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(BBC)   What do you do with questionable demand for a new, giant airliner? Why, raise the price, of course   (news.bbc.co.uk) divider line 220
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17410 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2006 at 1:07 PM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-06-23 10:02:14 AM
An idea of mine:

An airline or sister-company of an airline that offers an entire plane of first-class seating. Not necessarily "free champagne and hookers" first-class, but:

- Two row, two seats per row seating with plenty of legroom
- LCD TVs in the seats (much like JetBlue now)
- WiFi and/or RJ45 connection for high-speed internet, along with a 110v plug in each seat

They could use the same Airbus A320 that they've been using, just change out the seats and add some options. They could price the seats out at a bit above economy-airfare, but less than first-class seating for regular airlines.

I guarantee they'd fill up every plane on every route. Businessmen, large folks, and those that value comfort would gladly shell out another 50-100 per ticket to avoid cramped-quarters and gain internet access for the trip.

As long as proper business methods are in place and smart decisions are made about routes and terminals, it'd be gold.
 
2006-06-23 10:50:42 AM
Pooter: I guarantee they'd fill up every plane on every route. Businessmen, large folks, and those that value comfort would gladly shell out another 50-100 per ticket to avoid cramped-quarters and gain internet access for the trip.

I hardly think 50-100 dollard would cover the difference (and from what I've seen, large folk, especially large americans, don't feel they should have to pay more, they just ooze all over their neighbors without care).

My trips to/from Chicago and Vancouver cost ~$800 in coach, it would be over $3000 in first class. Do you actually think 50-100 dollars is a realistic view of what these luxury seats would cost? I think not.
 
2006-06-23 12:16:01 PM
Personally, I can't wait for this puppy to roll out:
www.boeing.com

As someone that already has over 100,000 BSMs (butt in seat miles) this year, I can't wait for all the ammenities and comfort this baby is supposed to have!

/In Calgary now, in Houston this evening, in Calgary Monday, in Houston next weekend, etc, etc....
 
2006-06-23 12:19:26 PM
Pooter: I guarantee they'd fill up every plane on every route. Businessmen, large folks, and those that value comfort would gladly shell out another 50-100 per ticket to avoid cramped-quarters and gain internet access for the trip


Yep, I've been saying this for years now. I'd shell out 20-30% more above standard econo-fare. Screw the 'fine dining' grub and even free booze and just give me the comfort and a few extra ammenities. Luckily, now that I'm back up to Platinum with Continental, I'm almost always upgraded to First Class, but having to buy the economy fares and HOPING for an upgrade that sometimes doesn't come sucks.
 
2006-06-23 01:00:49 PM
Hah. Socialists.
 
2006-06-23 01:09:56 PM
WTF are they thinking?

/they are so screwed.
 
2006-06-23 01:11:53 PM
What a second, you're delaying the delivery dates AND you're raising the price?

You know, I didn't do too hot in my college business courses, but I'm thinking that's a bad move. A real bad move.
 
2006-06-23 01:12:16 PM
Has any other plane faired so badly as to provoke derision?

Hmmm..


www.buckminster.info
 
2006-06-23 01:12:51 PM
Raising your prices isn't always a bad way to get more customers. At my work, we used to have a firewall that we would sell. We kept getting potential customers calling up looking for quotes, but very few people ever bought them. We upped the price (By a lot.. more than doubled it, actually) and now they're selling like hotcakes. Apparently, these people calling were getting quotes from lots of ISPs, and ours were so much lower that they figured our product must be trash.

That probably doesn't apply to this particular situation, but it brought this to mind.
 
2006-06-23 01:13:00 PM
What are the problems?
 
2006-06-23 01:13:15 PM
I don't like to fly, but I'll do it when necessary. But these new huge planes... I don't think so. Maybe 20 years from now when none of them has crashed, but until then, I'll stay in the "smaller" jumbo jets.
 
2006-06-23 01:16:07 PM
Why are airlines getting larger planes. The last severl times I flew, the airlines put me on smaller planes (M90) because there wasn't enough demand to fill larger planes. That was just for demestic though.
 
2006-06-23 01:16:54 PM
upload.wikimedia.org

Much better aircraft (the MD-12)

Dreamliner is the sort of name you get for letting retards (the sheeple) choose your aircraft's name.

