familiar?) and don't let yourself fall into the "crowd" who are laughing at you... because in the end, you will be the one who made the right decision. :) The Tower of Babel? Communication is important in any endeavor. If you can't communicate with your fellow man, you're destined to be separated...

Is that what fundies get out of those stories? No. But that's not for me to force on them, no more than it is for them to force on me. (I agree, if they get to the point that they are forcing it via legislation or whatnot... we need to fight it tooth and nail...)

/obviously not a fundie.
// but aspire to the teachings of Christ to leave the world in a better state than he found it. (I don't find this a contradiction...)

I'm just not as pessimistic as most people about this subject I guess. :)

Lionel Mandrake:

Exactly. If God becomes a crutch for learning things... then he is no longer a help to your personally... he has become a hinderance.

I guess it took me WAY more words to describe what you put succinctly. :) Thank you for putting it better than I.

Faith, at its core, is to believe the best in people and the world and how things will all work themselves out in the end, in spite of how it looks right now or tomorrow for that matter. Faith as a way to get out of taxing your brain is unhealthy. :) Having faith in your fellow man is not contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, nor are they out of step with a belief in a benevolent God who is looking out for you so you don't slip on soap and die in the shower... ;)

Any existence to the contrary is just weird. :) And at some point in life, everyone realizes this... those who don't apparently get their own television stations. ;)

Bevets: Evolutionism is the belief that matter comes before mind (bottom up). Intelligent Design is the belief that mind comes before matter (top down). Young Earth Creation is the belief that God has revealed truth about Creation in the Bible. All three positions begin with an assumption and the respective adherants interpret the physical evidence based on their begining assumptions. The reason evolutionism is ultimately doomed is that it is based on an erroneous premise.

Interestingly, Charles Darwin was very religious and definitely *didn't* begin with a premise that the Bible was inaccurate in any way. He agonized over what he was finding because it clearly demonstrated that a (literal) interpreation of Geneis was not accurate.

The entire world of observable, concrete evidence supports the process of evolution and natural selection as being the most likely process by which modern life came about.

Will there be refinements made in the future to the specific mechanisms by which it happened? Of course. Scientists (or good scientists, anyway) will always improve or correct their theories based on new evidence and information.

Creationism has, largely, a single book to base itself on. Mostly the beginning of this book, a chapter that was written many thousands of years ago, and which contradicts itself on specifics. A book which has been translated numerous times, which means that what you read today does not give you an accurate understanding of what was written originally.

Is it not possible that, presuming God revealed the story of genesis to mankind, that He might not have explained it in a metaphorical way that would make sense to people living thousands of years ago, before we had any real understanding of the world?

Bevets: Evolutionism is the belief that matter comes before mind (bottom up). Intelligent Design is the belief that mind comes before matter (top down). Young Earth Creation is the belief that God has revealed truth about Creation in the Bible. All three positions begin with an assumption and the respective adherants interpret the physical evidence based on their begining assumptions. The reason evolutionism is ultimately doomed is that it is based on an erroneous premise.

Evolution is the theory that species change over time, inheritance of alleles, change in allelic frequencies, etc, etc. Evolutionism is an outdated term today applied only to things like Social Evolution and otherwise is an anachronistic term relating to pre-Darwinian ideas about evolution.

Evolution may dovetail in nicely with the idea of matter coming before mind, and considering the mind as an emergent property but that is also something that has emerged out of the sciences as a whole.

The theory developed from years of observations. It wasn't just cooked up to explain pre-conceived ideas and notions.

When you sound less like a broken record or script-bot people may take you more seriously. Ceasing to use disingenious arguments may also go along way towards that.

By the way did Bevets always have TF or did somebody sponsor him? He usually doesn't show up in these threads this quickly. I mean he hasn't even been summoned yet!

If there were no such thing as fundamentalists, creationists would not have such a hard time just existing.

Why can't we just get along?

I think it's not so much a matter of Americans not believing in evolution as it is most Americans not caring one way or the other. Face it, only the very religious and the very irreligious give two shiats. Most people are perfectly willing to let everyone believe what they want. Frankly, I'd be perfectly happy to see our public schools teach neither creation nor evolution, other than to say that there's this Darwin guy, and he had this neat idea that we lost our tails evolving up from little snails, and a lot of religious folks disagree because it goes against the creation myths of their faith. Done. That's one class period in the 9th grade. Want more? Go visit your local library and/or religious institution, STFU and GBTW.

entropic_existence: Ceasing to use disingenious arguments may also go along way towards that.


It's all he's got.

Abagadro: It's all he's got.

Yea, I know. Ah well time to get some sleep so I can hit the lab tomorrow and do more work on my athiestic evolutionism crusade! Check back laters.

/Not an Athiest
//No Crusade