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(Some Guy)   Boy Scouts want to have their cake and eat it too -- continues to discriminate, but demands free stuff other private organizations are required to pay for   (mercurynews.com) divider line 680
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15690 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jul 2006 at 3:13 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-07-12 05:13:47 AM
technicolor-misfit: You're polishing a turd.


!!!
 
2006-07-12 05:14:01 AM
technicolor-misfit: You're polishing a turd.

Had I a mouthful of water, that would have been a spit take. Nice timing.
 
2006-07-12 05:14:19 AM
DoesItReallyMatter: Sure is nice to see the gay community come out swinging at boys learning life skills, CPR, life-saving techniques, First Aid, responsible camping, the environment and even sports.

They are coming out swinging at the fact that the boys in their community are being prevented from having free and equal access to a group that for years has taught "life skills, CPR, life-saving techniques, First Aid, responsible camping, the environment and even sports."

That you cannot see the difference is sad. They wish for all individuals to be able to have that experience. Otherwise they'd just go off and form a gay-only "Scouts" equivalent and deny all straight members. But as that's hateful, discriminatory, and wrong they simply are trying to provide incentive for the Scouts to reverse their decision.
 
2006-07-12 05:16:39 AM
This just in: Gay Scouts being sued by student rejected by straight clubs. "Richard Simmons, Gay Panic, and Chewbacca" defenses expected to ensue.

/sad that THIS is a fantasy
//get them gotDamn pink unicorns off my lawn!
 
2006-07-12 05:17:12 AM
FarkmeBlind

Translation:

We have to solve all other problems before this matters. How are we doing on that? Uhhhh, nothing to see here. Go back to screaming about gay Scouts until we have something positive to report. Don't hold your breath.


No, that's not really a translation of what I was trying to say, but thanks for playing. I clearly said non-profits have to play along all the same. I was merely trying to inject a sense of perspective here. I clearly failed.
 
2006-07-12 05:20:18 AM
Runin_With_Scissors: No, that's not really a translation of what I was trying to say, but thanks for playing. I clearly said non-profits have to play along all the same. I was merely trying to inject a sense of perspective here. I clearly failed.

We're posting our annoyance with the Boy Scouts because this is a thread about... the Boy Scouts. Hence the focus on... the Boy Scouts.

I could post about how much I am annoyed by timer-regulated traffic signals, but that'd have nothing to do with the thread - now would it?
 
2006-07-12 05:21:03 AM
Good lord I need to go to sleep. Good night all!
 
2006-07-12 05:23:16 AM
Wow thanks so much for pointing out the obvious to me Drakkenman.

That was kinda my point-
A thread.
On outrage against the Boy Scouts.
=eh.
 
2006-07-12 05:25:32 AM
Seems almost fair to me. Would be fairer if the boy scouts just bloody well grew up. As it were.
 
2006-07-12 05:25:57 AM
Should I copy and paste a bunch of text calling Paul Cameron an agenda-ridden evangelical crackpot with no understanding of statistics

That's not necessary. All of the pink text and rainbows all over the page shows the intellectual objectivity of such a report. "It MUST be true!"

I pointed out the vastly larger numbers of people who take said classes. The gov't doesn't subsidize them, but where are those people whining about the BSA's "special privileges"? There aren't any b/c lifesaving isn't a "special right" given only to straight kids.

No, the point is that you're throwing out the merits of an entire program based on what you call discrimination. Discrimination would actually hold merit, except that homosexuality denotes an action, where as black would denote a race.

There's a difference between not liking an action you perform, based on the fact you use it as a self-identifer.. versus not liking someone just because they're black. If you seriously can't see how that might cause concern for parents that you identify yourself by the gender you fark, what do you expect? (I know, just call it hate and discrimination and phobes and make yourself a victim.)

Are you seriously going to tell me that the percentage of gay men molesting boys is lower than straight men?
 
2006-07-12 05:26:35 AM
Runin_With_Scissors: No, that's not really a translation of what I was trying to say

Like I really thought you'd be honest. Whatever. Here's what you said.

