I can sympathize with Israel in the current situation.

But I think it may be time for the Israeli jews to come home to America, where they belong.

Ha! Try to put the ol' anti-semitic spin on that one. Not only do we not hate you, we like so much that we want you here, improving our economy and our cuisine.

/not to mention the hot Israeli babe factor....
//Operation Texadus, Move Jahovah People!

....to the "Lone Star of David" State!

dinch: Holy crap. I knew I'd been out of touch with the real world after having the kid, but farkin A, why'd Israel wait so long? J


Because retaliation usually leads ot escalation, and also Israel always gets blamed for retaliating. So usually it waits an unusually long time to strike back, if at all.

Tatsuma is still trying to justify Israel's war crimes?
Jesus, what balls!

shipud: What have they got to do with the 2004 withdrawal from Gaza and the 2000 withdrawal from SL?

They illustrate the "resonableness" of the Israeli's. They Illustrate Israels history of grabbing land. They add context.
They undermine your assertion that Israel is the victim here.

/did I really have to explain that to you?

cryptozoophiliac: There can never be justification for the horrors of war. The only justification for war is that man is too infantile at this stage in his developement to transcend his selfish, partisan and territorial nature. Which is a pretty weak justification at that.

My grandmother, a survivor of this justified attack salutes you, as do the ghosts of Dresden.

Quite a tear-jerker of an appeal to emotion. I suppose I should point out they were justified according to your analogy asserting the commonality between V2 attacks and Hezbollah rockets. Perhaps I should have simply said it was a fallacious analogy? Either way, lets all agree that V2's were sweet. Or we can not agree, thats fine too.




untrustworthy: Example: If you are my neighbor and have a 6'5" 250lb teenage son and you are a 5'4" 125lb dad and he starts vandalizing my property, I'm gonna come over and kick his ass and your ass. Maybe you find that less damaging than confronting your son yourself, but you still deserve a beat-down for letting it happen.

Then I would blow up your wife and children with a rocket. A vengeance rocket.

SHIPUD
"Because retaliation usually leads ot escalation, and also Israel always gets blamed for retaliating. So usually it waits an unusually long time to strike back, if at all."

Yeah, sigh.

"Why'd you do that?"
"Because they did this"
Yeah, well, why'd they do that?"
"Because they did this"
ad infinitum all the way back to the frickin' English goofing up the area in the first place.

7footJesus: Tatsuma is still trying to justify Israel's war crimes?
Jesus, what balls!

Tatsuma, Officer Palibasher, and Officer KeepthePallysdown all got balls.

Joseph Stalin, you are aptly named, though something tells me you've never seen action. And yes, Mr. Von Braun was a hell of a scientist.

And no, September 11 was not justified based on vengeance, any more than London or Madrid or any other act of supidity or political fearmongering.

josephstalin: Either way, lets all agree that V2's were sweet.

This reminds me of the quote of the centuary.

"I always aimed at the stars, but sometimes I hit London"
Werner Von Braun.

JOSEPHSTALIN

I liked the ones with the checkerboard pattern better, but each to his own I suppose.

Is Tatsuma in Israel yet?

Lard_Baron: They illustrate the "resonableness" of the Israeli's. They Illustrate Israels history of grabbing lan


Israel withdrew from Gaza.

Israel withdrew from Southern Labanon.

Result: Israel gets attacked from territory it withdrew from.

Cherry picking quotes from 16 years ago, by has-been politicians (the Shamir one was debunked, BTW) is not going to change that.

If you want quotes, here are some from the Hamas covenant, ratified one year ago by the Palestinian Authority. Not 16 years ago by people no longer at play, but today, by the Palestinian establishement itself:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."


And my favorite:

"The Zionist movement relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups."

1) Israel withdraws from territory
2) Arabs use that territory to launch strikes against Israel
3) Israel strikes back
4) World blames Israel for not withdrawing.

Absolutely. At a protest last night, I saw people with signs demanding that Israel institute a cease fire. As if that is going to stop Hezbollah from launching rockets into northern Israel.

I was never too keen on the protracted Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon, but now, in the absence of any Lebanese interest in reigning in Hezbollah, it seems like the only way for Israel to effectively defend itself. If the world is going to blame them for being attacked and for being such Jewy targets, they might as well ensure their security through reoccupation. At least until they can eliminate Hezbollah as a threat to Lebanese and Israeli citizens.

