My grandfather died on Normandy
Omaha Beach
1st wave

The last real war.

Here's to the greatest generation.

Did this thread degenerate into some lame flame war?

If so, I'm going to depart.

"FleaRHCP

Since war is so wrong and you are so smart, what would you have done against Hitler and the Germans?"

It is not remotely that simple - pure Good vs. pure Evil only happens in the movies...

Thanks Gramps!

/Grandfather served stateside in the U.S Army due to physical impairments.
//His brother never made it off the landing craft at Anzio.
///Can't imagine how much that must have sucked.

My great uncle fought on the beaches of Normandy this day all those years ago. He was rushing the beach and looked back in time to see his friend's head get blown off. He rarely talked about the war, but he was very against the military salutes and precessions held every year for D Day. He thought that Normandy was more of a tragedy than anything else and hated anyone who thought the men fought with valor, when he said it was more like they were too scared to think.

This is not my opinion, I'm not trying to start a flame war, but this is merely one soldier's thought on what happened.

Thanks though, Great Uncle Dave...

Party Boy

No not really. The only troll is FleaRHCP and then there are just some minor disputes about the roll everyone played in what.

Everyone agrees that anyone who landed on D-Day was a hero and deserved to be honored no matter where they were from.

koniver
Great. Glad to hear people have respect for the dead.

FleaRHCP

Not a good vs. evil question. You said war was wrong and that we should not honor our D-Day veterens because it was state genocide or whatever.

So my question is what do you do in that situation. You are obviously much smarter than the rest of us so I want to hear your opinion.

Party Boy

Also, if you take the time to read through, a lot of great stories and tributes.

Ubergrendle:

A large part of the problems with the USSR and the Western powers after WWI through the Cold War was due to the Ally North Russia Campaign -- a time when the powers of the U.S., British, French, and Japanese planned some attacks to help the Czar's armies during the Russian Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Russia_Campaign

The interesting this is -- not many people in the west has ever heard much about this operation. The USSR on the other hand always used this action as a direct attack on the Soviet Union by the western powers, which in many ways was a big cause of the Cold War.

I recall that the actor David Niven's military record was leaked and apparently he was involved in some very dangerous, covert operations during the war. And yet he never spoke of his numberous commendations for valour or battles... the most he said about the matter was words to the effect 'there's alot of people who can't talk about what happened, so neither will I'.

I think the humility and modesty compouned upon the great leaps forward for humanity possible after WWII is what makes them the greatest generation.

koniver
I will then. Glad to see this has not degenerated into a debasing thread.

jospradlin

I am aware of the north campaign actually, with Kerensky's white russians. Poorly planned and executed though, badly coordinated effort.

I actually learned of this as I used to play Battletech alot, and recognised that all the houses and characters were based on historical precedent...i wanted to learn more about Kerensky, hence... ;)

\history AND former RPG geek.

Again, about what I should have expected...

FleaRHCP: WTF?

I absolutely LOVE the "no one is intelligent enough to argue with me" attitude... precious.

How 'bout this, retard... I've known many WWII era folks that were not white, homophobic, racist, rich, et cetera.

I doubt you have known any... so STFU.

One thing that really strikes me about many of these posts is how many farkers are talking about their grandfathers, great-uncles, etc, and how "they never talked about it."

Post traumatic stress wasn't really identified as a condition until the Vietnam-era vets returned. It seems like it's taken for granted that people who were sent to Vietnam came back as different people, and had flashbacks, and in some cases couldn't cope with what they had seen. All of this is understandable, given the horror that is war.

However, it doesn't seem like this has been appreciated in WWII vets until recently. I guess it's because it just wasn't talked about back then, and the men (and women) fell into the role of buttoning up and never sharing their emotions. It's sad to know that people like my grandfather must have carried around an incredible burden for the rest of their lives, and never told anyone about what they had seen or done.

FleaRHCP

"Translated into English, they were racist, sexist, homophobic, and it made life easier for them, the straight white males."

Riiiggghhht. All of them. Wow, another gross generalization by another moron who read a book once and thinks he is smart.

Funny, it was these bigots that were running the government, sitting on benches and controlling the country when all of the greatest strides from discrimination towards equality took place.

That is because even in the 40's and 50's there were large numbers that spoke out for racial equality and gender equality. It was that generation that had come back from the war and was holding the governmental power at the time that the civil rights movement was petitioning. And it was that same generation that first started actually changing the goverment in response to the activists and changing attitudes of the time.

So while SOME were the bigots you describe, many were not, and at personal risk actually cast the votes that started change.

But you are too ignorant to separate them. A quality often found among bigots like yourself.

FleaRHCP: Translated into English, they were racist, sexist, homophobic, and it made life easier for them, the straight white males.

***

You still here, ratboy? I thought you have something better to do.

Tell you what, sunshine...sorry, sunstroke: since you're the one making the accusations, the burden of proof is on you. Prove to me that every single American soldier who served in WWII was a straight white male homophobe racist. Go ahead. Please. I want your proof.

