Occams_Electric_Razor: Ultimately it's irrelevant, since the only thing that matters is whether you win or not.

So, ummm, more dead civilians now because you use them as a shield, and after years and hundreds of thousands of them dead you get to make the other people leave and your side "won."

Isn't that like ripping up a good baseball card for everyone you trade?

Tatsuma: The Duke of Carrot Flowers: So the war on Lebanon is a religious one?

Where the hell did I say that? Some arse made a crack about "Religion of Peace" and I wanted to explain things. We believe in Justice and that Peace comes out of Justice but that sometimes, we need to fight because there is such a thing as Good and Evil and war is a part of human nature

"Do not resist evil" is not a jewish saying. "If a man wants to kill you at 6, kill him at 5" is, on the other hand.


St'une joke. Look it up. But I suggest that you quote the posts that you respond to because your post, taken out of context, was a little strange.

MAGORN

I wouldn't characterize Israelis as whining about human shield tactics of Hezbullah.

I would say that the international community is outraged that civilians are dying.

I would say that Israel is pointing out Hezbullah human shield tactics as the reason civilians are dying.

I would say that the world community is whining that Israel is not allowing these tactics to have their desired effect - namely: Israel will not stop bombing locations Hezbullah is firing from.

Tatsuma: "Do not resist evil" is not a jewish saying."

Rabbi Yeshua would like a few words with you. Hopefully you won't have to meet him in person any time soon....

I_C_Weiner

Warped analogy.

It's the thing that bothers me most about this conflict; while hiding behind cilivians is a despicable act, killing them is even worse.

wee beastie: If the IDF had as little respect for human life as Hizb'allah, I think you'd have a completely different opinion of their effectiveness.

If we put the IDF in a vaccuum, it's clearly the superior military force when compared to Hezbollah.

However, I believe it's necessary to take into account the hinderences that they're placing upon themselves when judging their effectiveness since those hinderences directly affect it

Tatsuma:"Do not resist evil" is not a jewish saying. "If a man wants to kill you at 6, kill him at 5" is, on the other hand.

It's good to know that killing is a part of your culture. Just one more reason for me to mock your stupid religion. And just so you don't think I'm being biased: fark Islam and Christianity as well. Seriously, you all deserve each other.

MrNIX

While I am completely for saving innocents, Israeli innocents would continue suffering if Israel did nothing (ie. didn't kill civilians). And as far as government go, the ratio of Foreign civilians to Native civilians is not 1:1 in valuing life. What the actual ratio is depends. But I tend to believe that civilians who harbor Hezbollah purposefully are asking for a bomb and those who don't need to make their voices louder and kick the Hezbollah out of their house/hospital whatever.

Mosey: So, ummm, more dead civilians now because you use them as a shield, and after years and hundreds of thousands of them dead you get to make the other people leave and your side "won."

At the end of the day, a pyhrric victory is still a victory.

MrNiX: If you were sitting in your house watching TV (probably a reality show) with your family and a man chased by the police broke in and took you hostage: would you think it appropriate force for the police to destroy your house, killing both your family and the perp?

The police aren't armed with weapons that can destroy my house. However, if a man broke into my house and took my family hostage, I would want him dead ASAP, and if that meant that a sniper had to take a risky shot while he was hiding behind me then so be it.

It's not really a perfect analogy anyways, but that's the best I can explain it. If the police needed to bulldoze a section of my house to get to the guy holding my family hostage I would gladly allow them to because my family is more important than a part of real estate will ever be.

cryptozoophiliac: Rabbi Yeshua would like a few words with you. Hopefully you won't have to meet him in person any time soon....

Rabbi Yeshua was not the Messiah according to Jews. Many Jews see him as a misguided poser at best.

Think McFly! Think!

Tatsuma
Hey man, Look I can tell this stuff is getting to you lately. You're getting mad lately, and thats normal.

Why deal with these posts right now?

Go out and grab a canoe ride, go jogging, and clear your head. I think the anger, frustration is clouding you.

There must be a few incindiary posts just above this one. Gotta be. There will be more tomorrow. Take a break, Go take a break and do something to clear your head, and come back strong tomorrow, ok? Dont fall for the downward spiral into angry posts.

best wishes

bobroberts

Do you hate Blacks/Mexicans/Japanese/Chinese, because the fact that people are different races or from different countries is also a cause of conflict? Thinking this is about religion shows your lack of understanding of the world. People fight for lots of reasons (100 Years War, American Independence, Civil War were not religious). You need to mature a bit before you make comments.

Chiggity Chza

ATTN: I MASTERED BASIC HTML

Tatsuma

no problem. i was wondering if you received it. take your time.

Lebanon should be very grateful they picked a fight with Jews instead of the Russians. They would have turned Beirut into small individual chunks of concrete and killed or displaced half the population of Lebanon.

Course they would have done that after getting several thousand of their dudes killed in idiotic tank and ground assaults, but still, that's just how they fight.

