Is this any less valid than George Bush calling for "regime change" in Iraq and forcing out Hussein?

Oh that's right- Iraq:
was responsible for 9-11
was hiding weapons of mass destruction
was the only country in the middle east with no freedom

whatever.

Clearly this guy is deliberately echoing Dubya. Maybe we ought to just stop reenforcing the idea that one nation can demand a change of guard in another?

I never though I'd say this. I am beginning to believe that the Muslim world is beyond hope. I looked at Afghanistan and the demise of the Taliban there as hope that things could be better for women who wanted to work and people who wanted to simply live without it being a death sentence to play music.

I thought Iraq would be better without the bloody baathists.

I do still believe that there are people who just want to live, raise their families, pray and love life. Unfortunately they are drowning is a sea of hate and conquest where little children are taught that Jews use Arab blood to make matzo and are praised for saying "Death to Israel; death to America."

The people who are not radical either do nothing, sympathize or condone the behavior.

My cousin told me that I was paranoid for thinking that the ultimate wish for the radicals are to see me dead or wearing a burka. I don't think I'm wrong about that at all.

What to do?

Persepolis

You want to impose restrictions upon Iran, a nation basically run by and harboring terrorists and simply expect them to follow them? Reason with a bunch of madmen who don't even have any reguard for the lives of their on countrymen? Are you so naive to think that they will not become more violent the tighter everyone tries to squeeze them?

Either we attack or restrain them, or we should be prepared for an inevitable attack. It WILL happen if we sit by and try to play political games. A toothless dog doesn't pose much of a threat.

Catracks

You could argue that downtown Kabul has taken a turn for the better.

But you're right, the voiceless moderates are the real victims under Islam. That's why a seperation of church(or mosque) and state is so needed in EVERY government.

Catracks

I do still believe that there are people who just want to live, raise their families, pray and love life. Unfortunately they are drowning is a sea of hate and conquest where little children are taught that Jews use Arab blood to make matzo and are praised for saying "Death to Israel; death to America."

The people who are not radical either do nothing, sympathize or condone the behavior.

Because they are either in the minority or don't know if they are in the minority because the religious extremists do not tolerate dissention. Congratulations, my friend- you just uncovered the reason why many of us so fervently defend separation of church and state in our own country.

I know- the automatic reaction is that America is nowhere near that bad. I would respond that the state of Muslim nations now did not get that way overnight- it takes years, even generations, but when religion is allowed to mix with government this is what happens.

Coopster: You want to impose restrictions upon Iran, a nation basically run by and harboring terrorists and simply expect them to follow them? Reason with a bunch of madmen who don't even have any reguard for the lives of their on countrymen?

I'm not saying reason with them. I'm saying reason against them. Band together with the rest of the world to show the Iranian citizens (both the victims of and the source of the soulution to this problem) how bad their regime is for them. Heck, the average family income in Iran is less than 1,000. While the people who live in cities have multi story garages PER family. Talk about economic spread.

All I'm saying is attacking would place the Iranian disenters behind the regime they hate for protection against the west. Which is exactly what the regime wants, which is what all the saber ratteling is about. They want to provoke an attack from the west, and I'm afraid the west is going to play into their hand perfectly.

To use your toothless dog analogy. That dog will have puppies. Which it will train to be an attack dog to get revenge on the source of their toothlessness. (i dunno if that made sence. I could be way off)

Don't blame me. I voted for Rofsanjanni.

2006-08-03 01:45:35 PM RanDomino

bin_smokin
The annihilation of Israel (all of israel) is in the Hamas charter...
Pfft. They might wish for it, but any sane person realizes it's impossible.

I guess we can file these people under the insane catagory then since they keep trying.

...and has always been the stated goal of Iran's president nutjob.

Now, when you say "stated", that makes it seem like you have a public statement he has made that says that.

Did you even read the article. Read a few transcripts:

"We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live,"

here is one of many examples

Saying that all of israel's enemies just want the return of the occupied territories is just plain ignorant and absured.

I suggest you learn your macrohistory better. People do things for reasons, and occupation, destruction, and humiliation are very compelling ones. Genocide is not an end in and of itself.