But before you offer any, consider: My Italian WWII vet grandfather worked with men of all walks of life and colors of skin in Korea (this was after the desegregation of the troops), and according to the family had nothing but praise for them. And his/Grandma's neighbor and best friend came home from the war with a Filipina wife, took all sorts of shiat for it, even got into fistfights about it, and never once wavered in his devotion to her. So consider that before you go around painting a lot of people you don't know with the same prejudiced brush, and making a lot of generalizations about a time and a group of which it's painfully apparent you have no personal, firsthand knowledge.

2006-06-06 03:22:36 PM FleaRHCP
Again, about what I should have expected...

...just a troll.

TheGoblinKing

Saw the same special.
The Iraqis were looking for a way to get England out of their country and saw Hitler as a perfect answer.
The phrase "Allah is your master in heaven, but Hitler is your master on Earth" became a popular slogan in Iraq.

Iraq was also the 4th country, if my memory holds, to sign on with the Axis nations.

From their perspective, this all made sense.
Hitler was claiming Europe for whites and the rest of the world could keep to it self.
They saw this as meaning that whites would go back to Europe and leave Africa to blacks and the Middle East to Arabs.

FleaRHCP

It is funny how you have no response because it just shows how ignorant you are. You called everyone else a sheep yet you are the biggest sheep. You have no ideas of your own and are just regurgitating something you found on the internet or in the back of a book. I could at least have a glimmer of respect for you if you had your own ideas even if I disagreed with them.

It is people like you and your pseudo-integlligence that really annoy me. Using buzz words like sheep doesn't make you smart, it is actually using your brain. All you do is bash an idea but don't have enough intelligence to come up with one of your own. I actually pity you.

Skiffy: However, it doesn't seem like this has been appreciated in WWII vets until recently.

This movie won a bunch of Oscars in 1946:



The movie is nothing but a portrayal of three different types of PTSD. In fact, one of the stars had both of his hands blown off in a training accident during the war. Showing him with the dual hooks and the harness he had to wear was shocking at the time.

You can also look at The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit and see much the same thing.

I think it's more of a matter that they didn't have the language yet to describe it, but they knew without doubt that PTSD was present in a lot of returning vets.

"FleaRHCP

Not a good vs. evil question. You said war was wrong and that we should not honor our D-Day veterens because it was state genocide or whatever.

So my question is what do you do in that situation. You are obviously much smarter than the rest of us so I want to hear your opinion."

What bothers me the most is that America tells the story as it, the white knight riding in on an even whiter horse, storming in and rescuing the frightened villagers from the dark and evil dragon, when the actual story is Much more complicated, and doesn't paint the "hero" in quite as favorable a light.

Crunch61

Incorrect. We beat the Germans logistically by then and that's about it. Logistics are never a measure of who will win, as proven by such wars as the Civil War, Revolutionary War, etc. It could've easily gone either way, just as those wars could have, and lay "on the edge of a knife" as it were. Hell, even after the succeeeding of DDay nothing was assured.

Crunch61: No, we didn't. Bombing raids had already mortally crippled Germany's production capabilities by D-Day.

Not true. German tank and aircraft production actually peaked in the fall of 1944. Germany never fully mobilized its war economy until after Speer convinced a shaken Hitler to do so after 20 July. Not until then did women work in factories. Hitler's own fanatical ideology forbade it - the Aryan was so naturally superior to the Slav that such measures were unnecessary. Had Germany fully mobilized from the outset, or at least beginning w/ Barbarossa, the outcome may have been very different.

Sarcasm Incarnate: That is because even in the 40's and 50's there were large numbers that spoke out for racial equality and gender equality. It was that generation that had come back from the war and was holding the governmental power at the time that the civil rights movement was petitioning. And it was that same generation that first started actually changing the goverment in response to the activists and changing attitudes of the time.

So while SOME were the bigots you describe, many were not, and at personal risk actually cast the votes that started change.

But you are too ignorant to separate them. A quality often found among bigots like yourself.

***

(Stands and applauds)

Couldn't have said it better myself.

FleaRHCP: What bothers me the most is that America tells the story as it, the white knight riding in on an even whiter horse, storming in and rescuing the frightened villagers from the dark and evil dragon, when the actual story is Much more complicated, and doesn't paint the "hero" in quite as favorable a light.

Yes, Americans. You should feel bad about yourself! Let us all contemplate how bad you all are. There are not enough threads for that here on Fark!

You bad, bad, Americans! How dare you put up heroic thread of propoganda to irritate the fleas sensibilites! Listen to comrade flea. He knows how bad America is. Let us all love America like patriotic flea.

A reoccurring theme that evolves around WWII vets and vets in general, is that they "did not talk about it".
They went away to war came home, went to work, raised families, and generally kept their mouths shut, at least to those who had not been there.

These men and women took several years of their life and just walled it away from the world. Today any slight shake-up in our world is good for at least one group with an alphabet soup of a name to gather together all who were affected and tell their stories to the world. But not them and not then, they were quiet and without the prying of historians like Ambrose, the information would have been lost.

