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(AFA)   50% of Christian college students are no longer Christian upon graduation. Higher education: deprogramming fundies since 1790   (afajournal.org) divider line 1480
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18829 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Aug 2006 at 1:36 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-08-18 01:36:14 AM
towatchoverme: I mean, it's what religious people DO, man. They believe they've found the truth and they want to convince you, too.

Well, it shows that they're starting with a misguided set of assumptions. I think that religions are akin to spiritual poetry, and The Bible or any other religious text isn't for "proof" or "disproof" any more than Kubla Khan.

I could imagine it though. Take a few lines of Kubla Khan from the point of view of trying to determine its veracity.

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan a stately pleasure-dome decree

Where is Xanadu? Can it be located on a map, or is it a state of mind? And we have historical evidence that Kubla Khan existed, so this poem must be true! Kubla Khan was clearly either Lord, Liar, or Lunatic, decreeing pleasure-domes hither and yon.

Where Alph the sacred river ran

Must be a historical location that we can find using contextual evidence.

through caverns measureless to man

Wait a minute - are the caverns truly beyond mankind's ability to measure, or is it that they could be measured and man has simply failed to measure them thoroughly yet? I could see religious scholars arguing over this mundane point for millennia.

down to a sunless sea.
 
2006-08-18 01:38:28 AM
daychilde

A Christian author i read recently said something pretty profound. He said "tolerance" is a weak word. If you snuggle up to your spouse tonight and whisper, lovingly, into her ear: "honey, i tolerate you" she has every right to smack you upside the head with a haddock.

Why? Because "tolerance" has, built into it, the notion of disagreement, dislike, distrust. You tolerate those you find objectionable.

His point was that we should all - religious folks and otherwise - be striving to love. Yeah, i know, that sounds very Haight-Ashbury, but his point was that while loving a person doesn't always mean liking them (lord knows i don't always like the people in my family) to love someone means to validate and respect them even when you disagree with them.

I tend to agree. If tolerance is the best we can do, we're all screwed.

/I have officially had enough beer to join this thread
 
2006-08-18 01:39:21 AM
Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!
img224.imageshack.us
 
2006-08-18 01:39:59 AM
no because after 4 yrs of partying, drinking, farking, you dont want to be responsible enough to be a moral person.
 
2006-08-18 01:40:35 AM
So all Christians are fundamentalist Christians.
That logic, I suppose, categorizes all atheists as condescending, ignorant, bitter little people.

Because you certainly can't believe in something and be reasonable. That's why so many doctors, heads of state, and so on are insane.
 
2006-08-18 01:41:33 AM
LOL. Simply strengthening the argument that education makes you less ignorant and therefore less likely to hold weird and unrealistic viewpoints.
 
2006-08-18 01:41:55 AM
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha!111!!!!!1!!!!one!!1!
 
2006-08-18 01:42:30 AM
Too bad it doesn't work that way for High School grads. We need better science teachers.
 
2006-08-18 01:43:51 AM
50% of Christian college students are no longer Christian upon graduation. Higher education: deprogramming fundies since 1790

And programming Marxists since the 1960's.

/Not much of a christian myself, but it had to be said.
 
2006-08-18 01:44:26 AM
DimensionalPunk: We need better science teachers.

Damn straight.
 
2006-08-18 01:44:28 AM
I wasn't a practicing Catholic going into a Catholic college, and still am not one a year out...does that count??

/Cafeteria Catholicism, FTW
 
2006-08-18 01:45:27 AM
I learned on Fark that 50% of college students also like to ask me if I "want fries with that." Coincidence? I do not think that "higher education" means what you think it means.
 
2006-08-18 01:45:33 AM
LOL. Simply strengthening the argument that education makes you less ignorant and therefore less likely to hold weird and unrealistic viewpoints.