Look people, I do agree that non-profits need to own up to the guidelines set for gov't funds, but my lord, think of all the ridiculous crap our tax monies fund every day that NONE of us agree with, yet the farking BOY SCOUTS are what you are all getting so indignant about?

So, you're saying the BSA's hypocritical stance isn't worth mentioning because other hypocrisies exist? What definition are you using for hypocrisy, and how many other problems must be solved before we deal with this one? I hear you saying "If the electorate doesn't agree 100%", it's a worthless argument." Is your name Chad and were you "hanging" during the previous election?

I think you protest too much, and that you have no idea of the structure/function of a Constitutional Republic. Do disabuse me, if you can.

I was merely trying to inject a sense of perspective here.

Whose perspective?

I clearly failed.

We agree. Let's find some other things upon which we agree.
 
2006-07-12 05:29:43 AM
DoesItReallyMatter: Are you seriously going to tell me that the percentage of gay men molesting boys is lower than straight men?

If we told you and posted links, would you believe?

/because it's true.
//"all men who molest boys are gay" is the reddest of herrings
///all men who molest girls are straight, thus it's okay
 
2006-07-12 05:29:43 AM
bmasso: Like it or not, not all religions conform to everything a secular humanist from Berkley believes in.

FarkMeBlind : Well, obviously they don't conform to the belief that gay young males have the right to belong to the Boy Scouts. As that is the Boy Scouts' stated position, they therefore have no right to use public facilities at public rates, since they are a private group, such that they reserve the right to restrict their membership to a given orientation. Said orientation being covered under non-discrimination statutes.

And just as the Catholic Church can not be forced or coerced by the gov't to admit women or practicing homosexuals into the priesthood, or forced or coerced to decide that gay sex is a GOOD thing, neither can a pan-religious group like the Boy Scouts be forced or coerced to change it's charter or principles.

In as much as gender or sexual orientation impinge upon religious practices or beliefs, religion usually wins.
Freedom of Religion trumps here, as it usually does.

If you offer freebies to all other non-profits, you're not allowed to vet the religious beliefs of those with a religious component to see if you approve of them before offering them the SAME. Otherwise the vaulted principle os Separation of Church & State means nothing - as we now can have "Gov't Approved" churches and "Gov't Non-Approved" churches.
 
2006-07-12 05:32:02 AM
Runin_With_Scissors - Wow thanks so much for pointing out the obvious to me Drakkenman.

That was kinda my point-
A thread.
On outrage against the Boy Scouts.
=eh.


Actually, I think it's outrage on government-funded discrimination.

Do we waste money elsewhere? Sure. Do we waste TONS of money elsewhere? Definitely.

Do I think mismanagement is as offensive as discrimination? Absolutely not.

I'd rather you waste $10 bucks of my money on stupidity than spend $1 giving the thumbs up to discrimination.

The problem with your "perspective" is that there will always be more pressing financial or legislative matters than whether or not we give money to the Boy Scouts. If we wait until everything else is fixed first, we'll never fix it.

It just becomes a way of pushing it off and never addressing the fact that we're financially supporting discrimination.
 
2006-07-12 05:33:02 AM
DoesItReallyMatter

Last I checked, being religious is behavioral, not congenital, so should we remove that from the list too? Not that I'm agreeing with your assertion that homosexuality is merely akin to deciding one day to do a little jogging...
 
2006-07-12 05:36:45 AM
bmasso: And just as the Catholic Church can not be forced or coerced by the gov't to admit women or practicing homosexuals into the priesthood, or forced or coerced to decide that gay sex is a GOOD thing, neither can a pan-religious group like the Boy Scouts be forced or coerced to change it's charter or principles.

The Catholic Church does not take public funds, that I know of, to support its religious activities. It takes advantage of the tax breaks afforded to religious institutions, and its students of accredited colleges are allowed to take out publicly funded loans. Its institutions of higher education take Title IX funds to expand women's sports opportunities.

However, if the BSA wants public funds it has to comply with the rules thereof.

Nobody is saying, "Teach kids gay sex is great", they're saying "No, you may not fail to teach gay kids that CPR is great."