It is if you are the ones that everyone is trying to wipe off the face of the map (another quote, how could you possible doubt this, just goggle it for christ's sake)

After all the territories were captured from israel's arab neighbors after they engaged israel in multiple wars with the intent of genocide.

Good thing I stated that Israel hasn't been threatened in decades, meaning that Israel's existence may have in fact been threatened before that.

Yes, and during these "decades" of peace, Israel has endured countless acts of terrorism, missiles being launched at thier cities from thier neighbors territories with thier approval, and now cross boarder attacks and kidnappings. And there has been a fundamental increase in these lately after the israeli's withdrew from lebanon and the Gaza strip. Looks like the peace is working in someones favor, just not israel's

lixivium: Don't blame me. I voted for Rofsanjanni.

I hardly ever say lol. And when I do I practically never mean it. But I loled.

This guy spouts some variation of this every couple of weeks. Scary thing is he means it.

/paging the Four Horsemen...

But not freedom from religion. I still think we take it a bit too far.

To the Muslim there can be no seperation of that kind. Religion drives and in wrapped up in everything they do. It is how they dress, what they eat, how they treat other people. It is the excuse for every power hungry bit of thuggary.

You might say Christianity is a prostlytizing (I kant spel) religion. The wish for everyone to know Jesus and be saved. Judiasm is not. They wish to be left alone to make new Jews the natural way. Islam however in in basic tenant is to make every person on earth SUBMIT to the will of Allah, pay heavy taxes to the Caliphate and be governed by such or DIE.

How do you deal with that? You fight until they have no teeth to fight back with. You fight until they leave you alone for awhile (read regoup and rearm). The attitude will never change.

bin_smokin

I hate ahmadenjad, I hope he loses power as soon as possible. But in all fairness the real quote, if you understand farsi, was he said that Zionism should be wiped off the map, not jews, not the country of Israel.

He's still an asshat though. I just don't like how people use that quote as justification of Iranian bloodthirst when he was in fact not talking about genocide.

It would be like Regan saying he wants to wiped communism off the map doesnt mean he wants to nuke russia.

Bad example?

Israel can remain Jewish, or democratic for all citizens. It cannot remain both.

I do find it odd how many Christians in the USA ignore the plight of Lebanese and Palestinian Christians.

I remember back in the 1980s the Palestinians realised that airplane hijackings just didn't work and only served to piss off Europeans and Americans. I hope that one day Palestinians realise the same about suicide bombers.

Israel's very existence has not been in danger since 1973. It was probably in danger in 1967 -- I don't care if Israel struck first, Nasser didn't kick out the UN force in Sinai and mass 100k Egyptian soldiers in there to have brunch with Moshe Dayan. It was certainly in danger in 1948.

To sit there and argue, with a straight face, that Israel's very existence in endangered today, while Israel has killed more people from a smaller population in BOTH intifadehs and this current campaign, smacks to be of deliberate disingeniousness.

LOL, not sure I get the toothlessness analogy but good shot anyway :)

Ok so we band together with the rest of the world to show the Iranian people how they need to overthrow their government? These Iranian people that don't have the means to attack or protect themselves? Then what happens if they do, the Iranian govt. kills them and blames us for trying to incite civil war? No, they're going to do what they want to do until someone stops them. We can try and reason against them all we want, but what do we do when they don't respond... keep trying to reason? At some point you have to give them a reason to listen to you.

There's a reason we swat flies away but don't to the same to bees. They fight back.

\Likes animal analogies for some reason today.
\\Can't make that a habit.

Catracks: How do you deal with that? You fight until they have no teeth to fight back with. You fight until they leave you alone for awhile (read regoup and rearm). The attitude will never change.

I disagree. Maybe I'm being blindly optomistic. But I think the fighthing until regrouping and rearming will just perpetuate and add on to the problem. Islam is indeed in a very bad place now. And in need of Major reform that other religions went through hundreds of years ago. But I think it's possible (not easy) For the modernization of Islam to make the relgion able to fit into a world scene.

I seem to remember eliminating the Jews was someone else's final solution.