Yes, it's more logical to assume that all time and space simply chose to pop into existance at some point all by itself.


towatchoverme wins the thread, guys. We shouldn't tolerate one another, we should love one another. It would solve a lot of problems. I'm not atheist, and I'm not Christian - but I love a few people who are part of both sects, and usually like them too.
There are bad apple in every bunch, so why not discriminate against them on a personal basis. If I dug real hard, I could find a laundry list of vicious criminals that were atheist, Christian, Muslim, Pagan, or part of any other demographic.
The same people who trash all believers for being "unreasonable" then want to mock and berate -all- believers for the silly actions of a handful. Pot, kettle, black.
 
2006-08-18 01:45:53 AM
Lucky13: no because after 4 yrs of partying, drinking, farking, you dont want to be responsible enough to be a moral person.

What's immoral about partying, drinking, and farking? That sounds like a solid weekend to me.

dfenstrate: And programming Marxists since the 1960's.

Have you ever read Marx? Then STFU. I've noticed the people with the strongest opinions about Marx are always the ones who have never picked up one of his goddamn books in their lives.
 
2006-08-18 01:46:09 AM
Waaaaaaaahhhhh! They're not choosing to follow Jebus when they get to college! Waaaaaaahhhhhh! Not all colleges are binding themselves by Christian beliefs! Waaaaaaahhhhh! Waaaaaaaahhhhh!

www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk

Okay, Stewie moment over.

As a sidenote, has anyone but me ever noticed that far-right groups have hijacked the word "family?" Focus on the Family, American Family Association... Both far-right, Christian, fundamentalist organizations.

I'm all for family values, but that doesn't mean my family values are those whackjobs' values.
 
2006-08-18 01:46:32 AM
Depending on the type of college attended, as many as 51% of students who claimed to be 'born-again Christians' as freshmen said they were no longer born-again Christians four years later.

Why did the study just look at born again christians? After all they are the types of people who would be most likely to change their religion.

Anyway, I was reading somewhere recently that people who have a university degree are fare more likely to be atheists than the remainder of the population.

That doesn't just apply to the US, it is true everywhere.
 
2006-08-18 01:47:38 AM
and programming fundies since the 1960s

Lol, my political ideology teacher likes Communism, but my Econ teacher didn't like it at all. Strangley enough he liked Marx though.
 
2006-08-18 01:47:42 AM
I truthfully cannot understand the persecuted Christian syndrome. It doesn't make sense to me. Freakin' nutcases..

Let's see. People like you are randomly assholes to Christians for absolutely no discernable reason. They you say that you can't understand why they feel persecuted. Either you have no sense of Irony, or you're just a moron. I'll let you decide which.
 
2006-08-18 01:48:15 AM
czarangelus

Well, it shows that they're starting with a misguided set of assumptions. I think that religions are akin to spiritual poetry.

Couldn't agree more. Christians tend to read their religious texts with Greek eyes. A Greek notion of truth as something that can be "proven" is at odds with the ancient Hebrew notion of truth as "mystery."

The notion of biblical literalism and inerrancy would have struck the ancient hebrews as odd. (Not the modern ones, though, who are every bit as Greek and didactic -- summon Tatsuma!)

As you've shown, something can be "true" and yet be completely inaccurate. "Nothing, not even the rain, has such small hands" is my favorite example of the same thing.

However, if you're advocating a radical ad fontes approach to the canonical literature of western christianity, good luck with that.

Ironically, if you go to the eastern Orthodox traditions, though, you'll find much less of that. Much greater emphasis on mysticism and the like. Very appealing -- unless you've sat through a two-hour Russian Orthodox service and been overwhelmed by the heat, smells and litany.
 
2006-08-18 01:48:46 AM
I've always loved the American idea that University professors spout left wing propaganda at every opportunity. It's so silly, but apparently there are really people out there who believe it.

I did 4 years of University, and I have no idea what the political leanings of ANY of my lecturers was.
 