Tatsuma

And for the record:

falsify
One entry found for falsify.
Main Entry: fal·si·fy
Pronunciation: 'fol-s&-"fI
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -fied; -fy·ing
Etymology: Middle English falsifien, from Middle French falsifier, from Medieval Latin falsificare, from Latin falsus
transitive verb
1 : to prove or declare false : DISPROVE
2 : to make false : as
a : to make false by mutilation or addition
b : to represent falsely : MISREPRESENT
3 : to prove unsound by experience

So, headline was spinning the BBC's misrepresentation of the real civilian casualties by using a stronger term than what ought to be said.

/misrepresenting a misrepresentation?

That's fine, your intention is clear. BBS is anti-Israel (and thus, most likely, anti-semitic) because they make statements like "Israeli military actions in Lebanon have killed over 350 people, many of them civilians" rather than clearly identifying exact numbers. You chose the term 'falsify', as did the article you linked (which is one floor-humper short of being the Israeli NewsMax), to suggest a willful, intentional misrepresentation on the part of the BBC. The BBC's vague language ('many civilians') makes your critique possible, but it does not prove the validity of your statement. In fact, by your own citation of Israeli government figures ('more than half of the dead were terrorists'), the BBC's statements (that 'many were civilians') is still valid and not false or misrepresentative. Furthermore, the BBC stories that I have read have seemed relatively balanced. They not only cite reporters in both Lebanon and Israel, but also reproduce statements by both governments.

To me, the more interesting part of the civilian casualties story is that Isreal's kill count if 10 times higher and their ratio of combatants to civilians killed is only marginally better (if the 'more than half' statement is interpreted as 'slightly more than half') than the deaths attributed to Hezbollah at this point in the conflict (according to this quote: "At least 364 Lebanese have been killed in the 12 days of violence, many of them civilians, and angry protests condemning Israeli attacks have been held in cities around the world.
At least 36 Israelis have been killed, including 17 civilians killed by rockets fired by Hezbollah into Israel." linked from this BBC article).

Even more troubling to me than the civilian death count is the fact that Israel is attacking civilian infrastructure when they should be actively engaging the Lebanese government to cooperate in the destruction of terrorist organizations in southern Lebanon. The strategy being employed so far suggests to me that Israel is actively punishing a very weak government for not being able to control terrorist organizations within its claimed boundaries by further weakening the state and its capacity to control those terrorist groups. Sounds a bit counter-productive to me.

The actions of both Hezbollah and Israel are sickening to me. While Hezbollah needs to be stopped, Israel needs to find a better way to do it than the methods they are currently using. This strategy seems designed to deter other states from getting involved, which would make sense if it was the Lebanese government attacking Israel. But it will be ineffective against terrorist organizations and perhaps even beneficial to the terrorists' cause.

why should I trust this source? If someone could find CREDIBLE evidence of this I'd read it.

Tatsuma that isn't a Gorilla. That is an Orangutan.

shipud: Israel withdrew from Gaza.

Are they going to withdraw for the West Bank?

If I invaded your home then withdrew from the back porch keeping the rest would that be reasonable?

Lard_Baron: "I always aimed at the stars, but sometimes I hit London"
Werner Von Braun.

My new favorite quote.

cryptozoophiliac: Joseph Stalin, you are aptly named, though something tells me you've never seen action.

I've seen plenty of action with your grandmother. But the ghosts of Dresden kept peeking at us.

dinch: I liked the ones with the checkerboard pattern better, but each to his own I suppose.

So do I:



And here are some more patterns:



Mmm...phallic.

misanthropologist: Even more troubling to me than the civilian death count is the fact that Israel is attacking civilian infrastructure when they should be actively engaging the Lebanese government to cooperate in the destruction of terrorist organizations in southern Lebanon.


That has been tried for 6 years, Israel has constantly called for the implementation of 1559 But when three ministers in that government are Hizballah, that was kind of impossible.

What you are saying is a bit paradoxial. On the one hand you are admitting that the Lebanese government cannot control hizballah (it IS Hizballah, to some extent). On the other, you are sayijng that Israel should seek cooporation: Israel should seek help from the very entity that refuses sovereignity over southern Lebanon.

Yes, and the civillian kill ratio is higher on the Lebanese side. How many US civillians were killed in WWII? Does that make the US the morally wrong party in that war?

Lard_Baron: Are they going to withdraw for the West Bank?


Why should they? So the Palestinians could rocket Tel Aviv? The Paletinain government is set on destroying the State of Israel. It has explicitly been stated by all memebrs in the ruling power. Why should Israel commit suicide?

So let me sum this up: Because the BBC doesn't agree with tatsuma, they must be biased.

