>> if BP delivers solar at a profit, idiots will scream and cry at the levels of those profits since the sunlight costs them nothing. "big solar" will be attacked for delivering what the market demands, but at the same time being so arrogant as to expect to earn a profit on their investments. liberal politicians will step in to start taxing solar power and the energy marketplace will be as screwed up then as it is now.

Ain't it great how he can tell what the future is gonna be. And the best part is he's never wrong.

Corruption?
http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20060724-111915-6219r.htm

wingnutx: The US should emulate France's nuclear industry, imho. They done good.

We'll call it "Freedom power".

And in second place paygun

>> Thankfully, you've come to the rescue.

Maybe not but at least i know a waste of time when i see one.

While the submitter may have been incorrect, he is far from owned. Over the last 20 years, California has added 2% (1418MW) of generating capacity. I believe it is more that fair to say the environmental libtards in California have made it difficult to expand generating capacity during the last 20 years. Therefore, I propose the corrected submission should read 20 years instead of 30 years.

2006-07-25 02:03:10 PM REAL SHAMAN: The problems, however are very real. And the wonderful list of power plants has some great info. Alameda landfill natural gas plant? This is a doozy. Bet it puts out a coupla watts. Read the list. It is long, but seems to lack substantiation. Wind turbos?

Another one was a sewage treatment plant? One on the patio? Several were listed as experimental. Too bad the list didn't mention capacity. Smitty's post may not be that inaccurate.

I was going off the POWER_PLANTS.XLS spreadsheet with the 965 power plants. I snipped Column R or whatever-it-was when I saw that all 965 were operational.

Not to disagree with the populist sentiment that Sumby got p0wnd, since this is obviously the case. But I agree with you that crunching the list is a worthy exercise, especially for the intrepid souls who seek to point out Sumby's p0wnage. There is a distinct trend of more modern construction being limited to smaller facilities. Stuff like 77% of the plants being less than 30 years old, but putting out only 43% of the gross operational power. Of the 742 plants younger than those thirty years, only three of them put out more than a gigawatt, whereas 9 of the older plants do so. Stuff like that.

Look, I'm not going to sit here and claim "Counter-p0wnage." That would be ridiculous. But as to the notion that the Watermelons (green on outside, red on inside) are off the hook for helping to cause the recent crises...well, my verdict is "Needs More Research." And I think that's being generous.

mkfreeberg:

Nice!

Yeah now that we have settled the fact that liberals are exactly the way anne-hole sez they are lets have a serious discussion.

bradkanus [TotalFark]
The 30 year-old thing was a battle cry during the previous rolling blackouts during the Enron days.

And it was BS back then, for a different reason. During the height of the rolling blackouts, the capacity of the generators was never exceeded. The blackouts were caused by Enron tactics such as shifting power out of the state and taking plants offline in order to artificially raise the cost of electricity.

Anybody who thinks that they can meet the energy needs of a planet by harnessing the dilute radiant energy of a celestial object 93 million miles away has more faith in Greenpeace than physics

>> I believe it is more that fair to say blah blah

I believe it's fair to say i am Jesus

someone is a doofus...submittah

To all the Republitards that are obviously ignorant of California politics:

1. Failed "Energy Deregulation" is at the root of the problem, not a lack of power plants.

2. This failed deregulation scheme was signed into law by Pete Wilson. In 1996.

3. Pete Wilson is a Republican.


/that is all
//where's your "free market" now, biatches?

twilson2: Maybe not but at least i know a waste of time when i see one.

Dude, you said that on fark.

big4head: Nuclear has gotten a bum rap for years from scaremongering environmentalists and their sympathizers (think "China Syndrome").

It's unecessary.

Wanted for questioning:

twilson2
Wait a minute, didnt you just say that you wanted to get down to a serious discussion? Was that sarcasm that didnt come through? Bobby2names made a good point, supported with factual data that wasnt in the least bit inflammatory. That should warrant a response leading to discourse from someone so interested in valid discourse.
Are you sure you dont have a reading disorder? Something cortical?

Headlines like that make me hate fark.com sometimes. Submitter is 12 years old and an idiot or 35 and a bitter idiot.

>> anybody who thinks that they can meet the energy needs of a planet by harnessing the dilute radiant energy of a celestial object 93 million miles away has more faith in Greenpeace than physics

Yeah thats crazy.

I only believe really smart conservatives that figured out that Clinton was dealing drugs out of Mena

Californians are the reason that they are suffering from blackouts. So, I guess whomever they voted for, and whatever laws and regulations were passed, liberal or not, it's all the Californian's fault.

So, who's punked themselves worse, Californians or the submitter?

nerfball
what is arnold supposed to do, claim land by eminent domain and have high tension distribution lines built? is THAT was taxpayers are demanding?

