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(Some Guy)   Vegetarian diet can lead to strokes, heart attack, diabetes and other fatal diseases. Suck it, hippies   (newindpress.com ) divider line
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20886 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jun 2006 at 11:14 PM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-06-26 01:13:53 AM  
entropic_existence: I balanced diet that includes meat and everything in moderation is the BEST thing you can do for your body.

meat is not even close to being part of the best thing you can do to your body.
 
2006-06-26 01:14:00 AM  
And since when did that site have any credibility? Front page news is about a boob implant junkie who thinks flat chested women are unattractive, and lots of footba... soccer crap.

/where's my damned beer?
//no, the one made from a cow...
 
2006-06-26 01:15:00 AM  
Tofu consumption has also been linked to alzheimers.

http://www.vegsource.com/harris/brain_aging.htm

"In comparing the dietary habits and health of the Japanese-American men in the study group between 1965 and 1993, Dr. Lon White said the scientists found "a significant link between tofu consumption during midlife and loss of mental ability and even loss of brain weight."
 
2006-06-26 01:15:14 AM  
and you dont need supplements, you just need to remember to eat tons of fruits and vegetables, raw if possible. And certain fruits and vegetables give you the nutrients you are missing. lots of tofu, avocado, bean sprouts, etc
 
2006-06-26 01:16:03 AM  
jordan_lund: Tofu consumption has also been linked to alzheimers.

considering they havent a clue to what exactly alzheimers is, and how to treat it, I'd say linking anything to it is pure speculation.
 
2006-06-26 01:16:35 AM  
entropic_existence: The traditional inuit diet consists pretty much exclusively of meat and animal products. A little difficult to grow vegetables in the arctic after all :)

When I lived in the Arctic, I subsisted on a meat-only diet for a month due to its availability (buying seal and char and caribou from the Inuvialuit as opposed to paying $9 for a rotting head of romaine from the Northern Store during the dark season.) I have to say, I have never felt better.
 
2006-06-26 01:16:55 AM  
Big Al
meat is not even close to being part of the best thing you can do to your body.

Bullshiat. See those sharp teeth hanging down your face? Notice how your eyes face forward instead of to the side? Have you ever researched any high-caloric survival foods throughout history?

What do all of these things point to? That we are evolved and designed to consume meat.
 
2006-06-26 01:17:02 AM  
TheDokta: Can't say I've ever met a vegetarian who had even visited a rural area, let alone owned a farm...

because people own farms to make $$$, and the easiest way to make $$$$ is to raise livestock. Good try, though
 
2006-06-26 01:18:43 AM  
mrexcess: That we are evolved and designed to consume meat.

that has nothing to do with whether it was NATURAL to begin with. You can evolve to eat other humans. Care to try?

They point to nothing. You dont need sharp teeth just for meat, infact Id bet that nuts and some vegetables are a lot harder to chew than meat.

But thanks again for another person showing that they would rather still be neandertals
 
2006-06-26 01:20:28 AM  
To those who have bashed me for saying that meat farms aren't natural and have said that I'm being hypocritical since I don't own a farm, you've got to put things in perspective:

1. No, I don't own a farm. That's not my place in society, and I'll freely admit I do not forage for food. I will also admit that farms are not natural. However, with such a large population to sustain, the only thing we can do is to farm. No one, besides those maybe in the midwest (US speaking), can actually fully establish themselves into the farming business. Point being, too many people to have individual farms, and it's impossible to make societal progress without them.

2. That being said, it's plenty possible to make societal progress while reducing the impact that farms have by not eating crops that use such an extravagent (sp?) use of water. While not technically a crop, I consider meat just this. Soybeans have a far less noticable impact. I remember in high school the rule of ten: Each time you move up the food chain, you need ten times more energy, water and land, so that would put meat at using 10 times of each in comparison to plants. That's a rough figure, but it's around where it stands.