As for the A388, I shall call it the Big Pig or the Euro Cow. I like Airbus, the A333 for example is beaitiful, and the A346 is stunningly elegant.

But nothing compares to the 707-320I or the McDonnel Douglas, MD-11. Those plane have STYLE!
 
2006-06-23 01:17:17 PM
Bo 'n Luke: I don't like to fly, but I'll do it when necessary. But these new huge planes... I don't think so. Maybe 20 years from now when none of them has crashed, but until then, I'll stay in the "smaller" jumbo jets.


If anything, they are probably safer.

Airbus and Boeing have two different strategies. Basically, Boeing is banking on more smaller planes with more frequent flights...and Airbus is banking on larger planes with fewer hubs....as you can tell, Boeing took the smart routw on this one...


/mommy worked for Boeing
 
2006-06-23 01:17:41 PM
Heavy Jet Indicator? More like Heavy DEBT Indicator!!



/sorry ICAO. Wake Turbulence category just doesn't sound the same
//Bhwahahahahahaha!
 
2006-06-23 01:18:05 PM
news.xinhuanet.com

mwuuhhwhahahahahaha!!!

/sayonara, suckers!
 
2006-06-23 01:18:27 PM
Did anyone actually read the article?


It was a regular, planned, annual price increase. The same kind that Airbus and Boeing do every year.


Non-story.



Oh and I think it's funny that people denounce Airbus as socialist, when Boeing gets just as much Corporate Welfare from the USA as Airbus does from Europe.

I guess it's not socialism if you call it Capitalist Corporate Welfare, though. Silly me.
 
2006-06-23 01:19:18 PM
You should check out www.maxjet.com they are the ones pushing only business class flights.
 
2006-06-23 01:19:32 PM
Personally, I think each plane should build a soundproof cabin in the rear of the plane for parents with their goddamn screaming crotch-droppings. Last thing I need when I'm flying to Glasgow is little baby junior son of a biatch reminding me why I wish I was born deaf.
 
2006-06-23 01:19:33 PM
Bo 'n Luke: I don't like to fly, but I'll do it when necessary. But these new huge planes... I don't think so. Maybe 20 years from now when none of them has crashed, but until then, I'll stay in the "smaller" jumbo jets.


The C-5 is bigger and they've been flying those 35 years. This is just the first one that's tried to make a military transport sized plane into a passenger plane.
 
2006-06-23 01:20:05 PM
Pooter:
"An idea of mine:

An airline or sister-company of an airline that offers an entire plane of first-class seating. Not necessarily "free champagne and hookers" first-class..."


Ask, and ye shall receive.
 
2006-06-23 01:20:45 PM
Well, in their defense, from the Wikipedia article on the popular 787...

The 787-8 variant was priced at a list price of $US 120 million per aircraft, surprising the industry, which was expecting a much higher price tag. There have been two price increases since launch and a 787-8 currently sells for $US 148-157.5 million.

That's what, a 20-30% increase compared to a 5% one? Seems like 'everyone does it' is indeed the truth in this case.

bens99: Why are airlines getting larger planes. The last severl times I flew, the airlines put me on smaller planes (M90) because there wasn't enough demand to fill larger planes. That was just for demestic though.

The A380s aren't going to be flying you from Rochester NY to Buffalo NY. They'll be on the routes that are always overbooked - LAX to Tokyo and Australia, stuff like that.

The idea is that, as busy airports like LAX, Heathrow, etc. have only a set number of (entirely taken) landing slots per day, the A380 lets you get more passengers into the same landing slot.

Unfortunately, the size of the thing means the wake turbulence is so bad they have to lengthen the space between planes... removing the advantage. Heh.
 
2006-06-23 01:20:46 PM
bens99: Why are airlines getting larger planes. The last severl times I flew, the airlines put me on smaller planes (M90) because there wasn't enough demand to fill larger planes. That was just for demestic though.


Boeing seems to realize this trend, but Airbus lives in a fantasyland where people like to be herded like cattle on the largest planes possible.

/I did enjoy Jet Blue though....favorite airline to fly
 
2006-06-23 01:23:11 PM
Pooter

An airline or sister-company of an airline that offers an entire plane of first-class seating. Not necessarily "free champagne and hookers" first-class, but:

Silverjet, MAXjet, oes,...