1. Arnold has had 3 years to address this. Has he done anything?

2. Arnold has no problem with going directly to the voters on issues that he deems important. The voters can pass legislation by voting, via proposition.

3. Where's the farking solution, asshat?

>> Dude, you said that on fark.

I did ?

Gee i thought i was having tea with the Queen.

It doesn't matter how good the plants are when the wires that run the electricity are so damn ancient and overwhelmed and plants shunting power to other states in bad ways, that they can't handle the surge in demand and trigger shutoffs.

Its bad management from the power companies and maintenance that causes these problems.

I blame teh Jews.

/allahu snackbar

Dr. Howard C. Hayden, Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of Connecticut

"To produce an average of 1000 MW, the power produced by any large conventional (coal, oil, nuclear, gas) power plant, would require about 833 square kilometers of wind turbines. That's the area of a mile-wide swath of land extending from San Francisco to Los Angeles. Multiply that by about 30 and you have California's electricity."

Dr. J. Terry Rogers, Carleton University Professor Emeritus of mechanical engineering, has shown that an efficient solar plant would have to occupy over 600 square kilometres, about the same as that of Metro Toronto, to match the energy provided on a regular basis by the Pickering nuclear station. The construction of such massive solar plants would require millions of tons of concrete, steel and glass, the production of which would produce air pollution equivalent to several years of fossil fuel plant operation. These behemoths would also ruin the local natural environment for wildlife and could even upset local weather patterns due to ground reflectivity changes caused by the mirrors. Not surprisingly, Dr. Rogers maintains, "Solar energy can never be a significant contributor to large-scale energy needs in a major industrial country like Canada."

paygun
twilson2: Maybe not but at least i know a waste of time when i see one.
Dude, you said that on fark.

I think I wet my pants again.

/Drinking from my bottle of FIJI water in Cleveland.
//Keyboard, mouse, calculator, soaked

2006-07-25 02:50:48 PM meenkya

anathama
3./ If you arent in California, we dont need you worrying about us, k thanx.

Wow....
We pissed off the California Hippies.

/Can't wait til the shiat hole falls in the ocean.
//Bought 1500 acres of ocean front property in Nevada.

wtf said i was a hippy?

California contains perhaps more people who call themselves Conservative than any other state. At least 10,000,000 more people live in California than Texas, and most of California is not San Francisco or L.A.

San Diego, Orange County, San Bernadino, the entire Central Valley, the half of the state north of the Golden Gate Bridge, and the eastern half of the state, are all pretty Conservative.

If you havent noticed, the person elected as Governor isn't a hippy. Someone must have voted for him.

I love the "I cant wait til California is gone" sentiment.


Please, try an experiment some time. Pretend California did fall into the ocean. Dont eat most fruits and vegetables, watch TV, go to the movies, turn on the radio or pop in a CD or use your iPod or xbox or PDA, dont use Yahoo! or Google or MSN to search on the web, make sure your net traffic doesnt go through any Cisco routers or swtiches or SUN servers, while you are at it, you better make sure you dont use DNS or IP while online, drink most domestic wine, buy any Chinese made products at WAL*MART, or take your kids to Disneyland, let them watch any Disney/Pixar movies, and of course, dont come here on vacations.

Here is a nice quick summary of why your eating experience will suffer when the Arizona Bay scenario occurs, and look, its on Free Republic, so you KNOW it's correct:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1666533/posts

The_Raconteur: It's unecessary.

see above

twilson2: I only believe really smart conservatives that figured out that Clinton was dealing drugs out of Mena

trollicious, dude

SSPinkerton


but would you say "You're supposed to have a backup plan in case something like this happens", referring to what someone else should have done for you? i sure hope not. if we don't have a plan (i say we because i don't either), that's our fault.


Good point. I'd probably complain about the pain and expense but that's about it.

twilson2: Gee i thought i was having tea with the Queen.

That must be some bitter tea.

big4head: see above

I read what you wrote below, didn't change my mind.

baby_hewey

otakucode,

After reading your little thing about shutting down generators, I just want to make you an offer. Uh, don't tell anyone but I have "proof", yea that's it, of the Bush being the 2nd shooter in Dallas. It was all a Republican plot see.

/Conspiricy Theories are teh Kool!

There are public records of Enron employees on tape talking to PG&E plants asking them if they could, you know, shut down their plants for a few hours for no good reason. We have other tape recordings of Enron employees boasting about how easy it is for them to manipulate power prices in California. Further more, it is a matter of public record that the peak power consumption during the rolling blackouts never exceeded the state's capacity to generate energy.

