I bet it won't be the US. No one would agree to that. It would be a magnet for terrorism and completely defeat the point of the force.

Pay no attention to the idiots behind the curtain. I assure you that they are in no way trying to immanentize the Eschaton.

Wasn't Hebollah formed to get Israel out of Lebanon?

Didn't Israel withdraw from Lebanon in 2000?

And Hebollah continued to exist, get involved in politics, control the southern part of the country, and do nasty things to Israel?

Why should anyone trust them?

elchip
Wasn't Hebollah formed to get Israel out of Lebanon?

Didn't Israel withdraw from Lebanon in 2000?


They didn't withdraw enough, aparently they wanted them to withdraw from the continent, preferably Europe or the US.

Why can't we all jkust get along. If it wasn't for all of the Jews in Israel, the muslims of that region would have probably killed each other off by now

Submitter has a good point. The plan that looks looks is shaping up to end this thing is a prisoner exchange and a bigger international peacekeeping force at the border (there already is a small UN peackeeping force there). What Condi and Israel don't understand is that:

1. They cannot defeat Hezbollah miltarily. If they were going to, it would have happened in the 25 years that Israel spent fighting in Lebanon.

2. The longer they wait to sign the cease fire, the stronger Hezbollah gets. They are like in the Sci-Fi shows when you zap the alien spaceship and they just feed off the power and get stronger.

3. Lebanon is going to have to be the ones to get rid of Hezbollah, but they are not strong enough to do it. Its going to take a few years.

elchip: Why should anyone trust them?

Because Hezbollah has been relatively peaceful the last few years. There is a reason most of the news in the region has been coming out of gaza lately, because the Lebanese border has been relatively quiet. And if Israel could live with Hezbollah 3 weeks ago, they can do it now.

What caused the flareup then, iron81?

"Screw a cease fire - the boss is making billions a day..."
-- White House national security spokesman Frederick Jones

Sounds good to me.

The conflict has left more than 400 people dead on both sides of the Lebanese-Israeli border.

just in case this sounds, oh, I don't know, a little vague...

Where things stand.

In Israel: Hezbollah continued its barrage of missile attacks on northern Israel, firing more than 40 rockets and slightly wounding 13. Overall, the death toll stands at 37, with 17 people killed by Hezbollah rockets and 20 soldiers killed in the fighting.

In Lebanon: At least 384 people have been killed in Lebanon, including 20 soldiers and 11 Hezbollah fighters, according to security officials. At least 600,000 Lebanese have fled their homes, according to the WHO -- with one estimate by Lebanon's finance minister putting the number at 750,000, nearly 20% of the population.

willywanka "just in case this sounds, oh, I don't know, a little vague... Where things stand."


Uh-huh.


Well maybe next time they'll think twice before kidnaping 2 Israeli soldiers and firing rockets from Lebanon to Israel.

Hagbardar

Holy shiat, I just started reading that book today.

Coincidence? I think not.

the_gospel_of_thomas: Well maybe next time they'll think twice before kidnaping 2 Israeli soldiers and firing rockets from Lebanon to Israel.

11 of the 384 dead are confirmed Hezbollah militants.

"11 of the 384 dead are confirmed Hezbollah militants."


.... according to Hezbollah.

Seems like the Israelis need to spend more time at the target ranges, so they won't make so many mistakes ... or maybe Hezbollah needs to stop moving in next to civilians and making this so difficult, when the Israelis are trying to kill the Hezbollaneezee.

Either way, maybe next time they'll think twice before kidnaping 2 Israeli soldiers and firing rockets from Lebanon to Israel .... next time.

DIA

Just because you need to see everything in black and white does not mean shades of grey do not exist. How about some reasonable arguments instead of sarcasm and hyperbole?

tgot

...next time

And there we have the heart of the matter. As justified and righteous it may be to strike back at it's agressors, Israel's little war here will not solve the problem. It will just mean more bloodshed on both sides of the line, and probably drive people into Hezbollah's arms at the same time.

Dancin_In_Anson
.....[Snip] The rest are women and children ....[Snip]

Actually arn't there Militant Children and Women too? Plus those who aid and support them, by allowing them to use their homes as bases, arn't they just as guilty? How many of the "384" were truly innocent?

nygman212

Define innocent. Is it justified to kill someone because they live with their father, who happens to be a hezbollah militant? Because they have dinner and help to shelter their cousins and uncles who are in hezbollah? If any of us were in their situation, would we do any different?

EzraS: "and probably drive people into Hezbollah's arms at the same time."


- and there they will die.

The next time Hezbollah kills and Israeli.

... Wash, rinse, repeat.

At some point, the Arabs are going to have to decide if they hate the Jews more than they love their own children.

DIA

One where people make asinine statements and then act surprised when no one takes them seriously?

Dancin_In_Anson: What website do you think this is?

Ohh!! Ohhh!!!

I know this one!!!!


... ahem ....


This is the website where you can post an image of a dog doing something extremely wierd with the caption, "this will end badly" ... as well as images of Michelle Malkin for no apparent reason whatsoever.

tgot

I agree to a point. The only people who can end the 'war on terror' are the people of the middle east whose sons and daughters commit terrorist acts. There cannot be any al quaeda, hamas, or hezbollah unless they have a ready supply of young men and women to send to their deaths.

But really, when was the last time a large group of people acted rationally? Especially in a region of the world that is socially behind much of the rest of us? It seems like an awful big risk to just assume that if we kill enough they will finally have a mass-epiphany.

When the going gets tougher than you thought, call NATO, so Jews wont be at risk.

EzraS: It seems like an awful big risk to just assume that if we kill enough they will finally have a mass-epiphany.

And I would agree with you as well.

For perspective, I sould suggest you and I could have a better perspective if you had lived in Isreal for the last 15 years, and I could have lived in Palestine, or Lebanon for the last 15 years. I see this conflict from far away, and I know that if I have lived in Palestine, I would probably hate the Jews. ( and want them killed. )

Similarly, I think that if you had lived in Israel, and saw your friends and families killed at a pizza parlor, on the way to work, or from a random rocket attack ... maybe you'd have another point of view from having lived the experience.

For me, thank God, I live in the US, far away from this.

iron81: And if Israel could live with Hezbollah 3 weeks ago, they can do it now.

And just ignore the fact that they kidnapped 2 soldiers? Hmmm... This word, "peaceful", I do not think you understand its meaning.

DIA

Sorry, EzraS...I shed no tears for those that allowed hezbollah to build a heavily armed militia that has a habit of screwing with a very defensive neighbor in their midst.

Wive? Sons? Daughters? You can't approach a war situation like this one looking at it in a traditional-war mindset. In todays wars, the line between civilian and combatant is very thin indeed. This does not suddenly mean that we should abandon all of our hesitations about killing civilians. We should not have to become our enemy to fight it.


Neither I nor Israel put them in that position

Which is not a reason for them to die. I understand that collateral damage happens, that hezbollah purposefully places their munitions in heavily populated civilian areas. But none of this means that it is 'right' for innocent people to die.

EzraS: But none of this means that it is 'right' for innocent people to die.

Who says it's right?

It happens. The Israelis drop leaflets warning people that they are going to get bombed. They use high-tech expensive weaponry designed to minimize collateral damage. Israel is not trying to kill innocents.

What would you have them do?

untrustworthy

I wasn't finding fault with Israel's methods, I was finding fault with nygman212's moral analysis.

untrustworthy: Who says it's right?

It happens. The Israelis drop leaflets warning people that they are going to get bombed. They use high-tech expensive weaponry designed to minimize collateral damage. Israel is not trying to kill innocents.

What would you have them do?



Yes.


They could do nothing.

They could ask politely.

They could bring in the UN.

They could also all die in a fire. ( That's what the arabs want, it would seem. )

Ezras have you ever seen a graphic like this before?



Now, this is new to me, I was looking for the sarcastically phrased "stop the Jewish occupation of the Arab lands!" ,but you get the point. Look at this map.

See all the Red areas ... and that little strip of blue??



If the other Arab countries really cared about the Palestineans, then maybe they might want to invite them into their homes, and help them relocate to Egypt, or Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or Pakistan, or all of the other African countries, or the rest ... but guess what, the other Arab countries don't give a crap about the palestineans, as much as they hate the Jews.

They could help end this conflict by the end of this year by mailing them all airline tickets to all of the Palestineans and leaving Israel the fark alone.

In less than 6 months. Over. No more fighting. Just .... stop.