Catracks

But not freedom from religion. I still think we take it a bit too far.

We are guaranteed both freedom of and freedom from religion. Argue if you want, but the Supreme Court has made it fairly plain. Note also, that protecting my freedom FROM religion does not in any way impede the right of x-tians to have freedom OF religion.


You might say Christianity is a prostlytizing (I kant spel) religion. The wish for everyone to know Jesus and be saved.

If they could manage to do that without trying to ban gay marriage, stop abortions, and put the 10 commandments on courthouse lawns, that would be great. But they seem to have trouble doing that.

Coopster

You're right. It's not going to be easy. But in my eyes miltary action is less feasble than trying to incite rebellion.

In other words, the only way I see Iran chaning for the better is through rebellion. I can't (and I've tried looking at every angle) see how attacking Iran won't bring even the moderates there to adopt a hatred for the west.

Bush says a lot of things wrong. But he was right saying this is a war of Ideology. And victory can only be obtained through that. Again, easier said than done.

Tatsuma: These men tried

www.magister.msk.ru

www.chiny.republika.pl

Didn't really work, though. In fact, they are the two biggest Mass-Murderer the Earth has ever known.

They didn't try to eliminate belief in all religions -- they tried to eliminate all of them except for their own cults of personality.

Which is just a more extreme form of the extremisms of the other religions.

hmmmm Persepolis. What do you think "wiping Israel off the map means? Convincing the Jewish population to throw up their hands and give up Israel as an unworkable system?

Communism is an ideology; not a people.

I believe they really mean to slaughter a people.

Tatsuma

I looked on Google video and Youtube with no luck. I found it on Yahoo! video. It was a link to google's video. But once it goes to google it says the video is no longer available.

Catracks

Again. I don't mean to be a mullah apologist. But he never said "wipe Israel off the map" That's a misquote. I'm chalking that up to just a problem with translation and not trying to put words in his mouth.

But the actual quote is "wipe the threat of zionism off the map"

But don't get me wrong. He's still batshiat crazy.

The video Obsession can be downloaded and played here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q=Obsession%3A+Wha t+The+War+on+Terror+Is+Really+About&hl=en

It really is a scary look at what the aim of these people are.

Imagine if Israel said the solution to the world's problems would be to kill all the muslims.

Un Farking Real.

Catracks

Thats the same link I found. It still says video unavailable.

Maybe it knows I'm iranian?

Shwirv: Imagine if Israel said the solution to the world's problems would be to kill all the muslims.

Un Farking Real.

Yes. Thank god Israel has enough sence never to go on record with that stance.

I don't see you're point though. It's like saying, Imagine if your dad said the solution to his problems would be to kill your mom.

Yes, that's horrible. Good thing he didn't.

I'm pretty sure his point is that if Israel were to say something that outlandish it would be roundly denounced whereas this moran says it and gets standing O's.

Tatsuma

What was the gist of the video?

mvfreeman

I have to say, for the third time in this thread. He never said he wants to kill jews. At least never in a public speach (I don't doubt that's what he wants though, he's an asshat)

Still the quote was about wiping an ideology off the map. Not a relgion. Not a race.

I was told the other day that these sort of comments attributed to Iran are all just Israeli propaganda. I guess this is just another example.

Persepolis: But the actual quote is "wipe the threat of zionism off the map"

I hear the beaches in Threat are lovely this time of year.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has openly called for Israel to be wiped off the map.

"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world," the president told a conference in Tehran on Wednesday, entitled The World without Zionism.

"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land," he said.

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayat Allah Khomeini.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E6BF77-6F91-46EE-A4B5-A3CE0E9957EA.ht m

paygun

I wouldn't go that far. I just think its a matter of a simple mistranslation. Or at the most controvercial, a forced rough translation to make for more sensational news.

Anti-semitism is coming back to the mainstream again. Spearheaded by leftists

I hope you don't believe that. I really, really do.