I fail to see what the problem is, here. Everyone knows what the rules are, they haven't changed much. I do see a vocal minority b|tching, for no reason other than "I want to use everyone's money to support my personal causes". Sorry that seems to swab so much Tabasco on your rose, Bud.
 
2006-07-12 05:38:49 AM
That's not necessary. All of the pink text and rainbows all over the page shows the intellectual objectivity of such a report. "It MUST be true!"

You cite data from someone who makes Jack Chick look mainstream and you're calling on MY objectivity? Too bad the American Psychological Association agrees with me.
 
2006-07-12 05:39:37 AM
FarkmeBlind: It takes advantage of the tax breaks afforded to religious institutions, and its students of accredited colleges are allowed to take out publicly funded loans. Its institutions of higher education take Title IX funds to expand women's sports opportunities.

And toward those ends, it does not discriminate against a certain race, gender, or sexual orientation. Most "women's colleges" are Catholic-run (IIRC). There is no "are you a lesbian" question on their application forms.

Feel free to post any you happen to find that do say that. I'll wait.
 
2006-07-12 05:40:21 AM
FarkmeBlind
I think you protest too much, and that you have no idea of the structure/function of a Constitutional Republic. Do disabuse me, if you can.

want the names of my Con-law professors from law school? Granted that was a few years ago, but trust me, at the very least I have "an idea", if you will.

Like I really thought you'd be honest. Whatever.
honest? about what? a post that appeared a few lines above? um yeah, ok...

and thanks for taking my comments and trying to twist this into a personal attack. that's always such a productive argument.
and you've become pissy with me, why? I've in no way defended the actions of the BSA.
 
2006-07-12 05:41:22 AM
pjabbott: Too bad the American Psychological Association agrees with me.

Ooooh, they're anti...Xtian...and anti...herring-and-mayonnaise sandwiches and oooooh anti..Penguin Lust!
 
2006-07-12 05:41:42 AM
That you cannot see the difference is sad. They wish for all individuals to be able to have that experience. Otherwise they'd just go off and form a gay-only "Scouts" equivalent and deny all straight members. But as that's hateful, discriminatory, and wrong they simply are trying to provide incentive for the Scouts to reverse their decision.

Awwww, that's touching. Let's take a look at "providing incentives". Seeing as massive letter writing campaigns to almost every national American business demanding boycotts has been successful, The United Way dropped the Boy Scouts, President Clinton signing a ban for Boy Scouts to not be able to use Federal Land, urging police stations, fire stations and public schools not to allow Scout Activities, and lawsuit after lawsuit charging "discrimination" from anyone who does from the ACLU has shown that it's not about wishing gay scouts could have that experience...

.. no, it is revenge. Aggressive, strongarm revenge. At least have the sack to call it what it is.
 
2006-07-12 05:43:03 AM
Penguin Lust

Greatest. Comic strip. Storyline. EVAR.
 
2006-07-12 05:46:14 AM
Runin_With_Scissors: want the names of my Con-law professors from law school?

Not really. I once worked for a Con-Lawyer and after seeing my score on the practice LSAT he said "Don't go into law, you're too smart."

honest? about what?

Unsurprising.

I've in no way defended the actions of the BSA.

but my lord, think of all the ridiculous crap our tax monies fund every day that NONE of us agree with, yet the farking BOY SCOUTS are what you are all getting so indignant about?
sniff out a new cause already.
and before I get blasted that your cause is standing against discrimination, no, it isn't... is down to the almighty dollar.


You've said that the BSA is beneath notice and not worth our time and energy. You've also said that their motives are not what they say they are, but are only profit-driven (even though they're a non-profit).

You know, you're right. The BSA is a sh|t organization only interested in Mammon. Nobody should belong to them, because their motives are crap and no one cares anyway.

Wow, you should be in Marketing. Really.
 
2006-07-12 05:47:01 AM
DoesItReallyMatter No, the point is that you're throwing out the merits of an entire program based on what you call discrimination. Discrimination would actually hold merit, except that homosexuality denotes an action, where as black would denote a race.

Ooh, so close, yet so far off. If I say "No Catholics" I'm discrininating just as much as if I say "No blacks". And Being Catholic is a belief, not a race.