3. Vegetarianism, for some, is about making less of an impact. Sure, we live in cities and use many resources that meat-eaters do as well. We're not perfect, nor have I ever heard any vegetarian claim to be. We could make less of an impact by moving out to Kansas or somewhere around there and farming our own stuff. But since we wouldn't be contributing to human society, it would be just as useful to the world if we shot ourselves. Yes, that's harsh, but my point is that vegetarianism is about balancing human society with the enviroment in a consciously easy way of doing it.That being said, dietarily (sp?) speaking, we make less of an impact energy-wise, land-wise and water-wise than meat-eaters, and that is impossible to deny.

4. Also, no one else has refuted any other argument I've said. That shows something.

Big Al:this seriously must be a joke. are you going to compare the amount of land required to raise cattle and other livestock, feed them, give them fresh water, to growing vegetables and soy beans? seriously, that is the worst argument, ever

Why is that a bad argument? It's easily comparable, the differences are drastic, and by not eating meat we're saving landspace, energy and water. It's not a bad argument, and since you've shown no reason for it to be a bad argument, you're just trolling.

/to those who argued my points and did not insult me: thank you
//refreshing to see actual debate
 
2006-06-26 01:21:52 AM  

TheDokta:

/Humans are omnivores. Not eating meat is unnatural.


Driving your car to work, using a cellphone, using the internet, operating a microwave, flying on a plane and using indoor plumbing, lighting is unnatural as well Mr. Hypocrite.
 
2006-06-26 01:22:00 AM  
Much land that produces cattle feed produces it as a byproduct of corn syrup. So, in practice, cattle feed requires little, if any, land.

How can you compare the ammount of water used nourishing cattle with the ammount of water needed for the production with a comparable yield of any vegetable crop?

/Cheeseburger, plain, medium well please
//I can leg press nearly half a ton.
 
2006-06-26 01:25:39 AM  
As usual, everyone seems so rational.
 
2006-06-26 01:25:57 AM  
quadropheniac: and by not eating meat we're saving landspace, energy and water. It's not a bad argument, and since you've shown no reason for it to be a bad argument, you're just trolling.

ummmm, I think you read my comments wrong. read it again
 
2006-06-26 01:26:53 AM  
LukeA: So, in practice, cattle feed requires little, if any, land.

LOL! tell that to the south american rainforests and the forests in America. Youve really got to be kidding
 
2006-06-26 01:26:59 AM  
Big Al
that has nothing to do with whether it was NATURAL to begin with.

Call me crazy, but a brief glimpse around the natural world would seem to indicate that consumption of meat is extremely common.

You dont need sharp teeth just for meat, infact Id bet that nuts and some vegetables are a lot harder to chew than meat.

Uhhhhh, whatever dude. Go ask any biologist why humans have sharp teeth in addition to the mashing variety, in stark contrast to every known herbivore on the planet.

But thanks again for another person showing that they would rather still be neandertals

The recent theories are that our ancestors and neanderthals co-existed, but not that we descended from them.

One thing I've yet to hear any disagreement about (aside from yourself) is that both evolved to consume meat for fuel. It's sort of, ya know, why we can digest it...why it smells good...why we even appear to have specific taste sensors for meat flavors. Try giving meat to a true herbivore, it won't eat it, and if it does, it will provide them with almost no nutritional value.
 
2006-06-26 01:34:00 AM  
mrexcess: Call me crazy, but a brief glimpse around the natural world would seem to indicate that consumption of meat is extremely common.

common =/= natural

Uhhhhh, whatever dude. Go ask any biologist why humans have sharp teeth in addition to the mashing variety, in stark contrast to every known herbivore on the planet.

and yet there are still debates among scientists on how we evolved and from whom

Again, just because a branch of humans that we evolved from ate meat doesnt make it natural, it means we decided to go against nature and eat meat, but our bodies adjusted

The recent theories are that our ancestors and neanderthals co-existed, but not that we descended from them.

it was a joke and a comparison to show you that we should have evolved from that hunter-gatherer type diet and thinking