But they don't want to do that. They want to kill the Jews. But hey - what do you care, ?? I mean, sure, it sucks to be a Jew in Israel so many years ago when they were suicide bombing the population, before they built the wall, and tried to create a buffer zone, and did this and that ...

Yeah.

EzraS: I wasn't finding fault with Israel's methods, I was finding fault with nygman212's moral analysis.

Ok.

the_gospel_of_thomas: They could also all die in a fire. ( That's what the arabs want, it would seem. )

That seems to be the case, for the most part. But they don't seem to understand that they are standing in a very large pool of gasoline as they attempt to light that fire.

DIA

If I was planning on winning, that is the only way I would look at it.

If your definition of winning is 'killing everything that moves', then yes, I would agree. War has has no ability to resolve disputes between a nation (israel) and a civilian population with a militant front (lebanon/hezbollah).

True, however they had every opportunity to avoid what is happening to them...If they want my sympathy for their losses, they should start fighting hezbollah to force them out and back to Syria where they might be a little more welcome.

Which would be great, but it is a possibility that shrinks every time an israeli bomb misses its mark.

EzraS: War has has no ability to resolve disputes between a nation (israel) and a civilian population with a militant front (lebanon/hezbollah).

Really? It seemed to work in WWII with the Nazis in Germany.

tgot

Cmon man, I try to be reasonable but you still respond to me like I'm some kneejerk idiot who sees the star of david and screams 'zionist pigs' at the top of my lungs.

In other words, yes I have seen a map like that. And yes, I think israel should have our support in this war. And yes, I understand the history that has led up to this war.

But as for the map, its kind of a non-issue as far as 'land' goes. The palestinians aren't complaining that they don't have enough land - they are complaining they don't have enough of the land which their families have lived on for years. Very crucial difference from the POV of a palestinian.

Yes it would be great if all the palestinians got flown to new lands in muslim countries, but i dont think we should waste our time talking about solutions that don't have a chance in hell of ever happening.

EzraS: "But as for the map, its kind of a non-issue as far as 'land' goes."

I disagree.


"Yes it would be great if all the palestinians got flown to new lands in muslim countries, ... that don't have a chance in hell of ever happening."

I agree.

untrustworthy

The nazis were a militant front of the german people?

EzraS: "The nazis were a militant front of the german people?"


*looks around, unsure*



... wha?!?!?

tgot

T'was regarding untrustworthy's post.

Clarificaton: War used to work because it was fought between governments using the population a a weapon. This is vastly different from fighting a militant population who have a working knowledge of guerilla warfare, modern communications technology, religious motivation, and RPGs.

EzraS: The nazis were a militant front of the german people?

See TGOT's response. Mine is the same.

Well ... I understand now.

The people of Iraq weren't responsible for Saddam's actions, because they didn't elect him.* But the only way to remove Saddam ( other than asking nicely, or writing a strongly worded letter, is to send in a military to take out the military loyal to the government, ... or whatever )

The German people 'kinda' elected the Nazis,* but as you say, if a popular uprising happens in a country, not all of the people in that contry is responsible for the uprising, when you can't tell the supporters and the non-supporters of the uprising, or insurgency, or whatever.

The part about war that sucks to high heaven, is you can't just target a military, tank to tank and soldier to soldier when there are civilians around. And the Arabs around Israel have this funy habbit of operating in an around their civilian population for the express purpose of making any action against them, have a high probability of killing innocents.

/is that what you meant??

untrustworthy

Ugh.

I said: "War has has no ability to resolve disputes between a nation (israel) and a civilian population with a militant front (lebanon/hezbollah)."

You said: "Really? It seemed to work in WWII with the Nazis in Germany."

I said: "The nazis were a militant front of the german people?"

What is there not to get? The ability of war to resolve WWII and its ability to resolve the lebanon/israel conflict are not equivalent.

EzraS: "War has has no ability to resolve disputes between a nation (israel) and a civilian population with a militant front (lebanon/hezbollah)."


*?*

Didn't they elect them into office?

A lot of people are pissed that Bush is opposing some "democratically elected" government in the middle east ... unless I am thinkning about some other middle east ...

/confused. Back to work. Gotta read this later tonight ..

tgot

is that what you meant??

Sort of. There are a number of things that have happened that makes it impossible for war to operate in the way it used to. Most obviously, war between powerful nations cannot occur due to nuclear weapons (or at least if it did, it would be awful short). We're left with wars between powerful nations and between small groups who live in and amongst civilian populations and yet due to technology, still have the ability to fight powerful nations. How exactly do you 'beat' that? Even if you occupy a terrorist group's home nation, they don't quit - they just have an easier time attacking you. You kill one and another pops up. Every mistake makes them look good and makes you look like the agressor.

Terrorism is a disease whose antidote does not lie in the barrel of a gun.

Didn't they elect them into office?

Well hezbollah is obviously more than just a political party. When we talk about hezbollah we are not talking about people who take their problems to lebanon's government - we are talking about the hezbollah that takes its orders from syria and stockpile missiles on the israeli border (which it would be doing regardless of whether or not it had political representation in the lebanese govt). That is the 'militant front' that I am talking about, and that is the militant front that can't be 'beaten' with overwhelming force.

We had a similar situation in vietnam, and we have a similar situation in Iraq. The old ways of war don't achieve the same things they used to, and it is becoming an awfully expensive lesson to learn.

EzraS: The ability of war to resolve WWII and its ability to resolve the lebanon/israel conflict are not equivalent.

You claimed this was because war has has no ability to resolve disputes between a nation and a civilian population with a militant front. I pointed out that the Nazis were a militant front of Germany and war ended their aggressive acts. Seemed pretty obvious to me.

untrustworthy

Well, then the problem was the term 'militant front' which I took to have a different meaning than the one you are using.

EzraS: Well, then the problem was the term 'militant front' which I took to have a different meaning than the one you are using.

Alright. How would you define 'militant front'?

untrustworthy

Well, the way I was using it was:

A group which has the support of the population it operates within to attain its ends through violent means. It may be involved in a legitimate government but does not need to be in order to function. More similar to a gang, mob, or terrorist organization than a legitimate government.

untrustworthy: How would you define 'militant front'?

i'll take this definition of "militant front" for $1000 alex:

/gotta love gis

.... what were we talking about again???

the_gospel_of_thomas's map

Sir, that is blasphemy. Ethiopia isn't Moslem.

Israel, just hang up the phone and do what you gotta do.

Haliburton needs contracts people! Would somebody PLEASE think about Haliburton?!?

Comrade438: Sir, that is blasphemy. Ethiopia isn't Moslem.

Yeah, my bad. I don't know what I was thinking.

Don't tell me you folks don't know about the two civilians kidnapped from Gaza by the Isrealis before the Isreali soldier was kidnapped? You surely know that Isreal has had plans drawn up for this fight since late last year, before Hamas won the elections?

No? OK, then, never mind.

Funny how one group is mad that another group of people are pissed that their land was "given away" to form the nation of Israel.

willywanka [TotalFark]

At least 600,000 Lebanese have fled their homes, according to the WHO -- with one estimate by Lebanon's finance minister putting the number at 750,000, nearly 20% of the population.

I didn't know the WHO was involved in this.

I want me some Lesbian strip.

Don't tell me you folks don't know about the two civilians kidnapped from Gaza by the Isrealis before the Isreali soldier was kidnapped? You surely know that Isreal has had plans drawn up for this fight since late last year, before Hamas won the elections?

....none of which changes the reasons or aims of the war for either side.


/main page? Time to go drink some beers, far away from this screen.

UNEF failed at this job in 67, what will make this peace-keeping force any different?

I didn't realize people still visited the Communist News Network website.

Condoleezza: Lebanon must get rid of Hezbollah, welcome 10,000 foreign troops and let Israel drive as far as 20 miles into their territory. Israel must... Actually, they're doing just fine

Hezbollah: Hey Condi, die in a fire!

Hez asking for a ceasefire is like me punching Chuck Norris in the face as many times as i can before he swings back and then calling "time out".
//After kidnapping two of his kids and killing eight more that is.

Police label anyone attacking Chuck Norris as a Code 45-11.... a suicide.


Chuck Norris needs a monkeywrench and a blowtorch to masturbate.

Chuck Norris can win a game of Connect Four in only three moves.

Chuck Norris once challenged Lance Armstrong in a "Who has more testicles?" contest. Chuck Norris won by 5.

Chuck Norris counted to infinity - twice

So there's only 2 Jews living in Afghanastan?