There's nothing theoretical (conspiratorial or otherwise) about it. Enron's employees deliberately screwed California and their gaming of the grid led to the blackouts. This has been repeatedly and well established for some time. Trying to play this off as some kind of tinfoil-hat shennanigans is foolish.

As for the Ahnuld connection... that's a lot more tenuous. It is a fact that Lay and company did meet with Ahnuld, and it doesn't take much extrapolation to see that Arnie did, in fact, benefit from the energy crisis. There is, however, no direct evidence of a conspiracy to put him in the governor's seat. We can only observer that the result was quite convenient for Enron.

>> Dr. Howard C. Hayden, Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of Connecticut

Yeah and as i jump into my 1910 Stuz Bearcat that gets 6 miles to the gallon i know that this is the highest level of automotive technology that can ever be achieved.

Why are we wasting time on these hybrid pipe dreams and fairytales of 40 mpg.

My ability to see into the future has shown me that will never happen.

AHeitman:

Thanks for your support. People too often refuse to lets facts get in the way of a good argument (or flamewar.)

IMHO, most Americans lack the basic understanding math, science, and technology to make or understand a cogent argument regarding the energy crisis. Politicians of all stripes use that lack of fundamental understanding to influence the voters. Sad!

I believe the best strategy lies in the investment in nuclear power (fission-based) until other hydrocarbon/hydrogen fuels can be developed. Shale oil, biomass, tar sands, Fischer-Tropsch gassification, etc. If the country can become more energy independent, we can have a much more rational foreign policy, instead of one always driven by energy interdependence.

twilson2: Why are we wasting time on these hybrid pipe dreams and fairytales of 40 mpg.


again see above. Solar is a very dilute energy source and, failing some monster solar array in outer space and the rediscovery of Tesla's mythical ability to transmit power through the air will NEVER generate enough power (though it would keep a lot of folks employed cleaning mirrors). Wind is much more dilute.

Please. Why should conservatives bother with the truth, when lying about things is so much easier, and requires no complex thought? I mean, if a three year old asks you why the sky is blue, is it easier to talk about physics, or to say that god painted it blue? Conservatives just haven't got past the 'god painted it' stage.

kicksmile


Not to make everyone here look like asshats but there was a pipline that was supposed to be built that would have pumped oil into cali from Alaska and Western Canada. Libbys got thier thongs up thier cracks about this because of the risk of a leak in the ocean. This might have solved this, but Im just a scientists I dont have feelings.


First of all, the proposed pipeline would have terminated in the Midwest, not in California.

Secondly, the reason that proposed route fell through was through the machinations of Alaska's congressional delegation that didn't want to split the wellhead tax with Canada (the price that would be paid to run the pipeline through Canadian territory). Instead, they wanted to pocket all the money and thus constructed the pipeline through Canada to Valdez (which they improved massively for its new role as a oil terminal).

AHeitman

Grey Davis was blamed for the last blackouts because he privatized the utilities and let them sell all of their energy out of state.....

I'm not a fan of Davis (based on his mishandling of the budget), but the privatization of the utilities was accomplished against his will by the legislature which, at the time, was dominated by Republicans. This was done in the name of deregulation which Conservatives tend to think of as a general panacea.

nearly everytime some conservative moron speaks from his ignorance, 20 people show up with conclusive proof to refute his ignorant claim... and yet they are back the next day with the same nonsense..... insanity.

2names
I feel your pain. As a career scientist in mid career switch, it pains me to see people abuse science as such and spin it politically.
I agree that nuclear presents the best option at hand, and with more modern technologies it has become increasingly cleaner as well as more efficient. The problem is, most of American lives in a cave and can only think of Chernobyl etc. when nuclear power comes up.

This just in: Conservative headlines on Fark reflect the stupidity of all republicans! 1111 eleven!!!111

big4head: again see above. Solar is a very dilute energy source and, failing some monster solar array in outer space and the rediscovery of Tesla's mythical ability to transmit power through the air

Microwaves(pops) are mythical?

How Much Energy Could You Save If You Constrict Anus 100 Times Everyday. Malarkey? or Effective Way?

anrwlias
Im not so sure of that, especially the republican controlled congress part. I had family that was working at the capital during that time and it certainly didnt seem as such. Moreover, Gray Davis is a slimey slimey politician. That has little to do with the current crisis, its just my estimation from seeing his activities first hand.

>> transmit power through the air will NEVER generate

When the railroad was first implemented they use to talk about how 28 mph was the top speed that humans could survive at.

So who's gonna win the 4th race at Belmont swami

anathama
I love the "I cant wait til California is gone" sentiment.

I think it's hilarious. Usually, you'll find that the person saying it lives in a trailer in Missouri and thinks going out to eat at The Olive Garden is a fancy meal.