One thing I've yet to hear any disagreement about (aside from yourself) is that both evolved to consume meat for fuel. It's sort of, ya know, why we can digest it...why it smells good...why we even appear to have specific taste sensors for meat flavors. Try giving meat to a true herbivore, it won't eat it, and if it does, it will provide them with almost no nutritional value.

it smells good? no. you have whatever taste sensors that you grew up with. never grew up eating meat? congrats, you have no urge to eat it, and no taste for it.

and comparing an advanced species like humans to something like a simple herbivore is ridiculous. once again, they have branched off to evolve to whatever they ate because of their surroundings. humans werent born with sharp teeth and spleens. they evolved because they chose to take that path.

So in closing, because this is a pointless debate, calling a vegetarian diet unnatural is as ridiculous as saying it is unnatural to do any of the countless things including sitting infront of the computer surfing the internets
 
2006-06-26 01:35:02 AM  
mmmmmmmeat-gazm!j

/currently nibbling a bqq pork tenderloin
//no regrets
 
2006-06-26 01:35:40 AM  
www.calacanis.com
 
2006-06-26 01:36:43 AM  
Not finding where I went wrong, Big Al.
 
2006-06-26 01:38:34 AM  
Again, just because a branch of humans that we evolved from ate meat doesnt make it natural, it means we decided to go against nature and eat meat, but our bodies adjusted


That's got to be one of the most stupid things I've ever read.


Ask any biologist/botanist. We are clearly carnivores. Just because it's possible for YOU to survive on vegetables (note.. not GRASS or LEAVES like TRUE herbivores because you don't have the biological plumbing for it) doesn't mean it's wrong for the rest of us to eat what suits us.
 
2006-06-26 01:40:02 AM  
I always like one of my favorite steps in human evolution: eating cooked meat. Apparently, when we started cooking meat, that meant that our jaws didn't need to be as strong. So, that meant more room for our brains.
 
2006-06-26 01:40:33 AM  
Big Al
common =/= natural

"Common in the animal kingdom" = natural

Again, just because a branch of humans that we evolved from ate meat doesnt make it natural

Yes it does.

humans werent born with sharp teeth and spleens.

Uhhhh, whaaa? Humans aren't born with spleens and sharp teeth, we only grow them if we need them? WTF? That's out and out crazy talk, of course we're born with spleens and sharp teeth (though, of course, those only come out after we're passed the milk-only stage).

calling a vegetarian diet unnatural

Is absolutely correct when referring to the biology of homo sapiens sapiens. Our species is omnivorous and biologically, evolutionarily designed to consume meat.
 
2006-06-26 01:40:58 AM  
MrExcess,

Whether we're designed to be omnivores or not, is not really the point of vegetarianism. Among the other life forms on this planet, we have the unique ability to decide not to do something we're quite capable of doing. We don't have to eat meat if we don't want to. And the decision to be a vegetarian is just that--a conscious, reasoned, decision.

Give any omnivorous animal a leftover turkey leg, and it will eat it, if it's hungry. Give it to a vegetarian, and they won't eat it. Is that wasteful, since it's already dead? Perhaps so. But it's a decision born out of reason, whether right or wrong. It's not biological.

Also, you can't use your special meat taste sensors unless you've been trained at the special Scientology SuperPower Center.
 
2006-06-26 01:41:37 AM  
Big Al: Call me crazy, but a brief glimpse around the natural world would seem to indicate that consumption of meat is extremely common.

common =/= natural


I think this alone shows us that Big Al has no _rational_ reason for why meat eating is bad.

Again, just because a branch of humans that we evolved from ate meat doesnt make it natural, it means we decided to go against nature and eat meat, but our bodies adjusted

We _went_against_nature_? Seriously, how is this not the equivalent to some neo-pagan Gaia nutcase saying that we've offended the Spirit of the Earth, she She will take her vengance on us all?

Incidentally, there's *significant* portions (if not the majority) of the population of China, India, Africa, Sri Lanka, etc that eat a large amount of meat. I dunno what kool-aid you've been drinking to think that meat isn't a common staple in just about every culture that, y'know _lives_around_animals_...