What do they do? Run a deli or something?

the_gospel_of_thomas

That map is BS. Ethiopia is neither Muslim or Arab.

iron81

Submitter has a good point. The plan that looks looks is shaping up to end this thing is a prisoner exchange and a bigger international peacekeeping force at the border (there already is a small UN peackeeping force there). What Condi and Israel don't understand is that:

1. They cannot defeat Hezbollah miltarily. If they were going to, it would have happened in the 25 years that Israel spent fighting in Lebanon.

They can drive them out of missile range, and destroy much of their army. Yeah, ultimately it'll take Lebanese and other forces to ensure they disarm and stay so, and this is what the negotiations are about.

What Israel should do is not allow anyone to return within missile range until a genuine, capable peacekeeping force is in place. No civilian population to blend into, Hezbollah infiltrators would be quite visible and therefore vulnerable.

2. The longer they wait to sign the cease fire, the stronger Hezbollah gets. They are like in the Sci-Fi shows when you zap the alien spaceship and they just feed off the power and get stronger.

Stated without proof or even plausible argument.

3. Lebanon is going to have to be the ones to get rid of Hezbollah, but they are not strong enough to do it. Its going to take a few years.

Probably, that's why an international force would be a part of it, but it's hard to tell for certain. Right now, the Lebanese gov't isn't even willing to try.

elchip: Why should anyone trust them?

Because Hezbollah has been relatively peaceful the last few years. There is a reason most of the news in the region has been coming out of gaza lately, because the Lebanese border has been relatively quiet. And if Israel could live with Hezbollah 3 weeks ago, they can do it now.

Um..They killed a bunch of Israeli soldiers on Israeli soil and kidnapped 2 others, that's what's different. This following Hamas' action of same, which suggests co-ordination on 2 fronts.

And Hezbollah has engaged in intermittant attacks even before this over the years even after Israel withdrew from Lebanon. Those attacks weren't as bad as this.

willywanka

The conflict has left more than 400 people dead on both sides of the Lebanese-Israeli border.

just in case this sounds, oh, I don't know, a little vague...

Where things stand.

In Israel: Hezbollah continued its barrage of missile attacks on northern Israel, firing more than 40 rockets and slightly wounding 13. Overall, the death toll stands at 37, with 17 people killed by Hezbollah rockets and 20 soldiers killed in the fighting.

Those figures aren't verified, they come from Hezbollah or sources sympathetic to same; we saw that the BBC admitted uncertainty, that some "civilian" houses were used for Hezbollah guerillas and arms.

Furthermore, the body count doesn't tell you who's right. In WWII, the US killed many, many more Axis people than vice versa. The US and European bombed the Serbs for months, killing many Serbs in the process, while the Serbs killed no one from the US and NATO.

Except of course when it's Israel defending itself from actual attack, the standards are different.

SwingingJohnson: So there's only 2 Jews living in Afghanastan? What do they do? Run a deli or something?

They sell snow cones.


--

Cheeses of Nazareth: That map is BS. Ethiopia is neither Muslim or Ara

Yeah, my bad. I don't know what I was thinking.

Cheeses of Nazareth

Actually it's not clear if the stat is referring to Ethiopia, Somalia, or Sudan.

Whatever the case, that doesn't excuse what happened in the other countries.

--h

This is all theatre. A pretext for invasion of Iran.

SwingingJohnson: So there's only 2 Jews living in Afghanastan?

They don't speak to each other. They attend separate synagogues.

The Jewish jokes write themselves.

Megain, now that's what I call "Going commando!"

/Fapaliscious!

Boloxor the Insipid: This is all theatre. A pretext for invasion of Iran.

Don't forget Syria.

/or Poland

SwingingJohnson made me guffaw.

Hey moops, that's hillarious! I thought it was a joke at 1st.

Well if Hezbollah could act in a civilized manner then this wouldn't be happening. Why can't they just petition the UN for a global Jewish genocide?

So it is wrong for Hezbollah to kill or kidnap soldiers, but ok for Isreal to kill civilians? Is this backwords world or what?
People biatch terrorists kill civilians so the one time they act like freedom fighters, the IDF acts like terrorists?

TGoT says "the Arabs around Israel have this funny habit of operating in an around their civilian population"....or another way of putting it is "the IDF have a funny habit of turning every city in a 1000 mile radius into a war zone".....and then crying foul that citizens are trying to use bunkers as concerte shields....so unfair

Besides. Ethiopia's Jewish population immigrated to Israel at their own behest, not under the duress of some government. Also, wasn't there far more than just twenty-some thousand in Ethiopia? I was under the assumption is was upwards of nearly ninety thousand.

And I would feel bad for them if they didn't openly allow a militant group to operate within their borders.

What do you think that the US would do if a drug catrel in Mexico was shooting rockets at San Diego, and the Mexican government didn't do anything to stop it?

If it wasn't for the U.S. they wouldn't exist. Let them sink or swim without our arms and our money.

We should have been sending them whatever they wanted.

/My tax dollars that went to Israel aren't wasted.

I really hate to say it, but I kind of agree with bush on this .

If they can get a truly international force together and act as a barrier between Isreal and some of these other countries I really think it could help. To be an international force, it would have to be proportionally made up of people from many many contries. Not 95% American.

From that point on when the Muslims scream about the brutality of the Jews, they would not really have a point, they would have to take it up with the whole world. If hard-line Muslims wanted to shell Israel, they would have to deal with the response of 30 nations, not just the retaliation and revenge of their long time enemies.

It would be like a teacher breaking up a couple of schoolkids fighting in the schoolyard. It doesn't matter who started it anymore, both sides have equally stupid reasons, this shiat needs to stop.

Eat More Possum: "When will the U.S. stop licking Israel's ass after it shiats? If it wasn't for the U.S. they wouldn't exist. Let them sink or swim without our arms and our money."


Yeah, I kinda didnt see this until now.

Very dissapointed. Sorry to say, not surprised.

Sounds like a plan Condi.

It certainly beats getting an immediate ceasefire with a terrorist group that is dedicated to destroying you.

studebaker hoch
Old and busted: Cold war between USA and USSR
Teh new hotness: Cold war between Isreal and Iran
--------------------------------------------------------------

this would be comparable had the USSR actually gave Cuba missiles that they lobbed into Florida by the thousands and Invaded our border and abducted and killed some US soldiers.

Eat More Possum: If it wasn't for the U.S. they wouldn't exist. Let them sink or swim without our arms and our money.

Why do ignorant people keep posting this in every thread just to get shot down? US military aid and massive foreign aid didn't start until *after* Israel's last major war. Dumbass.

eqtworld: From that point on when the Muslims scream about the brutality of the Jews, they would not really have a point, they would have to take it up with the whole world. If hard-line Muslims wanted to shell Israel, they would have to deal with the response of 30 nations, not just the retaliation and revenge of their long time enemies.

I agree, and I'd like to see it too. I think it would clarify things for the rest of the world real quick.

Going to have a few difficulties on that, what with Israel blowing up the U.N. observers and all.

They've made it clear that either the world does what Israel wants, or Israel is going to make Lebanon suffer for it.

Interesting map,

Did these guys all move to Israel?

Did they displace the palestinians that lived there, as a majority? Those displaced by the transfer policies? Those kept out by policies today regulating that spouses cannot move into Israel proper - even though out of the thousands who applied and moved, only 26 were detained and none were convicted of a clear crime?

People biatch terrorists kill civilians so the one time they act like freedom fighters, the IDF acts like terrorists?

Three weeks ago Israel didn't occupy Lebanon. When HB crossed the internationally recognized border, violating Israeli sovereignty and attacked soldiers on the Israeli side of the border they started their attack with a distraction. HB first fired mortars and rockets on Israeli towns, that is, population centers aka civilians. That's four strikes against Hezbollah being freedom fighters. Unless you are bringing your own definition of freedom fighter that's synonymous with asshat?

why do you all care so much, why is the Palestine problem such a hot topic (nothing to do with the largest lobby I'm sure). Ethiopia invaded Somalia today, not a peep from anyone.....

eqtworld: From that point on when the Muslims scream about the brutality of the Jews, they would not really have a point, they would have to take it up with the whole world. If hard-line Muslims wanted to shell Israel, they would have to deal with the response of 30 nations, not just the retaliation and revenge of their long time enemies.

You notice that it's the Lebanese yelling for UN intervention, and not the Israelis?
Hell, it was the Israelis that blew the UN guys up. Probably an accident though, like when we rocketed the Al Jazeera office in Gulf War One, or the Chinese embassy more recently.