But where you really lose points is this little gem: homosexuality denotes an action. So sorry. You are gay whether you actually engage in homosexual sex or not. Sexual orientation is not a choice. It's deeply ingrained into you and there isn't jack squat you can do about it. You could no more be gay than my step-father could be straight (and unlike you, he really tried to be straight).

And to discuss your gays=child molesters post: yes, there are some gay men who like little boys. But there are a lot more straight men who like little girls (you did read about that incident in Fresno this week where as many as ten men may have molested ajn 11-year old girl?). Most child molesters, whether they molest boys or girls, identify themselves as straight. Most are married with families and do not engage in sexual relationships with other men.

Having worked with people who screen Big Brothers for Big Brothers/Big Sisters I can tell you that they reject a hell of a lot of straight men as potential molesters.

But don't let little things like logic and rality get in the way of your hatred and fear.
 
2006-07-12 05:48:17 AM
DoesItReallyMatter: .. no, it is revenge. Aggressive, strongarm revenge.

Equality under the law for all is now "revenge". What's that I hear in the distance? Could it be the siren call of the whaaaambulance?
 
2006-07-12 05:49:51 AM
FarkMeBlind,
Neither is the BSA "taking public funds, that I know of, to support it's religious activities".

My previous example of the CYO being REQUIRED to have equal-footing access to public auditoriums also applies here.

If Berkeley has a policy of free-docking to ALL non-profits, they can't just extend that to Greenpeace and any other NP's they personally like.
Nor can they now say - "oops, we MEANT to say free docking for A,B,C,D,E, & F non-profits, but NOT G,H, & U".
"Equal Access" in not just a term they can use against OTHER groups.

In for a penny, in for a pound.
 
2006-07-12 05:53:08 AM
bmasso: My previous example of the CYO being REQUIRED to have equal-footing access to public auditoriums also applies here.

Not if they don't provide equal access to non-catholics. You are denser that pound cake, you know that?
 
2006-07-12 05:57:24 AM
FarkmeBlind

Not really. I once worked for a Con-Lawyer and after seeing my score on the practice LSAT he said "Don't go into law, you're too smart."

hahahaa! thanks! I needed a good laugh this morning. *meow*



You've said that the BSA is beneath notice and not worth our time and energy. You've also said that their motives are not what they say they are, but are only profit-driven (even though they're a non-profit).

wow, so it is true! you really can take someone's own words- text even- and twist them so that they say whatever suits you! I thought only CBS and 60 Minutes had that magical ability! Sweet!
 
2006-07-12 06:00:25 AM
From a FA

"If you make an exception for the Sea Scouts, then when any other group in town wants to use something for free, they're going to throw it up in our face," she said.

Much-needed revenue

But others argue that a free berth would mean a loss of much-needed revenue at the marina, which is nearly half empty and loses about $700,000 annually. The Sea Scouts already have two free berths at the marina and are asking for another for the sailing ship Ariel.

"I have nothing against the Sea Scouts," said Mayor Rosemary Corbin. "I just don't think we have to be the only marina in the area giving them free berths."

"We can't afford to subsidize four Sea Scout groups in the area," Powers said. "Why should we take on what everyone else refuses to do."

City staff also believe the 73-foot boat is too big for any of the vacant berths at the marina. They recommended that the Sea Scouts fill out an application and wait for an appropriate berth.


So, it's not just the "ghey" issue, it's a monetary issue, and a space issue. Looks like the Scouts already have two free berths, and are demanding that any berth space they want, should be free. Odd that nobody in the past six hours bothered to actually look that up.
 
2006-07-12 06:00:46 AM
Wait! Wait! Wasn't Tom Cruise a BS??

Well that right there shows the Boy Scouts not only take gheys, but also alien-worshipers.

what's the problem?

/needed to lighten *my* mood anyway
 
2006-07-12 06:02:04 AM
bmasso: My previous example of the CYO being REQUIRED to have equal-footing access to public auditoriums also applies here.

FarkmeBlind : Not if they don't provide equal access to non-catholics. You are denser that pound cake, you know that?

Ah, the resort to the ad hominum.