If you're not a troll, you're one of the stupidest veggies I've ever heard.

/knew a lot of veggies from non-US cultures
//none were as stupid as Big Al
///some of the discovered they liked meat once they were in a community that didn't have a significant vegetarian population
////at least one I remember became a total carnivore
 
2006-06-26 01:42:06 AM  
Big Al: this seriously must be a joke. are you going to compare the amount of land required to raise cattle and other livestock, feed them, give them fresh water, to growing vegetables and soy beans? seriously, that is the worst argument, ever

Thank you for not reading the article. You missed out on a well written, thoughtful, and coherent work that linked the relatively modern energy crisis to the Green Revolution, which is the last link in a chain of events all revolved around a single goal: Not starving to death.

But to cut to the chase, since you are clearly ADD, it takes roughly 10 calories of fossil fuel to grow and process one calorie of a food crop. Your tofu is literally made out of oil pumped from the middle east.

By comparison, a cow eats 10 calories of grass to produce one calorie of meat. Sound like a familiar number? And grass does not require the intense fertilization that the cereals do.

So, you're damned unless you just stop eating.

/But make sure your beef is grassfed.
 
2006-06-26 01:43:37 AM  
Big Al

it smells good? no. you have whatever taste sensors that you grew up with. never grew up eating meat? congrats, you have no urge to eat it, and no taste for it.

To you, maybe. That's a matter of personal taste. It's NOT because you lack the scent receptors.

And just because you don't WANT to eat meat doesn't mean you don't have a highly developed digestive system that's just perfect for making the most of it.
 
2006-06-26 01:44:19 AM  
Chilton: So what you're saying, then, is that vegetarianism is, in truth, the unnatural choice. What the Xenu was with the scientology reference, by the way?
 
2006-06-26 01:47:11 AM  
Big Al
that has nothing to do with whether it was NATURAL to begin with.


Actually, as far as the mainstream scientific community is concerned, eating vegatables (and sweets) is a learned behavior.

In other words, we humans naturally lean toward meats. Which fits with any empiracal data I've ever experienced. Who ever heard of a 4 yr old kid who loved his broccoli and refused to eat his chicken? Rare if ever.

Meanwhile, I loves me most any veggie (my fave part of Thanksgiving as a kid was the rare treat: brussel sprouts) but thats because my Dad is a lax vegatarian, and I'd been fed a lot of veggies since I was an infant. My Brother is the same.

Eating meat may be brutal, and you may argue that we can move past it, but you can't argue with any real evidence that it's not natural.
 
2006-06-26 01:48:04 AM  
It says a lot that the very Weeners was about the smugness of vegetarians. I'm vegetarian, and when people find out, I'm often immediately faced with a barrage of smug, self-righteous carnivorous proselytizing. I personally hate having to justify my diet to these people. I never try to convince others not to eat meat, yet people are constantly trying to convince me that I'm wrong for not doing it. I prefer to go about my life, and let others go about theirs, as do most vegetarians.
 
2006-06-26 01:48:10 AM  
Plenty of vegitarian primates have sharp teeth... they use them for vegies/fruits...
 
2006-06-26 01:48:30 AM  
mrexcess: Chilton: So what you're saying, then, is that vegetarianism is, in truth, the unnatural choice. What the Xenu was with the scientology reference, by the way?

See, I have no problem if people say "I choose to be vegetarian because it makes me feel better". It's when the BS about being "natural" and all the pseudo-scientitic crap comes out that it all starts getting very annoying.

Kinda like people who believe in God.

"Why do you believe in God" (or deities, etc)

Non-annoying answers:
"Because it makes sense to me." or "I feel their presence every day." or "I have faith."

Annoying answers include: Appeals to authority; Irreducable complexity; claims that is the oldest and therefore most likely to be right, etc.
 
2006-06-26 01:49:48 AM  
Much land that produces cattle feed produces it as a byproduct of corn syrup.

