"But their death was related to the fact that they put on the uniform in order to defend you and me and America. Do they not deserve some respect for that?"

I suppose.

"I am amazed at the amount of military bashing in this thread, it's freaking creepy."

What goes around comes around.

"They attacked us, they promise to do it some more. That was an act of war, they took refuge in Iraq after we ran them out of Afghanistan. Now we are running them out of Iraq. "

You're either delusional, or a liar. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Al-Qaida did not go to Iraq, that Zarcowi clown who just died asked to join Al-Qaida after the invasion.

And about 90% of all attacks on our troops are carried out by native Iraqis, not foreigners. Those 90% had nothing to do with 9/11, and have no plans to sneak into America to kill people. They're fighting an occupation, which should never have happened.

FarkLark: Truth is truth. Whatever the date.

But I understand, when you cant dispute the facts, attack the farker


List some truths, or a couple of facts.

Alphax

thats not true. zarqawi started a group and named it al qaida(sp) in iraq. and there are way more foreign fighters from syria than you think. 90% of the attacks are not from native iraqis.

SoxSweepAgain

You understand.

Why can't those on the left understand those young men did what they had to do. Murder in any form is wrong. It was wrong when they attacked us, it is wrong that we now have to remove them from the face of the earth. They make it a war, we choose to win that war.

"and there are way more foreign fighters from syria than you think. 90% of the attacks are not from native iraqis."

Why is the Pentagon lying to us then?

Alphax

dont forget iranian and syrian spies stir up the locals too. and irans foreign fighters...

HotWingConspiracy

go ask the pentagon. my knowledge is first hand. unless the interpreters, my buddy who was in tal afar, and the rest of the military was telling me a lie

whyarefartslumpy
But their death was related to the fact that they put on the uniform in order to defend you and me and America. Do they not deserve some respect for that?

They put the uniform on in order to defend America(n corporate interests abroad).

"my knowledge is first hand. unless the interpreters, my buddy who was in tal afar, and the rest of the military was telling me a lie"

I'll stick with the facts, thanks.

Alphax,

I understand your point of view, and the point of origin. Unfortunately the facts differ from what you stated. We just killed the leader of the enemy in Iraq. Usama bin Hiding is no more the leader in Iraq than George Washington is the leader here.

Facts are facts.

"90% of the attacks are not from native iraqis."

I'm going from Pentagon reports that put the number of foreigners at 8-12%.

When I read the worst of these snarky "patriotism is for suckers" type posts I picture the writer as some balding "comicbook guy" type of a loser in a soiled "Bush Sucks" tshirt too small to cover his huge gut typing away with a chilidog in one hand...

Why can't those on the left understand those young men did what they had to do. Murder in any form is wrong. It was wrong when they attacked us, it is wrong that we now have to remove them from the face of the earth. They make it a war, we choose to win that war.

Iraq attacked us?

And why can't those on the right understand that terrorists are not some monolithic entity? They're not interchangeable, and they're not a bunch of clones; one is not exactly the same as any other.

"But their death was related to the fact that they put on the uniform in order to defend you and me and America. Do they not deserve some respect for that?"

Absolutely, but:
They (wrt Iraq) were not "defending" anything.
Naming something after them is too "easy." I choose to honor them by reminding people why they should still be alive...
And don't forget why many soldiers enlist in the first place - Patriotism? eh. Money for college? getting warmer... They're poor and have no other real opportunities? *Ding!*

Alphax

then we have conflicting information. i dont know who is correct. i think i am, due to all the info we were getting when we were over there, and that operation in tal afar to seal off the syrian border. i have no idea why the pentagon would put that at those numbers or if all the info coming down to us at the ground was wrong.

"When I read the worst of these snarky "patriotism is for suckers" type posts I picture the writer as some balding "comicbook guy" type of a loser in a soiled "Bush Sucks" tshirt too small to cover his huge gut typing away with a chilidog in one hand..."

We don't want to hear about how you get off.

"We just killed the leader of the enemy in Iraq."

I'm sure a lot of people want to think he was important, to feed the illusion that progress can be made. But I suspect that the number of people taking orders from Zarqawi numbered in the dozens.

If you think that, you haven't been paying close enough attention. Might want to look into the antics of the unconstitutional BATFE a bit. Like the raid on KT Ordnance last week or the dealings of Len Savage with them or the banning of importation of some gun parts, just to name a few. The AWB is the ONLY thing the R's have done in favor of gun rights and Bush was pushing for it's continuance.

So why aren't the gun enthusiasts and NRA die-hards going after this administration?

And don't give me that "9/11 changed everything" line.

Things changed after 9/11 only because "conservatives" didn't live up to their name and ALLOWED it to change.

SoxSweepAgain: Nobody's bashing the guys who died.