2006-08-18 01:48:47 AM
I'm one of the 50%. Went to college a devout Baptist, came out an agnostic (closer to atheist, really, but I'm willing to accept there's a chance). My school was Baptist, even, and seeing everybody else there is what did it for me. I saw a lot of hyper-devout drones that only cared about marrying the perfect wife (or hubby) and popping out 2.5 kids while singing hymns during the birthing process, and at the other end of the spectrum you had the guys who didn't give a shiat about God and were just ordinary college students that smoked dope, got laid whenever possible, all the usual. The former group were living in a bubble that didn't seem to correspond to the real world; it was in fact even titled the 'Cedarville Bubble' by quite a lot of students. Forced daily chapel didn't help matters one bit. It only took one quarter for me to be sick of showing up at chapel five days a week and having to sign a sheet of paper saying I also went to church on my own at least twice a week on top of that. By the end of that year I pretty much hated Christianity, or at least the rulesmongers of the religion.

/Yeah yeah, I should've known what I was getting into
//Still distrusts anybody that is really enthusiastic about Jay-sus and wants me to know it
 
2006-08-18 01:49:00 AM
OK so Man made God in his own self image? Or likle everything else I got that half ass backwards?
 
2006-08-18 01:49:16 AM
AladinSane, holy hyperbole, Batman!

I think that he was referring to the FUNDIES, and those who feel that they are constantly persecuted, not Christianity in general.

It's called inference. Learn it.
 
2006-08-18 01:49:26 AM
Lucky13

no because after 4 yrs of partying, drinking, farking, you dont want to be responsible enough to be a moral person.

Spoken like a true drop out.

/or perhaps a never even started?
 
2006-08-18 01:49:49 AM
Oh good, another religious flamewar.

I'll put on the kettle.

Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic: Mary Magdelene and Jesus - sweet salvation or saucy duo? Discuss.
 
2006-08-18 01:50:14 AM
Odd, I found my faith to be stronger after college than it was going in.
 
2006-08-18 01:50:45 AM
Why don't these concerned christians just send their kids to Oral Roberts U or Jerry "Farkin" Falwell's diploma mill? Oh, right...
 
2006-08-18 01:50:59 AM
A person who insists on the "reality" of some magical sky person whose existance cannot be detected in any manner whatsoever is just as loony as the person who insists that they have an invisible pink unicorn living in their garage.

I can't stand dogmatism. I'm not a religious person, and wouldn't know what religion to be a part of if I was. So I don't really understand why someone would be religious.* However, I've never seen people so blind in their beliefs until I started posted on Fark. Fark "anti-religiouses" are amazing in their blind attacks on religious beliefs.

How the fark do you know that religion A, B, C or D is wrong? You don't. That's why they call it faith, I assume. But more importantly, I live in a fairly Christian-oriented community. There are churches everywhere. But the only time religion generally comes up is when someone is bashing it. I've only gotten preached to by people who are anti-religion. Are Christians persecuted in the U.S.? Of course not. But dogmatism comes in different forms.


*Actually, lots of studies demonstrate that religious people tend to have stronger social support networks (their church is their club) and tend to score higher on "life-enjoyment" type scales. Believing that earth is temporary and something is forever is not a bad thing to believe. Perhaps it is untrue, but to think it is bad basically makes you an idiot. I wish I could believe so strongly in that.

And the power of prayer is clear (though most likely placebo effect). Again, I don't think prayer would work for me but it works for those who believe.

Point being--stop being a jackass. If you don't like religion, don't practice it. But to attack anyone who believes in some random deity shows a pure lack of science. You are making a fairly strict scientific assertion to a question that can't be answered by science in the current form. So don't try.
 
2006-08-18 01:51:08 AM
Just another thought...

I was Quaker going into my first year at college away from home, and I was Pagan coming out of it. I wonder what that means...
 
2006-08-18 01:51:18 AM
maRox


Listen to others, believe in yourself. Simple.


we have our winner


/would you like the stuffed pink rabbit or the green bear?
 
2006-08-18 01:51:27 AM
towatchoverme: If tolerance is the best we can do, we're all screwed.

A very valid point that I almost-wholeheartedly can get behind and bugger until it turns bluesupport heartily...

...except I view tolerance as a significant step down the path towards to path...