Oh, and you're anti-semitic if you don't think so.

phallicy? I'd think that if I was that pointy I wouldn't be married right now.

shipud: Why should they?

Because it is the root of all the angst. Not only with the Palistinians but all the Arab world.
There will never be peace without a fair settlement of the West bank land.If they could hammer out a solution and get the Palistians to agree a huge amount of tension would be removed.
Until Israel seriously address's this I will not belive that Israel is serious about peace, they are just conducting a propaganda exercise.

For anyone wanting to understand what this "Three Weeks War" is about, Juan Cole has a pretty good description. Apparently, the Israelis have been giving PowerPoint presentations on this pre-planned offensive to Washington think tanks over the last year:



Matthew Kalman reveals that Israel's wideranging assault on Lebanon has been planned in a general way for years, and a specific plan has been in the works for over a year. The "Three Week War" was shown to Washington think tanks and officials last year on powerpoint by a senior Israeli army officer:

"More than a year ago, a senior Israeli army officer began giving PowerPoint presentations, on an off-the-record basis, to U.S. and other diplomats, journalists and think tanks, setting out the plan for the current operation in revealing detail."



The Israelis tend to launch their wars of choice in the summer, in part because they know that European and American universities will be the primary nodes of popular opposition, and the universities are out in the summer. This war has nothing to do with captured Israeli soldiers. It is a long-planned war to increase Israel's ascendency over Hizbullah and its patrons.

snip

That is why I was so shaken by George W. Bush's overheard conversation with Tony Blair about the war. He clearly thought that it broke out because Syria used Hizbullah to create a provocation. The President of the United States did not know that this war was a long-planned Israeli war of choice.

Why is that scarey? Because the Israeli planning had to have been done in conjunction with Donald Rumsfeld at the US Department of Defense. The US Department of Defense is committed to rapidly re-arming Israel and providing it precision laser-guided weaponry, and to giving it time to substantially degrade Hizbullah's missile capabilities. The two are partners in the war effort.


snip

What is scarey is that Cheney and Rumsfeld don't appear to have let W. in on the whole thing. They told him that Bashar al-Asad of Syria stirred up a little trouble because he was afraid that Iraq the Model and the Lebanese Cedar Revolution might be such huge successes that they would topple him by example (just as, after Poland and the Czech Velvet Revolution, other Eastern European strongmen fell). (Don't fall down laughing at the idea of Iraq and Lebanon as Republican Party success stories; people in Washington, DC, coccoon a lot and have odd ideas about the way the world is.) So, Bush thought, if that is all that is going on, then someone just needs to call al-Asad and reassure him that we're not going to take him out, and get him to rein in Hizbullah. And then the war would suddenly stop. No one told Bush that this war was actually an Israeli war of choice and that al-Asad had nothing to do with it, that, indeed, it could only happen because al-Asad is already irrelevant.

--> www.juancole.com


Sorry about the long cut and paste, but it's about as relevant to this thread as anything really could be.

BTE, Israel has attempted to address it, but once PM Yitzhak Rabin was been assassinated by right winger the attempt was severly damaged. Then right wing took over...and that was that.

Everyone defending the BBC here are the same ones who are constantly attacking Fox News.

Typical hypocritical Farkers

/Liked Fark before it became a haven for morans.

Perhaps if we all ignore Tatsuma, he'll go away.

He won't read this though, as he blocks anyone that disagrees with him.

Fark must look to him completely unlike it actually is.

Tatsuma: Can't you just fark of the Internets? You're a boring , trolling one-track pony.

Lard_Baron: shipud: Why should they?

Because it is the root of all the angst. Not only with the Palistinians but all the Arab world.


So there was no "angst" before Israel occupied the WB? IIRC, the occupation started because Israel was attacked from those territories.

There will never be peace without a fair settlement of the West bank land.If they could hammer out a solution and get the Palistians to agree a huge amount of tension would be removed.

There wasn't peace before teh occupation.

And, the Palestinians have explicitly stated that there will not be peace after the occupation ends, either.

Gaaad. fark off the Internets. See how annoyed he makes me?

He's like the Ann Coulter of Fark. Wonder if we could get them together - they'd probably have babies.

FYI=

"A BBC reporter said he saw Hizbullah terrorists using a private home and added, 'It is difficult to quantify who is a terrorist and who is a civilian.'" /= The BBC is including every dead person as a civilian casualty.


But you guys can get back to arguing about who you think is the bigger evil boogieman now.

Nemo's Brother: Everyone defending the BBC here are the same ones who are constantly attacking Fox News.