Also, the selling prices for commercial aircraft are a protected secret and rarely anything like the list price. Airbus must sell more planes to cover its massive startup costs. They're going to be pricing these things to fill the pipeline, and so far it looks like they're doing okay.
 
2006-06-23 01:23:30 PM
Pooter

Look at an airplane company called EOS. It only travels from New York to London. I have no idea how its rates compare with Virgin or British Airways.

There is also a Brazilian airframer. JetBlue has expanded its fleet from the A320 to offerings from this other company.
 
2006-06-23 01:23:49 PM
Economy of scale, people. Some smaller airlines couldn't wait past the delays and cancelled their orders to go buy from other providers, or are invoking their contract clauses to reduce order amounts because late planes are less useful to them when they have to buy new additional models or retrofit their current posessions to fill the gap that's stretching between when it was expected to be done and when they're actually going to go on the market.

It cost millions to develop and test the new body and structure. Those costs are fixed, so they must be recouped somehow. With less planes being sold, the only way to recoup those costs is to raise the prices on the planes that are still on order. This is why it is universally more efficient to make and sell a million of something than one of it - you've already paid for the development and production line, so each additional item made divides the cost of those already laid-out investments across more and more sales.

It's not unexpected at all.
 
2006-06-23 01:23:54 PM
MithrandirBooga: Oh and I think it's funny that people denounce Airbus as socialist, when Boeing gets just as much Corporate Welfare from the USA as Airbus does from Europe.

I guess it's not socialism if you call it Capitalist Corporate Welfare, though. Silly me.



You are absolutely correct about that one. In fact, John Kerry publicly mused that we should just put Boeing on the dole and make it official seeing as how we subsidize them anyway...of course people called him a commie for it, but than they turn around and do it anyway.
 
2006-06-23 01:24:36 PM
ElRonHubbardsBalls: Boeing seems to realize this trend, but Airbus lives in a fantasyland where people like to be herded like cattle on the largest planes possible.


It struck me from their marketing and comments from their management that Airbus decided to build the A380 simply to say they have the biggest airliner. It reminded me of a Soviets always trying to one up the US. Boeing, on the other, made their choices from economics and not nationalism.
 
2006-06-23 01:24:57 PM
selfabuse: same thing in the legal profession. You charge too low, corporate/insurance clients think your firm must be desperate and are probably offering crappy legal services (and crappy mediocre lawyers who like to post on Fark all the time).

But, I'm also thinking this ain't the same thing. I'm not too familiar with the aviation industry, but isn't airbus known as a premium product. As opposed to buying some cheapo Russian built plane, I'm paying a lot already for the quality of Airbus. I don't need to get price gouged, as well, just because Airbus knows I have a demand to fill and really the only other competition is Boeing (who doesn't have any current equivalent yet)

"I usually get kissed before I get farked." - Gordon Gecko
 
2006-06-23 01:25:56 PM
GavinTheAlmighty

Personally, I think each plane should build a soundproof cabin in the rear of the plane for parents with their goddamn screaming crotch-droppings.

Babies scream on airplanes because they can't deal with the cabin pressure changes as well as we can, nor articulate that they feel like their heads are going to implode/explode.

They'll usually start crying as the plane begins to descend from cruise, and the pilot begins to adjust the pressure.

/once flew with a cold, dumb mistake, and was acutely aware of all pressure changes during the flight.
 
2006-06-23 01:26:06 PM
"Like every industry, we raise our list prices each year,"

I have a small business and I only raise my prices when my suppliers raise them. Last year, 80% of my prices didn't go up. I'm selling more stuff and making more money than last year so far.
 
2006-06-23 01:27:00 PM
I've seen how this pig is put together. Parts from all over Europe and Australia get shipped by these insane supply chains. Once a week, Airbus must shut down a town right outside the final assembly plant to get the main fuselage through to name one.... Plus I don't trust much built by the French.
 
2006-06-23 01:28:35 PM
Welcome to French Economics 101!
 
2006-06-23 01:28:36 PM
List prices on airliners are like list prices on automobiles: nobody actually pays them. Every airline negotiates discounts.
 
2006-06-23 01:30:05 PM
MithrandirBooga

Oh and I think it's funny that people denounce Airbus as socialist, when Boeing gets just as much Corporate Welfare from the USA as Airbus does from Europe.