We (as humans collectively) aren't even *tolerating* - much less *loving*... :)
 
2006-08-18 01:51:51 AM
Well, that's one way to get people to believe anything the American Family Ass. believes. I don't trust them on much else, so why would I trust them on this claim?

/Christian doesn't equal fundie, but this does show the ignorance of the self-proclaimed "free thinkers."
//It certainly isn't persecution, but it still makes the people screaming about tolerance look like hypocrites.
 
2006-08-18 01:52:04 AM
Slayer.
 
2006-08-18 01:52:23 AM
The Jesus kids in college were amusing
 
2006-08-18 01:52:50 AM
Sunday school as a child, Catholic school for grades 6-12, and my parents ran my confirmation class. These are the biggest contributions to my being an antitheist.

The more you know, the more you understand. The more you understand, the less you believe.

/There is no god
//You can be offended by this, or be relieved
///Which feels better?
 
2006-08-18 01:53:42 AM
Faith is antithetic to reasoning and logic.

Thomas Aquinas would disagree with you. I only know because I know that his belief that faith can be backed by reasoning and logic helped lead to empiricism.

Plus, as a scientist, I can say that we rely on faith a lot of the time. In fact, many of our statistical assumptions are more faith assumptions than scientific or logical assumptions.
 
2006-08-18 01:53:43 AM
Roger Arseways: Quite a few of them got in trouble because they wouldn't stop pestering my friends with their goddamned religious literature.

Sure, I go to school in the Bible Belt, but at a liberal arts school where the religious nuts get eaten alive.
 
2006-08-18 01:54:02 AM
soltris
That's a similair story to the one a lot of people would give, myself included.

But you shouldn't judge the faith itself based on one sect of it, or the individual practitioners of that sect. Nor should you see their way of practicing as any valid blow or boon to your own belief.
Of all the Christians I've met, those most in tune with themselves and the world around them have been the Non-Demoninational variety, who sat down and realized they believed in God - not in man's version of God.
They tended to be the "Best Christians", too...whatever that phrase means.

I came out of my many years of Catholic schooling an agnostic with a serious distrust of any organized religion. I read up on everything from the big ones(the various Christian Sects, Islam, Judaism, Hindu, Buddhism) to the lesser known varieties(Taoism, Discordianism, various Pagan Paths)
I came out of it on a spiritual path not very much like the one anyone else is on, but my faith is still strong and it's what feels right to me. This generally means people who believe in something usually think I'm evil for not believing in -their- something...and people who don't believe at all think I'm whacko for believing anything in the first place. Nonetheless, I'm happy with where I've landed - and far better educated about other theologies for it.
 
2006-08-18 01:55:02 AM
El Freak [TotalFark]

More people are choosing to think for themselves and not just blindly believe some 2,000 year old book that says that it's possible for somebody to build a boat large enough to carry 2 of every animal...

See, it's shiat like this that pisses me off. It's quite obvious that you have never read that story. Supposedly, Noah was to gather 2 of every unclean animal and 7 of every clean animal, or something like that it's been awhile since I read it. Now, this doesn't make the story any more believable, but quit spouting off bullshiat which you do not know about.
 
2006-08-18 01:55:02 AM
Mr logo brings up a very good point... Born Agains are typically a far more 'fundamentalist' Christian denomination than say, Catholics would be. I'd wager to say that if they looked into Catholics from the North East prior to entering and leaving school, you would not see that high of a number.

Now, I'm kind of a rare bird. I went to college as more or less an agnostic who generally proposed atheism, and came out as an ardent Christian who more or less favored Catholic theology.

czarangulus: Have you ever read Marx? Then STFU. I've noticed the people with the strongest opinions about Marx are always the ones who have never picked up one of his goddamn books in their lives.

Well, those who tend to have the strongest opinions on Marx have written about him and it is fair to say that they have read him. But if you're looking for scholars in a Fark comment page, then you're not looking in the right place. With a degree in Theology, it kills me in particular to read these threads, which are more motivated by people's misunderstanding of religion or Christianity than what religion and Christianity actually are... but I've just come to accept that it's impossible to change anybody's mind unless they're willing to openly study the topic that they criticize. Whether the victims are Marx or Aquinas, it's the same mentality that motivates their 'internet critics.'
 