Given that the King of Saudi Arabia seems to be threatening war if Israel doesn't agree to a peace plan, Condi had better work a little harder, and quick.

If Saudi Arabia gets sucked in ... oh bugger...

"Don't make me come up in here. I'll kick all y'all's asses!"

If we found out those scary Mexicans were lobbing rockets into SD, I guess we'd go and invade Iraq and kick they asses ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!

As long as Hezbollah insists on using innocent civilians for cover, the blood of those civilian deaths are on Hezbollah's hands.

It's really quite simple.

studebaker hoch

We sure wouldn't line up artillery and start shelling Tijuana, or send in fighter jets to blow the bridges, power and communications, or shoot at cars on the roads.

We'd slip in there, find the dicks doing it, and "make them go away".


You mean Israel's targeted killing, terrorist assassination policy that the UN condemns weekly? Or the US dropping a nuclear bomb on Japanese cities of little military value?

"If a man wants to be called Muhammed Ali, then I vill respect his vishes and call him Muhammed Ali!"

"His mamma named him Cassius, I'm gonna call him Cassius."

On that note, I think im going to take a break from these threads. I dont like how these arguments are going, and frankly, i dont like arguing for this side either.

peace

Also...anyone screaming about Israel and their heartless killing of civilians is playing right into Hezbollah's hands. That's exactly the reaction they were hoping to get when they put those civilians in this situation.

Congratulations. You've been duped by a group of terrorist dumbasses.

Why should israel do anything?? Israel isn't the *source* of the problem. The problem is hezbollah. If hezbollah would stop shooting, the war would be over tomorrow. This war is 100% hezbollah's fault. Every lebonese civilian that dies: hezbollah's fault.

israel did absolutely nothing wrong. hezbollah fired between 300 and 400 rockets into israel BEFORE the war began, before israel started shooting back. Now, suicide bombs are one thing. I mean, they're bad, but at least you can sleep at night. You're only really in danger when you go out. These rockets are totally different. Just stop and think about it for a minute. Firing rockets, across a border into another country. If there was a terrorist group in mexico firing rockets across the US border into your town, even the most sissy liberal farker would be screaming glass parking lot. rockets change everything.

Don't know about anyone else, but I have heard this war is really about water. From what I understand, the Litani river is southern Lebanon would increas Israels water supply by 40%

At the start of her meeting with Olmert, Rice said that it's time for "a new Middle East."

"It is time to say to those who do not want a different kind of Middle East that we will prevail, they will not," Rice said.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why this woman will be our next President.

I think I will side with the Jews in this one. They to tend to be better friends of America. Middle Eastern Islamic folks tend to be a little too combustible for my tastes.

/loves Condi in black leather high heeled boots
//dominatrix-of-state!

beoswulf: Three weeks ago Israel didn't occupy Lebanon.

Yes they did - see Shaba Farms.

studebaker hoch

GBU-43 Massive Ordnance Air Blast. I'm serious.

Poor mistreated Hezbollah.

/Waiting for the pity party to start

Yes they did - see Shaba Farms.

Shaba Farms Yogurt rox!

Saudi? go to war? they'd have to recruit half of India to do the fighting for them....the Saudis have openly stated that they have no problems with Israel's attack on the Lebanon, why? coz the Hizbulah are shi'ite and Iranian-Syrian backed (both Shia led govts, though Syruia is predominant sunni - go figure) and the Saudis (weird extreme form of sunni foetus-eating sect) hate 'em......it's why Iraq went to war with Iran.....it's why Hamas (sunni) dont support Hizbullah, it's why the saudis support alqaeda but not the Hizbullah...it's pretty simple to follow, those in sand countries hate those in green countries. Stick to this construct in the M East and it will all make sense

Kanemano --
Even the UN claims that Shebaa Farms is Syrian territory, not Lebanese.

Occupying a 20 mile wide strip of southern Lebanon isn't going to stop rocket attacks. Guerillas will sneak in with them on their backs, fire them, and sneak out.

And the fact that Israel just bombed a clearly marked UN building just shows that they really are incompetant or have no qualms of killing innocents. Or are the apologists going to come out and say in the past Hezbollah used mind-control to turn UN members into suicide bombers so it's justified?

Party Boy: Interesting map,

Did these guys all move to Israel?

No - many went to the US or Europe.

Did they displace the palestinians that lived there, as a majority? Those displaced by the transfer policies?

No - out of ~700,000 Palestinians to leave Israel between Dec 1947 and Nov 1948, only between 50,000 and 100,000 were "displaced", 50,000 of them from Lod/Ramle in response to repeated attacks on the airport and supply lines.

Those kept out by policies today regulating that spouses cannot move into Israel proper - even though out of the thousands who applied and moved, only 26 were detained and none were convicted of a clear crime?

Err, what? In English?
Israel has a current policy that spouses do not gain automatic citizenship *if they are known terrorists or refuse to take an oath of loyalty*.

Most people don't understand that Israel could easily purchase comparable arms to the ones they get from the US from nations like France, England, Germany or even Russia.

All of those nations make high tech weaponry that is not quite as good as US weapons, but good enough to do the job that they are doing now with US weapons.

Take the F16 or F15 for example. France makes the Dessault Rafaele or Israel could get the Eurofighter 2000 or SU 27's from Russia.

Helicopter Gunships? Kamov KA-50 is a great competitor to the Apache as well as the Eurocopter.

Tanks and APC's? The Israelis make thier own.

Almost all weapons that Isreal use that are American made could be replaced with a counterpart from another country.

If you question weather the other countries would sell Israel the weapons, just remember it was the French that helped provide Isreal with tech for deveolping their nuclear weapons program. If you doubt that, you can start researching Wiki and then dig through liks provided from there.

Israel buys US made weapons because the US is thier biggest ally and want to give US companies the business.

They don't need the best technology to fight against groups like Hezzbolah or Hamas. So, the "If the US stopped selling Israel arms, we wouldn't have this violence" argument is bullshiat.

The only way you could stop Israel from having the advantage in weaponry, is to have them stop being a civilized country so they would have a shiat economy like thier neighbors and not be able to afford a decent military

If someone can come up with a counter argument, I'll be more than willing to retract my statement.

even the UN claims the Golan heights is Syrian territory, not Israeli

beoswulf: Three weeks ago Israel didn't occupy Lebanon.

Kanemano: Yes they did - see Shaba Farms.

Conveniently, the Farms were never part of Lebanon... (they're in Syria)

moops

Thanks for the link- that was freakin' hilarious.

And the fact that Israel just bombed a clearly marked UN building just shows that they really are incompetant (sic)

The UN has been complicit in the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers.

willywanka: 11 of the 384 dead are confirmed Hezbollah militants.
the_gospel_of_thomas: .... according to Hezbollah.

Also note that the remainder have not been confirmed civilians. Hezbollah doesn't care to hide behind civilians because they use their corpses to make a propaganda offensive, nor do they mind mixing terrorist corpses among the dead to inflate those numbers.

Nic Robertson from CNN even admitted that one tour of the aftermath of Israeli attacks came under the very strict guidance a Hezbollah press official who told the cameraman, "Just look. Shoot. Look at this building. Is it a military base? Is it a military base, or just civilians living in this building?" Robertson even commented at the time, "As we run past the rubble, we see much that points to civilian life, no evidence apparent of military equipment." (Newsbusters has the source video.) What Robertson waited until later to say was:

They had control of the situation. They designated the places that we went to, and we certainly didn't have time to go into the houses or lift up the rubble to see what was underneath.

So what we did see today in a similar excursion, and Hezbollah is now running a number of these every day, taking journalists into this area. They realize that this is a good way for them to get their message out, taking journalists on a regular basis. This particular press officer came across his press office today, what was left of it in the rubble. He pointed out business cards that he said were from his office that was a Hezbollah press office in that area.

So there's no doubt that the bombs there are hitting Hezbollah facilities. But from what we can see, there appear to be a lot of civilian damage, a lot of civilian properties. But again, as you say, we didn't have enough time to go in, root through those houses, see if perhaps there was somebody there who was, you know, taxi driver there...

So contrary to the picture Hezbollah was trying to paint, the civilian damage doesn't strictly indicate murderous intent on the part of the Israeli military so much as it might indicate the unfortunate aftermath of attacking Hezbollah offices and positions mixed among the civilian population. And Hezbollah is well aware of this.