Umm, I call Bullshiat on that. Maybe you aren't, but if you read the posts I think you have to agree with me.

HotWingConspiracy:

What goes around comes around.

I don't get that one. What are you talking about?

Smurf

You will have to scroll to read how Iraq and Al-Qaeda are related. I promised to do it only once. But certainly you watched CNN last week and saw that someone important died. Did CNN note that the important person who died was the leader of Al-Qaeda? This is the same group that flew planes into our buildings and promise to kill a whole bunch of Americans on American soil. In grade school we called them the "enemy" and the event a "war". FYI they started it, we intend to win it.

I have read your threads and understand you will attack me in response, but try to address facts in the process. I still love you.

Alphax

hey man can you do me a favor? where did you get that report from because i would like to read it? you got me curious now

oh no

This is why I'll never go back to being a liberal. You are nothing but selffulfilling cynics. 9/11 happend and you all decided that it was Americas fault so you've spent all these years filling in the gaps with Bushiatler talk, conspiracy theories, and now you can't understand the sacrifice of our troops beyond the politics.

Now I don't like Bush, but what are you all going to do when he's not in office and the terrorists are still setting off bombs around the world? Nothing, you won't do anything. You'll be too busy complaining about the same pet causes you were complaining about before with a new president.

This small town I live in has lost two Marines in Iraq so far. Two friends I went to High School with. One of them drowned trying to save the crew of a downed helicopter that crashed in a drainage ditch.

If they'd let me I'd enlist in the Marines today. Would that make me a dumbass and you the hero?

What should we name in honor of Tony Snow and Dan Bartlett for heroically crapping their pants on the helicopter? A new line of Depends maybe?

In the late 60's and early 70s the it was fashionable to be against the war in Vietnam and people got away with villifying the men, mostly draftees without money or connections, who served there. Those people who insulted our soldiers as they returned, the Jane Fondas and Tom Haydens, were filled to the brim with smug self satisfaction convinced of their place in history. Now a generation later, after the North Vietnamese slaughtered thousands of innocent civilians after our withdrawal, and after the fall of the false ideology they stood for, history sees these people as the traitors they were. They try to repudiate their actions but they memory of their treason hangs about their necks like a millstone.

You can be against a war without condemning the brave men who answered their country's call. You can be against the war without giving heart to our enemies. Despots the world over again and again make the mistake of underestimating the resolve of the democratic nations because they listen to the loud and vocal monority. Against the war? Then VOTE then use the democratic process to make your wishes known. However, once we are embroiled in a conflict honor those men brave enough to fight.

Very well, FarkLark, I shall address the facts.

FACT 1
The military presented Bush with a number of opportunities, pre-invasion, to take Zarqawi out. Bush refused because it undermined part of his case for invasion: that Saddam was harboring an al-Qaeda official inside Iraq.

FACT 2
Zarqawi was north of the no-fly zone, in Kurdistan, in an area where Saddam had no control. He only went south into Baghdad when we "liberated" it for him.

FACT 3
Zarqawi was not a member of al-Qaeda. Ever. Yes, he renamed his organization "Al-Qaeda In Iraq." He did this in December 2004, nearly a year after we invaded based in part on the premise that he was a member of the organization. Furthermore, Zarqaewi and bin Laden also appear to have hated each other. But, after the invasion, Zarqawi's renaming of his group made sense for them both. Bin Laden was, by that time, pinned down, cut off, more or less incapable of hurting us, because of the invasion of Afghanistan. But al-Qaeda was still the name in terrorism. So, bin Laden got to feel relevant, and Zarqawi got to feel like a big shot.

.
.
.

Had enough of my 'attack', yet?

HotWingConspiracy: We don't want to hear about how you get off.


Recognized yourself eh loser?

Unfortunately, Infantry, it's one of those Pentagon reports I've seen quoted widely without having seen it myself. I just tried searching pentagon.mil, without finding anything that wasn't heavily spun.

FleaRHCP said (in response to my post)
...They (wrt Iraq) were not "defending" anything.
Naming something after them is too "easy." I choose to honor them by reminding people why they should still be alive...

Right! Spare me, dude. (FleaRHCP:"OK.
Let's start with "Coward Avenue", "Murderer Circle", "Dishonored Street",....."
Look!!! Someone else said it - not me!!!

Nice honor.


And don't forget why many soldiers enlist in the first place - Patriotism? eh. Money for college? getting warmer... They're poor and have no other real opportunities? *Ding!*

"Many" soldiers? Maybe, but I think we can agree that there are easier ways to create opportunities. There is still a certain amount of patriotism and sense of duty and honor required to join.

savanola

n the late 60's and early 70s the it was fashionable to be against the war in Vietnam

You're dreaming.

Against the war? Then VOTE then use the democratic process to make your wishes known.