If it wasn't for a hatred of "towel-heads", and a desire for the Jews to possess Israel to bring Jesus back, the bigots on the right would be voluably expressing their antisemitism. On the left you have people who sympathize with what they see as an oppressed Palestinian people, and now, a Lebanese populace being attacked. Their is a difference between the latter view and the former. If Israel ceases to be important to the right, you will see what antisemitism really looks like.

Besides, the redneck racists on Fark making the anti-Jew comments probably didn't vote for Kerry.

D'oh. "there" != "their", I know.

Guys, I hate to sound like an apologist some more, but he is a politician. Whether he believes in Israel's total destruction or not as a "final solution" (sorry!), he's saying because he wants to say it. And he wants to garner a response.

As an aside, I've heard a lot of his more extreme rhetoric is simply mistranslated, even if slightly. He may not totally want another holocaust but altogether regardless of his exact terms he views Israel as an enemy. But, he does so as a politician. Not particularly as a Muslim leader or a Hitler-esque figure. That said, maybe we should examine his motives for saying these sort of things.

Persepolis,
Ya are? Maybe it knows that I'm trying to drain bandwidth. I don't know where the video went. i can't access it at all.

Do you have family there? Did you or family come over during the revolution? Is it true that a large group of people there have had it with the Mullahs?

I just realized I assumed that you were in the US. How Americentric is that?

I guess Al-Jazeera is run by the Israelis too.

muck4doo

If you listen to that speach in farsi. He says zionism, not israel.

This is a mistranslation.

Again. I'm being put in a position I don't like to be in. He is crazy. He is killing Iran. I just don't like how people misquote him. Especially when it's used as fodder in a political debate.

Not trying to goad you persepolis but the last time I checked the ideology of zionism is the belief in the creation and support of a jewish homeland in the ME. So call me thick skulled but in that regard he wants to wipe out a country. Which happens to be mostly one religion and/or race.
I dont see the difference.

muck4doo: Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has openly called for Israel to be wiped off the map.

I brought that up the other day. I think the Israeli conspiracy must have infiltrated Al Jazeera too.

The only option now is suicide bombing.

He really needs to collect his thoughts before shooting off his mouth. He left out some key adjectives. I'm positive what he meant to say was:

"The real cure for the conflict is the elimination of the Zionist regime, but there should be an immediate UNILATERAL PERMANENT ceasefire first"

/like that would EVER happen
//what a camel farkin' tool
///needs to be pied a la Bill Gates

Oh. Profile.

2006-08-03 04:03:43 PM Persepolis

I don't know the language, so I'll take your word for it. I just wonder why Al-Jazeera would mis-translate it like that.

Catracks

Things started getting rough for my family after the revolution. My mom lost her job due to sexism and my dad was put in really tough positions because he worked for a newspaper and refused to print propeganda pieces. He was forced out and ended up working as a translator in the japaneese embassy.

Then during the Iran/Iraq war my Uncle was killed and there were people being killed in the cities all the time. Luckily my immediate family was pretty well to do and had connections outside of Iran (thanks in part to my dad's old job and in part to my grandpa who was cheif of police in tehran under the shah) and we were able to leave. I still have family there and it bums the hell out of me to see how different out lives are.

Persepolis: This is a mistranslation.

Think about that for a second. If you said "ice cream" and it was translated as "genocide" wouldn't you correct that? He's the prez of Iran. He can get the attention of the media if he wants it, and he can say over and over again "I didn't mean I want to wipe Israel off the map" if he wants to. He can have someone say it in English, too.

But he doesn't.

mvfreeman

The way I took it was He was talking against Jewish politics. Again it's splitting hairs, you're right. He still shouldn't be in charge of a country. But he's not advocating genocide. (publically at least)

The Palestinian people may seriously want the return of those occupied lands, West Bank and Gaza. However, if Mahmoud says differently, don't forget he's the President of IRAN. He doesn't speak for anyone, save maybe Hezbollah. I totally empathize with the Palestinian cause but does that make me in lines with Iran? No. Ahmedinedjad is a polemist and he's great at all this rhetoric, and it's helping to unite his people blah blah blah, at least that's how I see this. However, as usual nothing good is happening for the Palestinians. Nothing good ever happens for those suckers. It's sad, really.