Hat tip to Newsbusters for the original source video and further analysis of the follow-up.

GBU-43 Massive Ordnance Air Blast. I'm serious.

studebaker hoch: Oh man say it ain't so. Anyone have a link for us giving them the MOAB?

No, it doesn't seem like the sort of thing we'd sell them. That plume is consistent with any number of high explosives.

soy_bomb: The UN has been complicit in the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers.

So you're saying the bombing was intentional?

Israel is acting like John Travolta (and halle Berry) in Swordfish. And a little like Jennifer Lopez in Enough.

But is it self defence?

soy_bomb: The UN has been complicit in the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers.

blindpreacher: So you're saying the bombing was intentional?

About as intentional as our bombing the French embassy in Libya?

Mouser: And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why this woman will be our next President.


If I were american, I would vote for Condi. Long before I voted for Hillary, Cheney or Jeb.

2006-07-25 05:07:46 PM elchip [TotalFark]

Wasn't Hebollah formed to get Israel out of Lebanon?

Didn't Israel withdraw from Lebanon in 2000?

And Hebollah continued to exist, get involved in politics, control the southern part of the country, and do nasty things to Israel?

Why should anyone trust them?

Because Israel's in Lebanon right now?

I don't care about the innocent civilians at all. Its their own damned fault for being borned in those stupid countries.

Sloth_DC

Correct. I'm assuming it could be one of the bunker-busters we gave'em. That post was, predictably, just a troll. I'm guessing it could be one of the GBU-28s we confirmed as to having sold them. 5,000 pounds of unpowered, hard target laser guided weapon in one of them.

who's hiding behind civilians?? check the bbc site for the answer....be wary, it is a blatantly anti-semitic source

Comrade 438 I've jizzed my pants, please repeat in a husky tone

Secret Master of All Flatulence: /My tax dollars that went to Israel aren't wasted.

From my point of view they have been. Lets take a look at the situation from a pragmatic outlook. What have we really gotten out of our relationship with Israel? Nothing. Except some cool guns, I like Uzis and Jerichos, but I'd rather have cheaper oil and less threat from terrorists, which would have been what happened had we financed the Arabs against Israel instead of the other way around. Hell had we pandered to the Arabs instead of the Israelis. the US would probably be a lot better off in general.

Of course that would mean we supported genocide for the sake of acquiring natural resources, but this isn't a study into the ethics of the hypothetical, only the utilitarian effects.

Sloth_DC: Why do ignorant people keep posting this in every thread just to get shot down? US military aid and massive foreign aid didn't start until *after* Israel's last major war.

Their last major war was nearly a disaster. They won in the end, but it was costly. At the rate Syria and Egypt were re-arming, Israel would have been in trouble without our support. American aid to Israel is one of the reasons Egypt and Jordan signed actual treaties with their former enemies. Besides, if they really didn't need it, why waste so much money on them? It goes back to the question of wasted tax dollars. I think we are flushing them down the toilet anyway, but if our help were useless, well, even the mouth-breathers in Congress would see through the bullshiat.

the_gospel_of_thomas: They could help end this conflict by the end of this year by mailing them all airline tickets to all of the Palestineans and leaving Israel the fark alone.

It would probably be easier for us to offer airline tickets to everyone living in Israel. We can give them the Yukon, or Montana, or the Indian reservations after we kick them out and throw them in the sea.

Devil Slide Wolf

Sure thing.

I just noticed the repetitiveness of my prior post, though. It could be... I'm assuming it could be... I'm guessing it could be...

Hezbollah wanted a war with Israel. Well, they got their wish and now they say they are "shocked" at the Israeli response? Hezbollah are a bunch of ass-clown militants - shoot them all.

Maybe the mohametans should give lebanon to the Israelis in exchange for a cease-fire...

I mean... have THEY ever tried appeasement?

josephstalin: At the rate Syria and Egypt were re-arming, Israel would have been in trouble without our support. American aid to Israel is one of the reasons Egypt and Jordan signed actual treaties with their former enemies.

Well, it helped a *lot* that Israel trapped the Egyptian army, and we talked them into not destroying it.

Besides, if they really didn't need it, why waste so much money on them?

Seriously? We flipped Egypt from the Soviet sphere. We started sending them lots of aid to stay friendly to us and stop attacking Israel. At the same time, we sent a lot of money to Israel to thank them for helping us flip Egypt and as a bribe to show more restraint in the future.

But, but... Israel can NEVER do any wrong.
How dare anyone question them.
You must all be anti semites!

They are a religion of Peace.
(yeah right.)

"It would probably be easier for us to offer airline tickets to everyone living in Israel. We can give them the Yukon, or Montana, or the Indian reservations after we kick them out and throw them in the sea."


I read in a neo-conservative blog (was it call P.R.I.R.?)that if anti-semitism continues to rise in America (as it appears to be doing), the next destination for the diaspora will be China. Is that true?

Nice website you got there Nougat. Did you get your copy The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and The Turner Diaries autographed?

2006-07-25 07:02:31 PM the_gospel_of_thomas


Ezras have you ever seen a graphic like this before?

[big-ass map]


If you look close enough at the map, you'll see why the Sephardim sometimes hate the Ashkenazis.

But, but... Israel can NEVER do any wrong.
How dare anyone question them.
You must all be anti semites!

They are a religion of Peace.
(yeah right.)

You got it wrong because Hizbollah belongs to the religion of peace. So therfore Hizbollah can NEVER do any wrong.

"If the other Arab countries really cared about the Palestineans, then maybe they might want to invite them into their homes,"

I invite you to go to Wikipedia and lookup

Black September in Jordan

And see why this will NEVER happen.

Meh.. She's getting fat, just like Bush.

/Republicans are fat and smell like food.

There are so many apologists for Hezbollah in this thread, like Iron81. You guys seem to think you have the middle east figured out, and Israel is the bad guy.

I think we are seeing the genesis of a far-left neo-liberalism, where the fundamental tenet is that the U.S. and her allies must be wrong, and all philosophies and arguments derive from that.

Sort of like Hugo Chavez going to Belarus and Iran to hang out with his new-found friends, being completely defined by his hatred of America and democratic institutions, these guys come up with any ridiculous argument that protrays our interests in a bad light, because that is their mindset.

Get this part straight: countries like Israel believe in what they are doing. They don't care if you think they will fail in Lebanon. They are there because Hezbollah attacked Israel. If Hezbollah does it next week, next month, or next year, Israel will be back in Lebanon with overwhelming force . By pretending that Hezbollah did nothing wrong and it's all Israel's fault, you just make yourselves look like asses. By pretending, as submitter did, that Israel is in the wrong here, you just show your ignorance of what Hezbollah has done. Nobody cares who joins Hezbollah, they only care about the casualties on both sides. If someone joins HEzbollah they deserve to die for their cause, uinfortunately they are bent on getting civilians killed as well.

GoodasGold
I read in a neo-conservative blog (was it call P.R.I.R.?)that if anti-semitism continues to rise in America (as it appears to be doing), the next destination for the diaspora will be China. Is that true?

Hell if I know what you're talking about, but maybe it was a joke about Jews liking Chinese food?

soy_bomb: Nice website you got there Nougat. Did you get your copy The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and The Turner Diaries autographed?


Holy crap!

Please, someone tell me that thing is a spoof.

Why don't everyone stop arguing who was occupying what and when. Stop complaining about the consequences of pissing someone off, especially when that "someone" has a lot of guns.

Let's not forget that none of this would have happened if those soldiers weren't kidnapped.

You know what we call a person that goes and messes with someone stronger than them, and then goes ahead and complains when his country is turned to liquid shiat as a result of said messing? A farking pussy. Stop complainig already.

the_gospel_of_thomas:

They could also all die in a fire. ( That's what the arabs want, it would seem. )



/Where are we going?
//And what's with the handbasket?

studebaker hoch: Civilized people do not act as Israel is now acting.

Yeah - and we *totally* overreacted to Pearl Harbor.

So, what's *your* proposal for how to respond to a foreign invader who attacks you on your soil?

Beruit.We're talking about a city that pounded itself in the ground in the 80's with civil wars.Don't expect the country to do anything rational when they can't even get along with themselves.

I think Hezbollah should stop hiding behind women and children.

Chicken shiat terrorists.

Here is my message to both Israel and all of the Islamic militants.

I can understand your anger and frusteration with the situation. I can understand that you feel the need to take action. However, (to take a line from American History X) Has anything you have done made your life better?