2006-08-18 01:55:05 AM
fileserver2.jpghosting.com
 
2006-08-18 01:56:11 AM
Our Jesus kids were very good at not being pushy. Might hand you a flyer about whatever they were doing that weekend but never anything more than that. A few of them did a Christian rock show on the student radio station that I was a manager at for a while. overall good people though. those are the types of devouts that I don't have a problem with.
 
2006-08-18 01:56:15 AM
AladinSane: People like you are randomly assholes to Christians for absolutely no discernable reason.

Just because a person is not in Group A doesn't mean they are in Group B.

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Oh good, another religious flamewar.

I'll put on the kettle.


I dunno... it seemed to start out pretty well... I have high hopes of a reasonable undercurrent even if trolls appear and get annoying... :)

DodgerOfZion: I was Quaker going into my first year at college away from home, and I was Pagan coming out of it. I wonder what that means...


Yo, you woke up to the real world...
moment>

Sorry, when *we* get to be the 80% persecuted majority, I promise that at least I myself will stop acting persecuted... *grins*

All joking aside -- I can understand anyone becoming an eclectic pagan (as opposed to a specific set path), simply because it's a very relaxed view of things... or any other such relaxed path (Bhuddist, for example)
 
2006-08-18 01:56:17 AM
YAY SMITTY! Great headline!

Out, out, you demons of ignorance and superstition! use the greatest gift god gave you, your ability to think.
 
2006-08-18 01:56:33 AM
Eat More Possum: Yet, it seems the 20% are not satisified with having a different opinion; they must expres their disgust of Christians with such vile and hatred.

Of course it's wrong to think that all non-Christians hate Christians. As Jabber said, it's more like a vocal 2%.

That said, if a small minority expresses hatred of a large majority, there's probably a reason. The vocal 2% of Christians are causing the rest of you- and us- a lot of trouble.
 
2006-08-18 01:56:46 AM
jay_vee

I did 4 years of University, and I have no idea what the political leanings of ANY of my lecturers was.

I think the assumption is usually that lecturers are "libtards" so people just don't question it. And then science often backs that view. There are a lot of fairly conservative professors, however. I only know that from being on the "inside" and would never have known before. But most of the time we tend to laugh at the people who "speak" for our political leanings.
 
2006-08-18 01:56:57 AM
Dextro, it's not worth it. Everybody on the internet has granted themselves an honorary degree in theology.
 
2006-08-18 01:57:03 AM
"But what students and parents don't realize is that today's campuses are functioning as an indoctrination into the realm of liberalism."

That should be "the realm of rational thought."
 
2006-08-18 01:57:24 AM
Roger Arseways: Christian rock show? Try doing it in the open area down by the Student Union, but that same area is near the dorms, and the damn show is being played at an hour WHEN EVERYONE IS TRYING TO FARKING SLEEP!

That pissed me off even more than the bible pushers.
 
2006-08-18 01:58:20 AM
EggSniper: /There is no god
//You can be offended by this, or be relieved
///Which feels better?


I totally understand how Christianity turns people away from religion, but I found it a disservice to myself to turn away from spirituality. I think that some people make the mistake of applying the scientific paradigm to everything rather than realizing that science, too, is extremely limited.

I think that a Philosophy of Science course should be required for all scientists and ideally for everyone. Science is predicated on the idea that you can "find" reality, and that naming phenomenea makes them in some way "real." But science is nothing more than coming up with increasingly elaborate vocabulary to describe the emperical world. It is useful in many different contexts - for instance, if you want to find out what the sun is made of or what causes AIDs.

On the other hand, there's a lot of things that science is not useful for. Science can't teach ethics, it can't teach culture, it can't teach values. There are so many things that fall out of the purvue of science.

That's why I'm a pagan myself - I think atheism leaves people blind to a lot of aspects of being human.
 
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