Jeez. I wonder why that is, could it be that one is fair and balanced the other isn't?

lARD_BARON

Israel cannot give up the West Bank because it is a perfect place to shell Israel from, which apparently is something that somebody is always bound to do.

Not saying I agree, just sayin'. Seems like the only real solution is to make everybody pack up and leave. That, or disarm the whole area and make them have yearly mudfights to solve their problems. They could have a picnic afterwards and everybody could hug and share candy.

Damn those j00s for retaliating against the group that's been firing rockets non-stop at their cities for the past few weeks.

Looks like the anti-semites have come out of the woodwork on Fark. Good times! Down with Israel, right kids?

shipud: There wasn't peace before teh occupation.

Are you saying that if an agreement was made with the Palistinians that that wouldnt be a HUGE step forwad?

If I invaded your home then withdrew from the back porch keeping the rest would that be reasonable?

If myself and the entire neighborhood was intent on extirminating you and your entire family, burning down your house, bulldozing the rubble into the sea and seizing your property for our own wants, yes, we'd deserve it. And no one should have sympathy for us and our crocodile tears. Boo freakin' hoo.

Lord Summerisle: Piss off, you Zionist butcher scum.


No, he's never butchered anybody. He's got plenty of reasons why he's not over there butchering. Mostly, cowardice.

dinch: Israel cannot give up the West Bank because it is a perfect place to shell Israel from, which apparently is something that somebody is always bound to do.

then part of the agreement could be to de-militarise the West bank.

No, Lard Baron, one speaks your beliefs more than the other. Granted the BBC is a hell of a lot more through than Fox News, but them doing this, refusing to dub the 7/7 terrorists as terrorists and referring to them as "Asians" because their warped view of PC-dom would shatter if they used the term Middle Eastern, proves they have no problem letting their own agendas dictate what and how they tell the news.

Also wonder why the European press spoke so little of the Oil for Food Scandal.

TheHoodedClaw: He's got plenty of reasons why he's not over there butchering


I got there within 3 months of thinking it would be a good idea. just get to london, coach to Italy then ferry to Tel-Aviv. Got to a Kibbutz and that was that. all set up.

I went as a "Damn those Arab terrorists" I left thinking...."Hummm...theres two sides to this"

LARD_BARON

How would you go about convincing the Palestines not to bring weapons in that area? You couldn't, unless you gave them hope for a better life somehow if they didn't, and I don't see that ever becoming a reality. These people are raised thinking that Israel must be wiped off the map and that it's perfectly ok to die to do it. Deadly battles are such a staple of their lives that they'd probably go into withdrawl if they did.

Nemo's Brother: refusing to dub the 7/7 terrorists as terrorists and referring to them as "Asians"

Show me that article or be proved a liar.

/was in London at the time.

Lard_Baron: Are you saying that if an agreement was made with the Palistinians that that wouldnt be a HUGE step forwad?

But the don't want an agreement.

The official policy of Hamas: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

And there was an agreement. The Oslo accords. See how well that ended.

dinch: How would you go about convincing the Palestines not to bring weapons in that area? You couldn't, unless you gave them hope for a better life somehow if they didn't, and I don't see that ever becoming a reality. These people are raised thinking that Israel must be wiped off the map and that it's perfectly ok to die to do it. Deadly battles are such a staple of their lives that they'd probably go into withdrawl if they did.

You are demonising them, they are OK. really.
heres a map of the west bank, sorry I cannot HTML it.
Take a long look at it. think what it is live to live there as a Palistinian.

http://www.mideastweb.org/fmep_israel_settlements_map1.gif

Once you've looked a lot is explained.

Fox News has better action footage than CNN.

Please stop criticizing Israel, you dirty anti-Semites!

FOX is all Jews all 24 hours, though. It's like a cheering section.

Lard_Baron: I got there within 3 months of thinking it would be a good idea. just get to london, coach to Italy then ferry to Tel-Aviv. Got to a Kibbutz and that was that. all set up.

I went as a "Damn those Arab terrorists" I left thinking...."Hummm...theres two sides to this"


I've only been to Eilat, but I guess that's very different to some other parts. My dad passed through Beirut in the sixties and he's always maintained that it was, and should still be, one of the world's great cities.

xCh: There must be reasonable limits in self-defense, and Isreal has crossed the line into vengence. [sic]

BS. Vengeance would be going into Syria and/or Iraq, or massive carpet-bombing of southern Lebanon.

If anything, Israel has shown remarkable restraint, given all the crap they put up with from Hamas and Hizbollah, not to mention all the heated rhetoric coming from Iran.