Please, someone tell me that thing is a spoof.

No that is the real deal. Nougat is a typical anti-Zionist, i.e., a closeted, virulent anti-semite.

soy_bomb: Nice website you got there Nougat. Did you get your copy The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and The Turner Diaries autographed?



*clicks on the site link*
...
...




Cdn_Nrrd: Holy crap! Please, someone tell me that thing is a spoof.

Yeah, what he said.

So, what's *your* proposal for how to respond to a foreign invader who attacks you on your soil?

I bet it wouldn't look like this.

/where's the voting option when you need it

Madam SECSTATE Rice, worth giving it a shot & maybe the children on both sides can sleep safely in their beds tonight. Gotta admire you for even trying. Congrats Ma'am. If this works, we've got this little tallyban problem over here we would like you to take a look at. Oh ah, "Spankman" & "Buzzy" want to ask you if you could wear those boner inducing high black boots like you wore that night in Germany. When you visit the Pope in Rome send us some more pictures. Won't be as good as in person but....well we really think they looked very nice on you. And, we promise we won't make noises while you play the piano for us.

Regards,
Your Navy horndogs [with greatest respect]

And the average Farker disagrees with her? What a shock!

Most Farkers = Nazis.

Prove me wrong.

Agree with headline, next story please.

Since when is there a rule in war that your response to an attack must be equal to the attack against you?

Wow......the sand peoples got laid by a black woman.......

The government of Lebannon has not formally declared war on Israel. They don't even *like* Hezbollah.

Then kick Hezbollah to the curb. If you can't get rid them in your *own* country, you really can't call yourself a government or expect anyone to respect your sovereignty.

studebaker hoch ere's what I'd do. I'd watch the area, and everytime they shoot a rocket, bomb that site. They'd soon learn that everytime they shoot one of those crappy-ass things, they get a bomb back in return. And I'd just keep that up. You fire, here it comes.

You're retarded. Honestly, israeli has been trying that with palestinians, bombing the fields that they launch their kassams from. It doesnt work, because they launch the missile(s) and move right away.

studebaker hoch But in that case, you STILL don't go around blowing up innocent people by the carload just because you're really really angry.

You really think thats what israel is doing? 100 bombs a day and only 400 people killed? You think they are AIMING for civilians? They are doing their best to keep collateral damage down, but when it comes to whether israeli or lebanese lives are more important, israel knows its answer.

Todays Tote board:

Israel:

Civilians:
18 killed[7]
418 injured, Tens of thousands displaced[8]
Soldiers:
24 killed[9][10][11][12]
68 wounded[12]

Hezbollah:
Militants:
27 confirmed by Hezbollah[4]
IDF claims 100+ killed.

Lebanon
Civilians
360 killed[13]
1100 injured
800,000 displaced[14]
Soldiers:
22 killed
63 wounded

Sources at wiki.
Have a nice day

studebaker hoch: It may very well be that Israel doesn't have a good move.

But in that case, you STILL don't go around blowing up innocent people by the carload just because you're really really angry.

Someone punches you in a crowd, and you don't know who did it, do you turn to the general area and start fighting your best guess as to who it was? Yeesh.


I pretty much agree with your sceptical view, but as for your last analogy: 1)Do you get sucker-punched a lot in crowds? and 2.)Hell yes!...but I just lose some teeth and nobody gets kilt.

Israel is not going to get away with this forever. There are plenty of people willing to stand up and force the u.s. government to stop the nazi israelis. The boiling point is being reached.

JPenman Israel is not going to get away with this forever. There are plenty of people willing to stand up and force the u.s. government to stop the nazi israelis. The boiling point is being reached.

You're wrong. Israel isnt even using a significant percentage of its combat capable military. Anyone who decides they can brave israel and the US is just going to start WWIII

seventypercent: 2006-07-25 10:12:23 PM aXvXiA

And the average Farker disagrees with her? What a shock!

Most Farkers = Nazis.

You're absolutely correct, provided that your definition of "Nazi" is "anybody who has at any time harbored doubts that Israel is doing anything but the Glorious Work of the Lord God Almighty".


It's them liberal, jew-hating nazis...the worst kind!

aXvXiA's parents should demand a full refund of any money spent on his/her edumacation.

anyone missing the fact taht Hezbollah was democratically elected? and now it seems the media are treating them as a differant ethnic group? instead of a political party?

Kimball_Kinnison: anyone missing the fact taht Hezbollah was democratically elected? and now it seems the media are treating them as a differant ethnic group? instead of a political party?

*cough*Hamas!*cough*

...and unless Israel wants to stand by and watch this same farce in replay ("arabs negotiate, arabs are rewarded, arabs murder, arabs lie": repeat continuously for 60 years), a few minor changes in policy will be in order as soon as the current emergency is over.
1. learn to do menial work yourself (lesson for us as well).
2. new act of parliament: only Jews are citizens.
3. one question, one statement: "Are you an arab?" "Get out". All arabs out: citizens, property owners, taxpayers, good, bad, legal, illegal, men women, children, clergy, pets, who really cares.
4. no "guest workers", maids, day laborers, let them find work at home.
5. no arab tourists, visitors, nothing.
6. seal the borders (lesson for us as well), post warning signs in English and Hebrew only "Trespass beyond this point is death", shoot on sight.
7. tell Condi "if you can't keep these monkeys on a leash, the first target for a multiple nuclear strike is the Saudi family".
What have they got to do with it?
Who cares?
Will it stop the violence?
Let's find out.

studebaker hoch Of course! That's what will happen...at first. That kind of fighting is a war of attrition. Each time they launch, they take a risk. Israel should be right there with the answer. Eventually someone's going to get popped. You think the Katyushas are innaccurate, Qassams are homemade junk, orders of magnitude worse.

You are again wrong. Its not working. The innefectual response actually makes them more brazen. Very few return bombardments actually hit the team. The only time they get caught is when a UAV spots them on the way to the task, and the shelling occurs before rocket launch.

As far as quality of their missiles, who cares? If someone is trying to kill me with a gun or with a bow and arrow, it can still kill me and theres no reason to suffer it.

/You know, there are also anti-artillery defenses coming on line. Giant LASERS and such, no really. Let Israel be the beta site for them?

My understanding was that the THEL project was shelved.

studebaker hoch: The government of Lebannon has not formally declared war on Israel.

Nor had Japan formally declared war on the US before Pearl Harbor.

They don't even *like* Hezbollah.

They have a funny way of showing it, making them part of the ruling coalition and legitimizing them in the face of UNSCR 1559.

Here's what I'd do. I'd watch the area, and everytime they shoot a rocket, bomb that site.

In case you haven't noticed, that's what they've been doing - there have been an awful lot of shots coming out Lebanon lately.

Kimball_Kinnison anyone missing the fact taht Hezbollah was democratically elected? and now it seems the media are treating them as a differant ethnic group? instead of a political party?

Dude, you're confusing Hesbollah and Hamas. Hamas is the political leadership of palestinians, who happen to be terrorists. Hesbollah is a terrorist/politcal group funded by iran and syria, made in lebanon, and attacking israel.

Hezboll-waaaahhhhhh-wahhhhhh-wahhhhhh..... stop the terrorism against us.......

/Ironic

studebaker hoch: Hell no! Because you're likely to start a whole new fight with someone who now justifiably thinks you're a dick.

I am a dick, so it's all good.

The situation is best summed up as follows:

If Hezboolah and Hamas were completely disarmed, a fully Armed Isreal would let them be....no war.

If Isreal was fully disarmed, a fully armed Hezboolah,Hamas & Syria would kill all the Jews in Israel.

Who are the savages?

"(That's ok as you're probably pegged for the journey and may soon enjoy it first hand!)"

I am not sure what you are saying. Are gentiles going to be kicked out of the US by JEws?
I dont understand: "fair tax" lunatic nemesi"?
Is that some esotetic Jewish thing that gentiles can't understand?

Kimball_Kinnison: anyone missing the fact taht Hezbollah was democratically elected? and now it seems the media are treating them as a differant ethnic group? instead of a political party?

The Hezbollah members of parliment are elected. The Hez itself is not. They are a resistance group that has sorta taken control over part of a nation, and done a fair to middling job of it. And they are probably sort of ethnic in that there are a whole lot of palistinian refugee types from a generation ago in the initial Hez.

PappaSon: The situation is best summed up as follows:

If Hezboolah and Hamas were completely disarmed, a fully Armed Isreal would let them be....no war. some other organizations would arise to take their place, since the it doesn't solve the underlying problem.