MrNiX
If you were sitting in your house watching TV (probably a reality show) with your family and a man chased by the police broke in and took you hostage: would you think it appropriate force for the police to destroy your house, killing both your family and the perp?
---------------------

If the perp was randomly firing 100 rockets a day into my country when he had me as a hostage I would be a little pissed but I can understand why the police had to kill me. Realistically, if anyone broke into my house they would be dead before they made it 2 steps inside. Similarly, if the KKK pulled a rocket launcher truck into my driveway and started firing rockets at my neighbors I'd kill them too.

Oh, I agree my analogy sucks. I'm not even sure where I stand on this issue anymore.

bbcrackmonkey

yeah the russians were pretty brutal in chechnya. torturing pows and civilians they caught. however the russians really dont know tactics very well. we did a much better job at protecting our own forces and killing insurgents in the battle of fallujah than they did in grozny.

Let's take the Qana incident, for example. There is a rocket launcher battery on the top of the building, shooting dozens of rockets at Israel. Israel strikes the building. There were 57 women and invalid children in the building. How the fark was Israel supposed to know that, and what were they supposed to do?

I'm a little late for this party, but hey...

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34186

The Red Cross and the inhabitants of Qana say there were no rockets launched.

Masen Hashen, a 30-year-old construction worker from Qana who lost several family members in the air strike on the shelter, said there were no Hezbollah rockets fired from his village. "Because if they had done that now, or in the past, all of us would have left. Because we know we would be bombed."

Qana had been a shelter because no rockets were being fired from there, survivors said. "When Hezbollah fires their rockets, everyone runs away because they know an Israeli bombardment will come soon," Abdel said. "That is why everyone stayed in the shelter and nearby homes, because we all thought we'd be all right since there were no Hezbollah fighters in Qana."

Lebanese Red Cross workers in the nearby coastal city of Tyre told IPS that there was no basis for Israeli claims that Hezbollah had launched rockets from Qana.

"We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana," Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told IPS at their headquarters. "When we rescue people or recover bodies from villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear of either of those."


Of course, that would mean the IDF lied about Qana, but they would never ever do that again, would they? I mean, surely they learned their lesson from ten years ago, when they claimed they had no visual intel on their shells killing 100 civilians in Qana, only to have a UN videotape clearly show a drone was active, causing them to retract their story.

http://www.norplatoon.net/content/view/87/53/

Jake Steed: they would be dead before they made it 2 steps inside

Jack Bauer and Chuck Norris learned everything the know from you

2006-08-02 01:15:35 PM Sunny Ray
NASAM
That was funny. However, Jake Steed is still an idiot.
--------------------

I guess a handjob is out of the question then?

infantry

i see you have also mastered something, trolling! It's amazing how a comment that is directed to someone specific is replied to by some douchebag who thinks he knows all. Oh yea my bad for putting in basic HTML because I am the only farker that knows it and does it in the forum. As I recall everyone of your post has basic html in it. Get bent infantry you and your shiatty ass HTML skills. farking dolt!

The most annoying thing here is the lack of figures on Hizballah's damage.
Israel's Chief of Staff said something on the lines of "We killed hundreds of Hizballah militants. Not one hundred, not two, perhaps more than three", so Channel-2 news runs "400 Hizballah members killed" in the ticker. "250 rocket launchers destroyed" is displayed there as well. Yesterday, some guy said that Hizballah lost two thirds of its rocket launchign capabilities.
I haven't heard matching Hizballah figures.
Seeing as Hizballah doesn't provide figures, Israel has a good reason to exaggerate the figures shown to the public and it's nearly impossible for anyone else to get reliable figures about the damage done to a group of Hizballah's nature, the only thing about this war that can be viewed with some degree of certainty is the number of dead Lebanese, which is the focus of the media.

Occams_Electric_Razor: At the end of the day, a pyhrric victory is still a victory.

Only if you see things as a black and white win-loss column. Is North Korea as well off as South Korea (if you consider North Korea esentially "won")?

What about Cuba?

Losing an entire generation and/or making your nation poorer isn't exactly winning. I suppose you can mumble "we won" as you stand in line for bread for the next 50 years.

"the only thing about the lebanese side of the war that can be viewed with some degree of certainty is the number of dead Lebanese, which is the focus of the media."

Tatsuma: You backed up a statement you made supporting a straw-man fallacy. What is there to respond to?

2006-08-02 01:35:56 PM scseth
Jack Bauer and Chuck Norris learned everything the know from you
-------------

Other way around my friend.

Chiggity Chza

relax man, i am teasing you. cant we find a little humor or fun in something?

/i got teh html skillz!

bobroberts: What is there to respond to?

What is your infactuation with Tatsuma? Every one of your posts has targeted him. Some of which brought in material from completely different threads. Are you just secretly hoping elchip will make your own card?

bbcrackmonkey: "Rabbi Yeshua was not the Messiah according to Jews. Many Jews see him as a misguided poser at best."

Yet he was Jewish, and did say "do not resist evil". He was also revered as a prophet by many Jews, as well as Muslims. He even turns up in Sufi literature.