Just to try and encourage some of the hippies (vegetarian or not) to actually read the article I linked, compared to corn-fed beef, the author is only mildly upset about corn. And he calls corn the single biggest mistake humanity ever made. And continues to make.

/And wheat.
//And rice.
///Cereal is such an unpretty word.
 
2006-06-26 01:49:49 AM  
I mean, I don't harass them for eating meat, but as soon as my vegetarianism comes up, I know I'll get harassed for it.

Its cause youre a freak.

/J/K
//kinda
 
2006-06-26 01:51:38 AM  
Yes, MrExcess. It is quite unnatural. In a similar fashion, me not beating the bejeezus out of my neighbor earlier today, because his idiot kid was peeing in my lawn, again, was unnatural. And talking through my magic metal box about what to eat and not eat, while I drink something made by chemists in the fine town of Waco, Tx., is also probably not what I was designed to do. I dare say, less than 10% of my daily routine is completely unnatural.

The Scientologists (as per recent Fark news item and thread) believe that humans have more than 5 senses, including the ability to perceive the weight of objects, guess the number of gummy bears in my pocket, and some other weird crap like that. I imagine if you take their class, you'll also get special meat taste powers as well, or at least I'd hope you would for what the course costs.
 
2006-06-26 01:52:34 AM  
LOL. I guess I found out the hard way that the phrase f*rst c*mment turns into "Weeners."
 
2006-06-26 01:53:57 AM  
(See: ribeye steak with sauteed mushrooms and onions)

Im starving, we got any steak with mushrooms in there?

R&F are the best.

Oh and Big Al do yourself a favor and shut up, either you are an idiot or the worst troll of all time. Take your pick.
 
2006-06-26 01:56:07 AM  
quadropheniac, you are exactly the person who most needs to read The Oil We Eat.

I want you to read this article so badly, I'm posting the link again. It even pops.
 
2006-06-26 01:56:08 AM  
misterslippers

humans are indeed omnivores, but these days, we can look past what we're SUPPOSED to be, and look at what we ARE. We're smart enough to put a man on the moon, surf the web, and build skyscrapers.


This is not even a remotely compelling argument for vegetarianism.

For those of you whose argument is 'humans are built to eat meat' or 'humans are hunter gatherers' and all that jazz, honestly, look around and see that we're no longer in a natural environment and that we have choices and options that our primitive ancestors didn't have, such as supplements.

And the fact that you need to have all those special "supplements" and/or take so much care choosing foods on a vegan diet, rather than than just eating a balanced diet of solely natural sources of fruits, vegetables *and* meat, should tell any objective person everything they need to know about the subject.
 
2006-06-26 01:56:32 AM  
Big Al, hold on while I go eat all the plants in them rainforests, then ill presume to eat all the animals that lived there. When I get back, ill tell you which tastes better.
 
2006-06-26 01:56:58 AM  
Oh I don't know Big Al has gotten quite a few hits.
 
2006-06-26 01:58:22 AM  
Big Al

yes of course, a plant has actual flesh, a brain, a nervous system, bones, can feel pain, etc.

the ultimate strawman


You still haven't explained why there's a difference. Either way, something living has to die.

Have you ever swatted a mosquito ? Did you consider that "barbaric" ? Where do insects fit into your worldview ? How about crustaceans ? Fish ?

what do you mean unnatural?

It means that if you weren't guided by the "morality" somebody has indoctrinated you with, you would eat meat, because that's what your biology wants you to do and because that's the most efficient way to fuel your body.

It means that if you don't eat meat, you need to go well and truly out of your way to achieve a balanced and nutricious diet from solely non-meat sources. Modern society makes this a relatively painless task, but nature does not.

you were not designed to eat meat.

I wasn't "designed" at all. However, my entire digestive tract, from lips to arsehole, has evolved to most efficiently process meat rather than plants. Yours is the same.

Your brain might be trying to tell you you're a herbivore, but your guts say you're an omnivore.

meat is not even close to being part of the best thing you can do to your body.