Injected reality into that for you.

Organized religion sucks. Organized religion sucks. Organized religion sucks.

I don't discriminate. I dislike all religions equally. I'm NOT really fond of the "us vs. them" mentality. If you're truly spiritual, keep it to yourself.

That being said, someone shoots missles into your country; kill them. Doesn't matter which god they pray to. Problem solved, go home now.

studebaker hoch: /OK which one of you farkers is port-scanning my ass right now? Jeez, I'm under attack.

Randomly pick someone and punch them.

/obvious

YAWWNNN....
This is all getting boring. Can't we find some way to escalate the conflict? Perhaps a few suicide bombers in Jeruselam. Or a few more Mosques bombed... Damn, IDF has done their part by hitting the UN. I think it's time for H to step up.

Common folks, lets get it on. The Tour De France is over, and your war can't hold my attention much longer...

If things don't pick up again soon I might have to go back to "The View".

2006-07-25 10:29:41 PMPlayinodds

Dude, you're confusing Hesbollah and Hamas. Hamas is the political leadership of palestinians, who happen to be terrorists. Hesbollah is a terrorist/politcal group funded by iran and syria, made in lebanon, and attacking israel.

The organization has been involved in activities like building schools, clinics, and hospitals. In 1992, it participated in Lebanese elections for the first time, winning 12 out of 128 seats in parliament. It won 10 seats in 1996, and 8 in 2000. In the general election of 2005, it won 14 seats nationwide, and an Amal-Hezbollah alliance won all 23 seats in Southern Lebanon.

No confusion but your own. Hezbollah members have been elected, thus part of the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government of Lebanon. Or is this one of those Democracies we choose not to reconize becasue the have anti-american veiwpoints and aid terrorists? Like Pakistan.

make up your mind

PappaSon: If Hezboolah and Hamas were completely disarmed, a fully Armed Isreal would let them be....no war.


I don't accept your premise. There's an agenda at work to sieze all of the land in historical Israel.

Work would continue to settle on the Palestinians lands and the move them into smaller and smaller areas until an excuse can be found to remove them entirely.

Beer Nutz

Since when is there a rule in war that your response to an attack must be equal to the attack against you?

The rule we (usually) follow and one I think is reasonable is proportionality. That does not mean the level of force must equal the level used against you. What it does mean is that you try to be reasonable. Example: a sniper starts shooting at you from a building and has hit a couple of your guys. Reasonable: shoot a a SMAW rocket or tank round into the part of the building he is in. Not reasonable: level the entire block.

Playinodds

uhmm, yeah. I'm aware of all that. Let me clarify; If the U.S. continues to pay for the evils of israel in money and weapons it will then pay for the evils of israel with loss of life and infrastructure, americans will attack american targets. just as the german people should have done to nazi targets during ww2.

/this is not a threat

EdBear: I don't accept your premise. There's an agenda at work to sieze all of the land in historical Israel.

Work would continue to settle on the Palestinians lands and the move them into smaller and smaller areas until an excuse can be found to remove them entirely.

Yes, that's why they withdrew from Gaza and were in the process of withrawing from West Bank (and never even tried to occupy Jordan). I can see now that was all part of their cunning plan...

Beauf: What it does mean is that you try to be reasonable.

Had this been a new problem I might agree with you. Israel has been putting up with this shiat for far too long.

Beauf: The rule we (usually) follow and one I think is reasonable is proportionality.

??? The one and only time we ever followed that rule was Vietnam. We lost. We've never since (or before) followed the principle of proportionality - it's a good way to lose wars.

Bombs and Politics

BEIRUT - Why, oh, why do people with access to really big bombs continue to think they can change people's loyalties by dropping those big bombs on their homes and families?

Israel's strategy in Lebanon is pretty clear now: Make the pain of "supporting" or "harboring" Hizbullah so great that the Lebanese will deal with the group. That was also the idea behind the attack on Gaza and Hamas as well as the so-called Bush Doctrine - the U.S. will make no distinction between the terrorists and those who harbor them. It's also the hot air for the trial balloon often floated in D.C. regarding regime change in Iran: Bomb the mullahs and watch the pro-American youth embrace the Pax Americana!

Except... it almost never works. I mean, George Bush was considered barely qualified to make coffee at the White House in August 2001. (Remember that?) And then, boom, 9/11 hit and he's suddenly the best wartime leader since Churchill. Was there a rethinking of American policy on the part of the masses and a call for changing those policies? Or even, dare I say it, removing the Bush Administration from office because the consequences of having a nincompoop in office had grown too painful? Hell, no! Americans rallied around the flag and the leader. In fact, the only incident that I can think of that involved bombs leading to the victims blaming their leaders and punishing them was ... Madrid.

So why do Washington and Tel Aviv think Arabs would react any different? (Maybe a bit of cultural chauvinism?) Did the Iraqis turn on Saddam Hussein through 13 years of sanctions? No. Did the Palestinians turn on Fatah after the start of the 2001 intifada? That's a negative. The Gazans this year? Nope. Will the Lebanese turn on Hizbullah? Not likely, and certainly not in the short term.

Another reason the "bomb 'em and they'll love us" strategy won't work here is that Hizbullah is not the PLO. An historical digression, if you'll allow me: Israel invaded Lebanon in 1978 and 1982 in two attempts to dislodge the PLO from Lebanon, where it was using the country launch attacks on the Jewish state. The Palestinians had developed a state-within-a-state in the south, which was often called "Fatah-land." (Sound familiar?) In 1983, Israel finally pushed the PLO out and Yasser Arafat and his followers fled to Tunisia. Still, the Lebanese war dragged on for another seven years as various militias - some supported by Israel, others by Syria and Iran - before finally ending in 1990 from exhaustion. Lebanon was shattered and Israel ended up occupying parts of the country for 22 years, spawning Hizbullah.

This is important. Hizbullah was not started by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. It was organized by them out of the disparate Shi'ite groups that popped up to resist the Israeli occupation. Iran helped merge them together, but they're a Lebanese creation.

This means Hizbullah is an indigenous group, not a foreign body like the PLO was. Saying that Lebanon "harbored" Hizbullah is like saying the United States "harbors" white supremacists or anti-government militias. You probably hate them and despise their goals, but you can't they're alien parasites on American society. Like Hizbullah in Lebanon, they're an integral if extreme part of the political and social fabric. Ending of expelling Hizbullah is akin to amputation rather than lancing a boil.

I've been in love with Lebanon since 2004 when I took a flat here and began immersing myself in the place whenever I could take a break from Iraq. In March, I settled here for the foreseeable future. I have a wide variety of friends, not just upper-crust Christians, and while I'm not a polling company, I think I have a decent grasp of the zeitgeist here.

Before this damn war, Hizbullah was losing support. It wasn't draining, but it was ebbing. The political process was stuttering along, but it was moving. Many people here hated Hizbullah... Many people also loved it. The society was split but there was a consensus the problem had to be settled judiciously and politically because no one wanted another civil war.

When the first Israeli bombs fell, some Shi'ites even blamed Hizbullah. I met a guy in the southern suburbs last Saturday, just four days after things started. He's a Shi'ite from Nabatiyeh in the south and hated Hizbullah. He thought they'd screwed up big-time. These days, when I talk to him, he says he hopes Hizbullah rips the Israelis apart. Another friend of mine, one of those upper-crust Christians, told me last night that as much as he hates Hizbullah, he hates the Israelis even more now.

The Lebanese are closing ranks in the face of an external threat, just like people all over the world do - with the exception of Spain, I guess. They're no different from anyone else, and the same thing happened in the initial days of Iraq. The same pattern would play out in Iran, too, if this war gets that far east. The West has no monopoly on unity, patriotism and nationalism.

That said, unity rarely lasts. In the case of America, it led to a polarized public where the public debate seems to involve screaming "traitor!" when someone votes for a Democrat for the school board.

In the Middle East, things rarely stay at that level. Once that unity breaks, we're left with civil war. (See, Lebanon, 1975-1990 and Iraq, 2003-present.) And in civil wars, lots of people die and the situation that needed to be fixed is usually worse. (Does anyone think Iraq is a more stabilizing force than it was?)

Which is why it's important to end these things before they start.

airzonk: If someone can come up with a counter argument

u pretty much nailed it . . . . even though you used weather (rain) versus whether (choice).