/not the McFly you seem to be looking for....

hezbollah, hizbullah what the fark is it? and whats the farking difference?

infantry: yeah the russians were pretty brutal in chechnya.

Both sides were pretty brutal, but one side had all the firepower and didn't tiptoe through the tulips with those assholes about it. They turned Chechnya into rubble and killed or displaced half the population.
A really good book about it was written by a Russian soldier called "Assault on Downtown Grozny".

Assault on Downtown Grozny
Chapter 1:

I'm running. The lungs are bursting. The damned wheeze is a murder. Have to run a zigzag path (in our brigade we call it "run a screw").
God, help... Please help. Help keep this insane tempo. That's it, if I ever get out of here - quit smoking. Zapp... Zapp... Sniper!!??... Get down and crawl, crawl out of the killing zone.
Lying. All seems OK - no sniper, probably just "shul'nyak".
Alright, now catch your breath, find your way around and race ahead - to the Central Post of our brigade's the first battalion. Just a few hours ago they reported on catching a sniper. From the report we knew he was Russian and, from his own words, even from Novosibirsk. F..ing compatriot. On two APCs, along with the recon squad I set off to pick up "the clapper".

En route to the Central Train Station, the streets are crammed with burnt and mangled hulks of "armour" and strewn with dead bodies. The bodies of our Slavic brothers, all that's left of the Mikop Brigade, the one that "spooks" burnt and wiped out on the New Year's Eve 95-96. God, help me... let me out of here...

They said, when the First Battalion busted the "demons" out of the Station building, as the gunfire slacked off, one of the grunts, having looked around, howled. From then on other grunts stayed away from him - another crank. Now charging through the walls like spellbound, scared of nothing. And there are enough screwballs like that in every unit, the enemy and ours. Eh, Mother Russia, what've you done to your sons? We thought, maybe medivac the fellow, but then again, can't even medivac the casualties, and this one, though a crank, still fighting. Up there on "The Continent" he'd definitely go nuts."

Here's a link to Assault on Downtown Grozny.

http://www.lib.ru/MEMUARY/CHECHNYA/chechen_war.txt

Chiggity Chza: hezbollah, hizbullah what the fark is it? and whats the farking difference?

Phonetic spellings of a non-English word? Both are correct, both are wrong.

bbcrackmonkey

jesus that sounds like ramblings of i shell shocked soldier. sounds good though - maybe the incoherentness of the post is from language translation???? or is the rest of the book like that?

scseth: I just think his arguments are intellectually dishonest. I suppose it's stupid for me to target him, though; nothing I say will ever change his mind, and vice versa.

BlindMan: Who are you?

What do you want?

Where are you going?

Who do you serve, and who do you trust?

When are you?

Why do you keep touching me?

bbcrackmonkey
Both sides were pretty brutal, but one side had all the firepower and didn't tiptoe through the tulips with those assholes about it.

Yep, how'd that work out for them? Did they crush the rebels? Now Chechnya is in a state of peace and no Chechans are attacking Russia right?

Chiggity Chza: hezbollah, hizbullah what the fark is it? and whats the farking difference?

Different ways to transliterate it.
According to my calculations, there are 108 ways to spell it.

I prefer Hizballah because I feel it matches the Arabic spelling the best, but to each his own.

bbcrackmonkey

You're completely forgetting our callous murder of Japanese civilians, as well as all the collateral damage from bombing occupied French cities.

Yes, but it was deemed necessary to end the war. Hindsight being what it is, maybe things could have been played better, but they did what they thought was best. Besides, you don't hear the Japanese or French complaining about it much these days, do you?

The Jews have always celebrated the killing of their enemies. They even have a holiday which ends with a beheading!

The Duke of Carrot Flowers
/Your spelling is worse than mine and I'm french-canadian. That's sad.

Misspelling in FARK saddens you? How long have you had teh intarnets?

Black and White much?

How so? The purpose of the use of overwhelming force is to essentially save your soldiers' lives, whether it is in urban warfare setting on in a conventional war.

BTW wasn't there a claim that all of the WMD, that wasn't found in Iraq, was moved to the Bekka Valley in Lebanon? Could it be true that when we preparing to invade Iraq they moved there firepower to Lebanon?

There sure as hell was very little resistance in the push to Baghdad, and they may not have had Nuks, but there was a ho-lotta Chem, shiite we sold them alot in the 80's.

infantry: jesus that sounds like ramblings of i shell shocked soldier. sounds good though - maybe the incoherentness of the post is from language translation???? or is the rest of the book like that?

He goes in between talking about combat and talking about life on the base. He probably is shell-shocked, you should read some of the insane shiat he survived through. At one point in the book during an infantry charge he kills a Chechen in hand-to-hand combat by jumping on him knees-first and crushing his ribs, and in another part of the book he watches as two Chechen child soldiers, not older than 12, are 'finished off' as they lay unconscious and wounded. He describes how their chests exploded from machine-gun fire, etc.

Sometimes it is a bit difficult to decipher because the translation is rough, but overall I found it to be an amazing book and an amazing look into the mind of a Russian grunt fighting in Chechnya.