Geez, I didn't know there was a public vote on the war. You should've told us.

witness

9/11 happend and you all decided that it was Americas fault

That's a convenient fiction you tell yourself to avoid some hurtin' cognitive dissonance. All liberals didn't decide that.

Alphax

ah, oh well. actually i guess i could have just searched for myself. laziness! thanks anyway

9/11 happend and you all decided that it was Americas fault

No, we decided it was bin Ladin's fault, and supported the pursuit of military action in Afghanistan.

It was when the Great Republican Noise Machine decided to put this cockamamie idea that Saddam Hussein was to blame and that the only logical course of action was to inva-... Or pardon me... "Liberate" Iraq into the heads of a still-shaken and easily-influenced public that we started having a problem.

But, it seems you've already decided who to let make up your mind for you. Far be it from me to cause a tremor in that comfortable little world you've made for yourself. All it does is make you irratable and wastes my time.

DonutsForEver: You're dreaming.


You're ignorant

FarkLark said: SoxSweepAgain, You understand.

Why can't those on the left understand those young men did what they had to do. Murder in any form is wrong. It was wrong when they attacked us, it is wrong that we now have to remove them from the face of the earth. They make it a war, we choose to win that war.
==========================================
Iraq did not attack us, first of all. Yes, the troops, like my brother, who is a sergeant in the Rangers, and is also a medic in Afghanistan special forces, did what they were ordered to do.

But we do NOT have to support an unjust war, no matter how strongly indoctrinated or believing the soldiers/marines are.

We do not have to "choose to win" this unwinnable war. The best case scenario is a costly permanent occupation, or an immediate exit where the Iraqis deal with the chaos of vacuum, just as America was forced the Vietnamese to do in Viet Nam, the most recent totally stupid war for dollars.

ToxicMunkee

its not conservatives that are taking away our freedoms, its the republicans, led by bush.

Infantry, you are right; the current criminals in power are far, far, far from "conservative."

They've created the most bloated government and run up the highest deficits in American history, adjusted dollars or not!

The only thing conservative about them is that they are socially regressive.

They are MONSTERS.

savonola: When I read the worst of these snarky "patriotism is for suckers" type posts I picture the writer as some balding "comicbook guy" type of a loser in a soiled "Bush Sucks" tshirt too small to cover his huge gut typing away with a chilidog in one hand...

Whenever I read a post like this one I think of a toothless meth addict in a dirty wifebeater drinking some cheap beer, and munching on Cheetos. Rush is blasting away on the one speaker that still works in an old radio while the devoted Dildo Head then repeats everything he has just heard on the internets. Spewing hate and bile at liberals whom he has been told are what lays between him and being something.

savanola

People don't CO and/or go to jail because it's fashionable. People don't self-immolate because it's fashionable. They don't incur the wrath of their politicians, friends, and community because it's fashionable. And on, and on, and on. You think every protestor protested for the sake of status and looking cool. The anti-Viet Nam war movement was far more heterogenous than you realize. Go home out of it.

Rush is blasting away on the one speaker that still works in an old radio while the devoted Dildo Head then repeats everything he has just heard on the internets.

"That's right! Today's Tom Sawyer git's high on yew!"

Oh, sorry, wrong Rush.

infantry its not conservatives that are taking away our freedoms, its the republicans, led by bush.

Hey, if all "liberals" are going to be lumped together as America hating, troop hating, baby eating terrorists, then I'm going to lump all "conservatives" together to make my point.

Even though my point is probably wasted. *sigh*

They should rename all the streets after football terminology instead.

infantry
its not conservatives that are taking away our freedoms, its the republicans, led by bush.

Yes, but who voted them into power?

Or maybe they should put white crosses where the street markers are.

Not so feel-good to support the troops now, is it? I don't think people would like those constant reminders very much.

The_Raconteur: Whenever I read a post like this one


Dude your dropping chilidog all over your keyboard ...

savonola: Dude your dropping chilidog all over your keyboard ...


Watch those Cheeto crumbs, Bub.

DonutsForEver: People don't self-immolate because it's fashionable.

History will be your judge. By the way I can loan you a match if you need one.

ToxicMunkee

well i guess i just thread jacked you. sorry man.

Garble

people who thought they would be getting conservatives? imho the republicans lied to everyone to gain power and they are acting in an irresponisble non-conservative manner.

There was a famous "fiasco" here in Arizona when the Governor wanted to name a highway (and the mountain the highyway was named for) after the "first native american woman" (that enough qualifiers?) to die in the war.

The Naming commision told her that they normally wait 5 years to make sure that the person was still regarded as someone who should have a highyway (and mountain) named after them. Well, this was an election year, so strong-armedness ensued (including getting rid of the head of the naming commission, and thinly veiled "threats" by the Gov's "assistant" - big guy - named Tony).

Why do we elect such dumbass governors here?