Farkers are soooo simple minded, it is soo amusing to read the "logic" and spiracy theories and shiat "I hate Bush" and other ignorant crap.

God I'm glad none of these people are in positions of responsibility.

It is kind of funny people thinking Israel should sink and the USA shouldn't support them.

Should Israel be where it is? Well, that's open to debate. In many ways I wish it never turned out the way it did. But do you know what? It did! Israel is there, and they have a homeland and they want to stay.

The fact is, if those Arab nations would just leave them alone, none of this crap would happen. Pure and simple. Does Israel do a few things that seem extreme? Yes, I think so, and I feel bad for all those poor people in Lebanon.

But I have to restate, if they would just leave them alone and be happy with what they have and spend all that money they use for weapons on their economy and people, none of this would be happening!

Israel is the reactor. They have been getting punched in the nose constantly and so they fight back. This will happen until they stop getting punched.

Who here wouldn't protect their family if their neighbor hated them and wanted them gone, and used force to try and take you out? I know I would bring out my baseball bat and whip some ass if my life was on the line like that. Either that or die trying.

Most ignorant headline ever?

Israel was to witdraw from Lebanon in exchange for Hezbollah being disarmed by the Lebanese government. Israel held their part of the deal. The Lebanese government didn't.

Fark you ignorant twats.

soy_bomb

Then kick Hezbollah to the curb. If you can't get rid them in your *own* country, you really can't call yourself a government or expect anyone to respect your sovereignty.

Yeah, cause we have done such a good job of kicking the Bloods, Crips, Suernos, White Power gangs, etc... to the curb and we have enormous amounts of resources and a much more stable government. In reality, terrorists are extremely violent gangs even if their goals are different than our street gangs. Getting rid of them is not that simple under the best of circumstances.

To make things even more complicated, they do tons of cheritable acts for destitute Muslims which gives them legitimacy and support among the people who, as a result activly or passively support them.

Sloth_DC: Yes, that's why they withdrew from Gaza and were in the process of withrawing from West Bank (and never even tried to occupy Jordan). I can see now that was all part of their cunning plan...



A few strategic withdrawls (heavily covered by the media) isn't the same as an actual withdrawl.

2006-07-25 10:46:30 PM EdBear


PappaSon: If Hezboolah and Hamas were completely disarmed, a fully Armed Isreal would let them be....no war.


I don't accept your premise. There's an agenda at work to sieze all of the land in historical Israel.

Work would continue to settle on the Palestinians lands and the move them into smaller and smaller areas until an excuse can be found to remove them entirely.

The recent historic evidence would refute your argument. When Israel pulled out of 'Palestinian' territory the PLO/et al responded by regrouping and attacking Israel. This should make it clear that regardless of what Israel does the enemies of Israel will never accept the existence of Israel.

/btw, did you know I go to sleep at night and leave the lights on?

I don't think there's any question that what Israel is doing in Lebanon is only strengthening and legitimizing Hezbollah in the eyes of not only the Lebanese people, but many moderate arabs throughout the world; this invasion has done nothing but brighten their long-term prospects of popular support.

The question is whether or not Israel knew that going in or has yet to realize it.

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't have reacted to the rocket attacks and such, just that if their goal is to weaken Hezbollah, they've gone about it in the worst way possible.

Go Israel, kick some arab ass.

Anyone group who hates jews because they are jewish deserve what's comin' to them.

There's one interesting fact about the kidnapped isreali soldiers - they were captured in Lebanon.

Of course she won't say anything about the innocent Lebanese people being slaughtered by the Israelis. She's representing the country that slaughters innocent Iraqis.

i never speak in these threads...but

STOP BLINDLY SUPPORTING ISRAEL AND THIS shiat MIGHT ACTUALLY END!!!!

EdBear: A few strategic withdrawls (heavily covered by the media) isn't the same as an actual withdrawl.

Geeze, do you even *try* to keep up with the news? THEY WITHDREW FROM GAZA, in accordance with the Taba proposal, and were in the process of withdrawing from the West Bank.

xCh: There's one interesting fact about the kidnapped isreali soldiers - they were captured in Lebanon.

Evidence? Mind you, it has to be really strong evidence to successfully disagree with every major newspaper in the world.

(Is it justified to kill someone because they live with their father, who happens to be a hezbollah militant? Because they have dinner and help to shelter their cousins and uncles who are in hezbollah? If any of us were in their situation, would we do any different?)

Possibly not. On the other hand, the militants should have the decency and balls to REFUSE to take shelter with and endanger the lives of civilian relatives.

rawsta: STOP BLINDLY SUPPORTING ISRAEL AND THIS shiat MIGHT ACTUALLY END!!!!

Actually, if we stop restraining Israel this shiat might actually get settled.

Prospero424: I don't think there's any question that what Israel is doing in Lebanon is only strengthening and legitimizing Hezbollah in the eyes of not only the Lebanese people, but many moderate arabs throughout the world; this invasion has done nothing but brighten their long-term prospects of popular support.


So what? Hezbollah kidnapped their troops - has been killing Israeli people with rocket bombs. Wtf? They are just supposed to sit and take that? I saw the Syrian Ambassador on 'Meet the Press' this Sunday. The official position of his goverment is that IUsrael should cease to exist and give back the 'stolen arab lands'. He also said his goverment was not giving weapons to Hezbollah - but that the US is giving arms to Israel to kill women and children in Lebanon with, and that if you are a tax payer in the United States you are killing Lebanese women and children.

Somewhere along the way I got the impression Islam was a religion of peace and brotherly love. When did their Holy Book become a pamplet of war?

It is my opinion that the biggest part of the fault lies in the hate mongering leaders of Islam who have led an uneducated and underpriviledged mass of Arab humanity into believing it is okay to kill in the name of Allah. Exactly where is that in the Koran?

Shame on those shephards for leading their sheep over that ledge.

The Israelis are doing our work for us. Me likey.

Beer Nutz

Had this been a new problem I might agree with you. Israel has been putting up with this shiat for far too long.

I agree with you in part. Israel has been putting up with this for far too long. The terrorist attacks are atrocities and inexcusable. The problem is that the Isralies have been trying this tactic for decades and the problem has only gotten worse. It may be time to try something new.

Sloth_DC

??? The one and only time we ever followed that rule was Vietnam. We lost. We've never since (or before) followed the principle of proportionality - it's a good way to lose wars.

Not true,we have practiced it in the most effective operations in Iraq. When we have gone overboard the backlash has been brutal. When you are fighting an enemy that recruits members by painting someone as an oppressor and you make it seem like you are an oppressor guess what happens? They get a lot more recruits.

2006-07-25 11:00:11 PM flaEsq

Are you distressed by the failure of certain media in failing to stress the culpability of voters who'd irrationally placed terrorists into their own government?

No I am more interested in how convinantly people can seperate a Political group from it's military group and only condone it's actions and not it's policies. Only the US, Netehrlands, Isreal, and AUstralia label Hezbollah as Terrorists, while the UK only labels the miltary arm of Hezbollah as Terrorists. Extremist Muslims, and Hezbollah call them "Risistance fighters"

The only solution is to treat them all like children, have isreal and Hezbollah go into thier corners and have a time out (cease-fire), while no one bothers to talk to Hezbollah unless they return the Isreali Soldiers that started this whole mess.

Sloth_DC: Evidence? Mind you, it has to be really strong evidence to successfully disagree with every major newspaper in the world.


Dude - troll bait like that smells like paid - you know what I mean? After listening to indignant Arabs get up on world media and biatch - I m thinking stuff like that is par for the course where ever possible.

It's a lot more cost-effective to kill all the Jews than Arabs. Just saying.

Beauf: Not true,we have practiced it in the most effective operations in Iraq. When we have gone overboard the backlash has been brutal. When you are fighting an enemy that recruits members by painting someone as an oppressor and you make it seem like you are an oppressor guess what happens? They get a lot more recruits.


Big farking deal. If the enemy is going out of their way to kill you - who-farking-cares-what-they-think-about shiat?

Dr. Frisbee: The fact is, if those Arab nations would just leave them alone, none of this crap would happen. Pure and simple.

I doubt that. The Israeli's inferiority complex would never allow for peace. They'd fake terrorist actions as a pretext for another invasion of some random country. Without their "war on terrorism" Israel is nothing but a tiny country in the middle of a desert and the Israeli government's ego just can't stand that fact.

Beauf: Not true,we have practiced it in the most effective operations in Iraq.

Arooo? Our invasion of Iraq was proportionate to...what, exactly?