I grew up near a small Southern town, with a very strong military presence made up of those who were from there and had gone to war and those who decided to retire from the service there, and many who were actually stationed there to teach at the Military School.
My father was an instructor at the school and a veteran (Korea) so in the evenings there would be a gathering of gentlemen, active duty, prior service, and retired military. After the scotch had flowed for a while, the war stories started. I listened to the original "naked Warrior" describe the beaches of Normandy from a swimmer's point of view. I heard the stories from Corigador, and the march. I heard what it was like in the Solomon's, during the naval battles. I listened to tales of Iwo and Okinawa. I listened to what it was like to fly the "hump" and to battle your way across Burma. I heard stories about the "Flying Tigers". I was awed by accounts of Bastogne. I also heard what it was like to walk into a "death Camp". I learned of my dad's exploits at Inchon, and the long fighting retreat across the Chosin reservoir. I heard about operations in the Iron Triangle, and the Highlands of Vietnam. All of this I would listen to from my hiding place in the shrubbery outside of our screened porch or from my ear pressed against the door to the kitchen, depending on the weather.

Let me make it clear that every one of these stories were in fact stolen by me, these men did not know they were being overheard, or they would have talked about football or hunting, and if I had been caught, well it would have been my ass. I did not do it every time they came, but when the scotch flowed and the 1st bottle became the 2nd, and dad cranked up "tequila" on the Curtis Mathis, I knew it was story time.

These tales were always told in a self depreciating manner and usually they started lightly and humorously, later in the night these tales turned into horror shows that made sneaking in to see the Exorcist, seem tame entertainment indeed. I believe that I did not understand anymore than a third of what I heard, so full of slang, acronym, and adult worldliness were these stories, but what I did understand made me infinitely glad that these thing did not happen to me, especially now that I am an adult and prior service. Somebody did say that an "Adventure" was something that happens far away and to some one else.

So Granddad and grandma did tell their tales but only to their brothers and sisters in arms, this is the real "code" that should have a book and Tom Hanks staring in the movie.

This is as good a thread as any to recognize the Americans, Brits, Canadians, Poles, Czechs and French - along with many other men and women of who knows how many different nationalities - who pulled together on this day in 1944.

Eisenhower was right, it was the Great Crusade.

FleaRHCP: when the actual story is Much more complicated, and doesn't paint the "hero" in quite as favorable a light.

You continue to evade every question posed to you. Since you persist in refusing to give a straight answer, I reserve the right to listen to anything else you say until you answer the fookin' question, which I and others have asked you: what, in your infinite wisdom and compassion for everyone who isn't a white male, would you have done about Nazi Germany and Italy attempting to annex the whole of Western and Eastern Europe, not to mention their invasion of Africa. More importantly, what response would you have made to the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

Straight answer this time, Sunstroke. Quit being a pussy, man up, and answer the question.

Thanks Vets
for protecting the constitution

Anyone got some bug spray? There this annoying flea that is sucking the life blood out of this tribute.

WTF is the color of the sky in your world, bugboy?

Now those were some heroes, as are all are American fighting men and women.

Too bad we use up our heroes in modern times for pointless wars that accomplish nothing.

Ubergrendle

Dang, I never drew the line between the North Russian campaign and BattleTech. That's pretty cool though -- a blast from the past on old BattleTech RPG board games. I wouldn't mind a new FASA BattleTech computer game...

Exiting the thread.

three cheers for the vets.

"FleaRHCP: WTF?

I absolutely LOVE the "no one is intelligent enough to argue with me" attitude... precious.

How 'bout this, retard... I've known many WWII era folks that were not white, homophobic, racist, rich, et cetera."

I said "they" because that is how the original statement was phrased. Perhaps I should have phrased it better as a generalization for the ruling class, which is the group that gets us involved in wars...

Again, I just wanted come in here and post an objection to the attitude that "America is always right, and in WWII, Germans were the devil incarnate, and the Americans were heroes for killing them," because that's not exactly what happened...

That's all - if you think I'm an idiot, fine, don't respond. My posts here really are for me, not you - I'm just trying to spread some truth, and that makes me feel good. I can go away knowing that, even in the face of almost 100% disapproval, I did my best to try and make a few people think.

A bit heroic, perhaps?

2006-06-06 03:36:41 PM FleaRHCP
...when the actual story is Much more complicated, and doesn't paint the "hero" in quite as favorable a light.

Really? That's amazing.. please enlighten me with the ACTUAL STORY.

Again, I just wanted come in here and post an objection to the attitude that "America is always right, and in WWII, Germans were the devil incarnate, and the Americans were heroes for killing them," because that's not exactly what happened...


Except you didn't do that. Your initial message was entirely different.

And your statement about how "America" portrays itself in WWII is entirely false. America has been more than critical about its own role, actions, and motives. Its been well documented in scholarship and its even made its way onto film.

The fact that so many Americans can argue about this topic should be a signal that we are not all of one mind about it.

Of course, if you had known that, you wouldn't have come in here to deliver your "message." But then, you wouldn't be able to harbor such a comfortable, reassuring, and utterly idiotic conception of Americans.

God bless you Dad, I know you are once again with the men and women you fought beside, but that doesn't make me miss you any less.