As even a poundcake SHOULD realize, Catholics and Catholic Organizations (like the CYO) are NOT required to tailor either their beliefs NOR their membership in order to have the law REQUIRE that they have equal-footing access to public auditoriums.
That's the law.

If anything, a PAN-religious group, like the BSA, is even LESS "Discriminatory" as it's charter and beliefs are tailored so as to accomidate MANY religious beliefs. Just not ALL of them.
 
2006-07-12 06:02:52 AM
Runin_With_Scissors: I needed a good laugh this morning.

I've laughed several times while reading your "prose". Too bad you've only had one.

you really can take someone's own words- text even- and twist them so that they say whatever suits you!

Yes, Fox News can be didactic, dont'cha know.
 
2006-07-12 06:04:21 AM
bmasso: Ah, the resort to the ad hominum.

What's that? An "ad hominem" perhaps? Is your cut and paste broken?
 
2006-07-12 06:09:55 AM
wow FarkmeBlind. I am so sorry that you have taken such personal insult from my "prose".
I see you are now the self-appointed grammar police too. must suck up there all by yourself.

I'll shed a tear for ya later. not really.

off to work I go... enjoy your martyrdom and self-righteous horsey-ride.
 
2006-07-12 06:10:59 AM
erm, speaking of poundcake,
did you actually READ what you just cut & pasted there FMB?

article : But others argue that a free berth would mean a loss of much-needed revenue at the marina, which is nearly half empty and loses about $700,000 annually.

If the marina was SHORT of berths, then it might be a "monitary issue". It's, instead, half-empty. Assuming a small marina, say 100 docking spaces, that would free up two docks so they would go from 50 empty docks to 52 empty docks.

Yup, quite a money making scheme they've got going there.
Boy, who ever knew socialists were so money-smart?
 
2006-07-12 06:14:21 AM
The BS Motto

Scout Oath (or Promise)

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally [and sexually, apparently] straight.

Scout Law

TRUSTWORTHY
A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.[Unless they're gay]

LOYAL
A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation. [Unless they're gay or support gays]

HELPFUL
A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward. [Unless they're gay]

FRIENDLY
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own. [Unless they're gay]

COURTEOUS
A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together. [Unless they're gay]

KIND
A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason. [Unless they're gay]

OBEDIENT
A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them. [Unless they're gay or support the rights of gay people as full citizens of his/her community/nation]

CHEERFUL
A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy. [Unless they're gay or non-xtian]


THRIFTY
A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property. [Unless he/she thinks he/she could get it for free by whining]

BRAVE
A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him. [Unless he/she's gay]

CLEAN
A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean. [Unless there are gay people in the community. In that case, fark them.]

REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others. [Unless they're gay or pagan]

Scout Motto

Be Prepared [For daily gay onslaught]

Scout Slogan

Do a Good Turn Daily [A reacharound is nice, too]
 
2006-07-12 06:15:19 AM
Runin_With_Scissors: Well that right there shows the Boy Scouts not only take gheys, but also alien-worshipers.

Xenu wants you to prevent forest fires.
 
2006-07-12 06:16:29 AM
They're a freaking NON PROFIT, it's in their blood to want something for free. When I worked for an IT shop we got hammered with some local NPs that wanted everything for free (or cheap). Some of them were memorable.

The United Way. Had tons of money. Had an IT guy that made 50k to "maintain" 35 users (this was in 95, in a town where the avg income was 28k). He did nothing, if he needed to add a user or drop a new machine in they'd pay us 50/hr to do so. I think he changed toners. If they bought something and discovered they could get it cheaper for elsewhere they'd have a fit. Doesn't matter WHO had it cheaper, they'd spend hours looking in the back of Computer Shopper trying to see if we screwed 'em. To that I say f-you, UW. You should have bought a regular table for your conference room instead of dropping 40k on a table for 12.

That's just an example. The whole NP thing is a culture itself. It's a free money game. Some of them are ok and earn their keep, for others it is a giant leech game of "how much can I get from where". One place i dealt with had 2 fill time grant writers...if they had to say they were purple space aliens to get money they would, even if it went against their belief systems.