Why is my body so efficient at dealing with something you (baselessly) assert is only bad for it ?
Why is a vegan diet so much more work than an omnivorous diet ?

because people own farms to make $$$, and the easiest way to make $$$$ is to raise livestock. Good try, though

My point - which apparently sailed far over your head - was that vegans insisting people should only eat meat if they hunt, capture and slaughter the animals themselves, while being quite happy to benefit from high-intensity farming and artificial nutrition supplements most of them wouldn't even have heard of, let alone be able to reproduce, is just a teensy bit hypocritical.

that has nothing to do with whether it was NATURAL to begin with.

Yes, it does. That's the whole farkin' point. If it wasn't *natural* we would be physically incapable of deriving any nutritional value from meat at all, like herbivores.

Humans have been eating meat longer than they have been humans. Eating meat is as natural as farking and drinking.

You can evolve to eat other humans.

We're already evolved to eat other humans - they're made out of meat (although there are other reasons why cannibalism is a bad idea).

I guarantee that cannibalism will keep you alive a lot longer (and in better condition) on the side of a snowed-in mountain after a plane crash than crates full of lettuce and tomatoes will. Although your psychological state probably won't hold up as well as your physical one.
 
2006-06-26 02:00:52 AM  
Tubercular Ox: But make sure your beef is grassfed.

Not grass-fed, grass-finished. Big diff at the feed lots. Just ask the e.coli.
 
2006-06-26 02:01:14 AM  
misterslippers

Driving your car to work, using a cellphone, using the internet, operating a microwave, flying on a plane and using indoor plumbing, lighting is unnatural as well Mr. Hypocrite.


Really ? Which part of doing those things will inevitably kill me unless I take extraordinary precautions ?
 
2006-06-26 02:02:28 AM  
Chilton
In a similar fashion, me not beating the bejeezus out of my neighbor earlier today, because his idiot kid was peeing in my lawn, again, was unnatural.

Indeed! But in that case, the negative impact of behaving naturally is apparent enough that I can understand avoiding it. Can such a case be made against the consumption of meat, I wonder?

The Scientologists (as per recent Fark news item and thread) believe that humans have more than 5 senses, including the ability to perceive the weight of objects, guess the number of gummy bears in my pocket, and some other weird crap like that.

Oh dear, I missed that. Nevertheless, the evidence that human beings inherit a taste for meat, and a biological ability to use that meat very very efficiently as fuel is pretty strong indeed.
 
2006-06-26 02:02:57 AM  
Next time just take it out of the package and eat it, tastes good?
Try raw Rhubarb. I hear is wonderful if it's not cooked.
 
2006-06-26 02:05:43 AM  
40below: Not grass-fed, grass-finished. Big diff at the feed lots. Just ask the e.coli.

Hah, the author of the article doesn't know such terminology. He has to go on for half a sentence every time he mentions (and fully qualifies) beef. And he could have just said "grass finished"

/Had to look it up.
//Embarassed.
 
2006-06-26 02:06:00 AM  
TheDokta
Driving your car to work?
 
2006-06-26 02:07:01 AM  
I free range raise my own chicken, ducks, turkeys and sheep for food. I buy my pig from a free range farmer and finish the processing after getting the carcass back from the 3rd generation butcher I go to. And I eat raw salted pork on occasion. Nothing tastes better than your homegorwn food.

/was a vegetarian for 7 years. Much healthier now.
//homesteader
 
2006-06-26 02:07:12 AM  
Jurodan: Next time just take it out of the package and eat it, tastes good?
Try raw Rhubarb. I hear is wonderful if it's not cooked.


Avoid the leaves though.

Then again, my parents used to grow rhubarb every year, and they never ate it raw. Then again, they had a ton and went through a process of cooking then storing it (they were raised by one-gen-off-the-farm depression-era parents themselves, so had a lot of "penny-saving" habits that they personally probably didn't need to be so radical about).
 
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