Boeing gets its share of tax breaks and bloated defense contracts, but nothing compares to the massive guarranteed loans that EADS gets. Boeing has to sell planes to make money. Airbus doesn't even have to do that.
 
2006-06-23 01:31:13 PM
As one who flys very little and is bendy as well as skinny. I just want the NO KIDS/Fatties airline. I would not need movies and radios and essesive drinks if I did'nt have to have the back of my seat hammerd by the boots of lil Jeffrey. Extra space.... hell I barely take up 3/4 of the seat I have, I only need extra space when my neighbors are oozing in to mine.

Yes, Yes, I am Evil and shallow for hating fatties and noisy kids on 6 hr flights.
 
2006-06-23 01:33:48 PM
Bens99, Majorthomb:

You're right if it was American carriers who are buying for doemstic rights. That's not the case. If I recall correctly, the customers are mostly Asian carriers. The few flights I've been on in the past years are totally filled. Routes to East Asia and India are profitable routes (oil prices aside) and the capacity is increasing every year. I think Airbus' bet on higher capacity jets is a sound idea.
 
2006-06-23 01:34:18 PM
CapitolG

I just want the NO KIDS/Fatties airline.

And no smelly tank-top wearing freaks who take off their shoes who have offensive tattoos of pigs chain-f******. Yeah, that happened to me once.
 
2006-06-23 01:34:48 PM
Darkfalz: Welcome to French Economics 101!

Straight Economics 101, actually.

Let's say it costs you $10,000,000 to develop a new plane and construct a factory to build it. It also costs you $10,000 in parts and labor to build each individual plane.

Selling one plane, the list price of that plane to simply not lose any money is $10,010,000.

Selling 10,000 planes, the list price is $11,000.

With less planes to sell, they have to raise prices on each individual plane sold to cover prerequisite costs on development and engineering that do not scale per plane constructed.

Basic stuff, really.
 
2006-06-23 01:35:47 PM
Haven't seen any evacuation tests....853 passengers off in 90 seconds. Doubt we will see it in the US. RR engines, cool, with Mercedes as part owner.
 
2006-06-23 01:36:03 PM
studebaker hoch

Babies scream on airplanes because they can't deal with the cabin pressure changes as well as we can, nor articulate that they feel like their heads are going to implode/explode.

They'll usually start crying as the plane begins to descend from cruise, and the pilot begins to adjust the pressure.

/once flew with a cold, dumb mistake, and was acutely aware of all pressure changes during the flight.


Further justification for a soundproof cabin for crying babies!
 
2006-06-23 01:38:19 PM
Airbus, a premium product? Ugh. You need to fly more.
 
2006-06-23 01:38:23 PM
GavinTheAlmighty: Further justification for a soundproof cabin for crying babies!


Screw that, just stick them in the cargo bay.
 
2006-06-23 01:39:26 PM
A whole lotta money being spent on something not that much bigger than a 747-400...

/have to fly
//hate to fly nowadays
 
2006-06-23 01:42:45 PM
Tax cuts are different then subsidies. Boeing and any other aerospace company (including Airbus) in Washington get a break on property tax. Big difference then getting loans from a government that well below market interest rates and don't have to be paid back if the airplane doesn't make profit. If the A380 fail no big deal for Airbus, if the 787 fails for Boeing.... bankruptcy.
 
2006-06-23 01:43:08 PM
Did you ever see how they build the A380. Discovery had a show on it. Trucking shipping, and barging(?) parts across europe and the lucky french get to put it together inland far from any easy access point. Totally insane planning. This raises the price of the plane just to satisfy all the member countries and their swarmey polititions.
It shows Airbus as a true model of efficiency.
Then engineering is amazing though.

/who wants to wait for 600 people to board a plane?
//can't stand waiting on 100 idiots to find a seat.
 
2006-06-23 01:45:47 PM
two words
soul plane
 
2006-06-23 01:49:22 PM
Major Thomb: It reminded me of a Soviets always trying to one up the US.


Tsar Dreamliner?

/obscure?
 
2006-06-23 01:49:44 PM
Did you ever see how they build the A380.

That's what happens when you let the politicians design the manufacturing process.
 
2006-06-23 01:49:58 PM
Time to buy your boeing stock. Actually that time was about two weeks ago, but thats alright.
 
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