The BS council locally was always amusing to deal with. One of our techs was highly religious, he was the one I sent out there. While the BS are full of love and god and the like they HATED the religious guy. They also hated the gay tech I sent out there. Sorry, you guys can spew about how you're a NP and deserve this and that but if a gay kid tried to join you'd bounce him out.

What goes around comes around bastids.
 
2006-07-12 06:17:26 AM
bmasso: Boy, who ever knew socialists were so money-smart?

Why would "socialists" be worried about revenue, sparky? Do you see how your knee jerks like that, yet it signifies nothing?

/I didn't think so
//why do righties hate internal consistency?
 
2006-07-12 06:19:05 AM
castufari: The United Way.

Worst. Farking. "Nonprofit". Evar.

/hands down
 
2006-07-12 06:20:39 AM
FarkmeBlind: [Unless they're gay or non-xtian]



I thought the just had to believe in a "higher power" or something?
 
2006-07-12 06:24:12 AM
FMB,
So......,
I'd guess that this is actually all about the gheys for you then, no?

Well as amusing as it is to watch your hatefest vs. the BSA for not lovin' the gheys like you think they should - it's past my bedtime.

Good night/whatever to all -
and please remember toleration implies... toleration.
Bhu bhuy.
 
2006-07-12 06:24:51 AM
log_jammin: I thought the just had to believe in a "higher power" or something?

Nope, Cthlhu, Pan, FSM, Zeus, and I'm not sure about Allah. All not "good enough" for the BSA.

/ooh, porn's done
 
2006-07-12 06:26:58 AM
bmasso
And just as the Catholic Church can not be forced or coerced by the gov't to admit women or practicing homosexuals into the priesthood, or forced or coerced to decide that gay sex is a GOOD thing, neither can a pan-religious group like the Boy Scouts be forced or coerced to change it's charter or principles.

No one is forcing them to change their charter, the city is just saying that if they discriminate, they don't meet the city's requirements for charity access to the marina. Even then, they aren't being prevented from using the marina, they're just being charged the same rate as any other private organization.

I can remember when this whole gay discrimination stuff started. I was, at the time, a member of a group affiliated with the Boy Scouts called Explorers. We almost lost our sponsoring corporation because they couldn't get away with supporting a group that discriminated...but it was just *so* important to the Boy Scout leadership to press their ideology on everyone. Who cares how many kids lost opportunities they might never have otherwise had when you've got a political point to make, eh?

Thankfully, the Explorers organizers kept their perspective and formed Learning For Life, a non-discriminatory organization, because they were more interested in serving the kids than some political agenda. I hope everybody who's pissed off at the scouts in this thread and can afford it would donate at least a couple bucks to this group, I can tell you from first hand that they'll do good things with it. As opposed to the Scouts.
 
2006-07-12 06:27:51 AM
bmasso: I'd guess that this is actually all about the gheys for you then, no?

Yes, which is why I brought up other considerations other than teh ghey. No matter how many times you tell me what I'm saying, you still don't get it. That's okay, I'm not exactly surprised.

and please remember toleration implies... toleration.

Tolerance of intolerance is asinine. Thanks for the reminder.
 
2006-07-12 06:30:12 AM
I have some Tolerance left for this thread....but not much
 
2006-07-12 06:30:16 AM
It's funny, because the guy also worked for the show "Seventh Heaven".

/obvious
 
2006-07-12 06:31:35 AM
I wonder if the gay folks notice that whenever they push the issue, they lose. Bigtime. Look at the gay marriage stuff, out of how many state votes on the matter, something like one state allows gay marriage? Even NY nixed the notion.
 
2006-07-12 06:33:15 AM
Detroit_Bob
I wonder if the gay folks notice that whenever they push the issue, they lose. Bigtime.

The big losers in all of this are the kids who can't join their friends in the scouts because they believe differently or are attracted to different people, and the kids who are in the scouts but will be denied opportunities they would otherwise have because the leaders of their group are more concerned with making political statements than helping kids.
 
2006-07-12 06:36:31 AM
mrexcess: they would otherwise have because the leaders of their group are more concerned with making political statements than helping kids.


Thats a very good point.

but is it all political? Even a stupid firmly held belief is still a firmly held belief.
 
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