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(Some Guy)   Let us not forget those who began the Nazi beatdown on this day in 1944   (historychannel.com) divider line 630
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16731 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jun 2006 at 11:22 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-06-06 01:37:41 PM  
TheWolfdog: what Tatsuma doesn't acknowledge is the thousands of German Spies who were forced into the army, played "good nazi" only to turn over important secrets and locations to the Allies.

2006-06-06 12:45:15 PM The only german heroes were the underground and those who fought against the Hitlerian regime. THAT's the heroes.

I think that's pretty clear I gave them props already. As well as in my last post.
 
2006-06-06 01:39:20 PM  
My grandfather fought at Omaha beach. He won't talk about it but did say that Saving Private Ryan was the closest thing to what really happened that he had ever seen.

Could we, as a nation, do this again if the situation was the same? Would the public support it? Could we get enough willing men to fight?

I don't think the answer is 'yes' to any of these, and it does make me very sorrowful. Even though we weren't a 'super power' back then, I still think we were greater of a nation (Yeah, we had problems with racisim and such but we did have guts and integrity).

I also want to thank the British and expecially the Canadian troops who fought on D-Day. You often are the un-sung heros of that fateful day. As much as people laugh at Canada, may of their brave fighting men died on that day as well. If they didn't secure Juno, the British would have been hurting.

..and now for something completely different.

The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are a short-tempered lot. They not only expect one to know one's gate parking location, but how to get there without any assistance from them. So it was with some amusement that we (a Pan Am 747) listened to the following exchange between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747, call sign, Speedbird 206: Speed bird 206: "Top of the morning, Frankfurt, Speedbird 206 clear of the active runway." Ground: "Guten Morgen. You vill taxi to your gate." The big British Airways 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a stop. Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?" Speedbird 206: "Stand by a moment, Ground, I'm looking up our gate location now." Ground (with arrogant impatience): "Speedbird 206, haff you never flown to Frankfurt before?" Speedbird 206 (coolly): "Yes, I have, actually, in 1944. In another type of Boeing, but just to drop something off. I didn't stop."
 
2006-06-06 01:40:14 PM  
savonola: The point is that we all think we would be heros. The sad fact is that heros are rare and that most of us would comply. You never know what you would do until placed in that situation.

The Milgram and Standford experiments are the exact reasons why I now take that stance.

When I looked back at these experiments, when I looked back to Germany's population and the way they behaved, when I looked in the mirror and realized with horror that, in other circumstances, in another place, it might have been might, I was disgusted at myself & humanity.

That's when I decided to take such a strong stance and repeat it to myself constantly, so that if one day I'm in front of such a choice (may that never happen) so that I my hand doesn't fail me and I never take the wrong choice.
 
2006-06-06 01:41:12 PM  
Tatsuma, I have been to 2 places that have made me physically ill just by a general feeling in the air around the place.
The Presidio la Bahia in Goliad, Texas, where Col. Fannin and his troops were massacred, and the Dachau concentration camp.
Granted, the deaths of 341 Texicans pales in contrast to the loss of millions of Jews, but both places left an indelible impression on me as a youth.
 
2006-06-06 01:41:32 PM  
Ubergrendle - there are missed opportunities prior to the war where conflict could have been minimised - such as allies taking action after Czechoslovakia, or the Soviets seeking an alliance with France and Britain instead of Germany in 1939.
 
2006-06-06 01:41:40 PM  
Okie Cynic: Evil Twin Skippy

"The Army Air Corp had the highest allied casualty rate of any service. Including the marines in the Pacific."

I'm pretty sure the submarine service actually had the highest rate of U.S. services. Something like 20%.


You win. But for their side, on the U-boats, it was nearly 90%. Wow.

Second place (and what a great prize that is...) goes to the Merchant Marines, at a mere 4% (pops). "Mere". 243,000 men. God.

RIP, you greatest of generations. You are heroes to the ages.
 
2006-06-06 01:41:57 PM  
2006-06-06 01:28:56 PM Mztlplx

He wasn't there for D-Day, but.....thanks, Pop. I miss you.

/USS Indianapolis
//He *never* spoke about it


Mztlplx, is this your dad?

upload.wikimedia.org

Kidding. I thank your dad too. You have very good reason to be proud.
 
2006-06-06 01:42:51 PM  
Hats off to the greatest generation.

We all could learn a bit about fighting tyranny and facism from these guys rather than letting it fester in our country today.
 
2006-06-06 01:46:32 PM  
Maud Dib: Tatsuma, I have been to 2 places that have made me physically ill just by a general feeling in the air around the place.
The Presidio la Bahia in Goliad, Texas, where Col. Fannin and his troops were massacred, and the Dachau concentration camp.
Granted, the deaths of 341 Texicans pales in contrast to the loss of millions of Jews, but both places left an indelible impression on me as a youth.


I walked once in a plant where cows were being slaughtered. I was sick, I cried and I instantly became a vegan.

Watching "The Pianist" had me depressed for a whole week. Watching "Life is Beautiful" made me cry for one hour afterwards.

I don't know if I could stomach the camps. I'm an emotional wuss, I guess.
 
2006-06-06 01:47:02 PM  
Hitler refuses to fund development of automatic rifles, resulting in the loss in Stalingrad.

They went behind his back and developed it anyway, under a false designation. It just came too late in the war. When they had a functioning model, they showed it to Hitler, fully expecting to get hanged for deceiving him but having ultimate faith in the weapon. Hitler was so taken with the rifle, he immediately rushed it into production, under a new designation, StG 43, the Sturmgewher, thus coining the term we all know and love today, "Assault rifle."

/trivia, the spice of knowledge.
 
2006-06-06 01:48:00 PM  
I'm just glad Tom Hanks found Private Ryan.
 
2006-06-06 01:48:15 PM  
Heartfelt thanks to all who participated.

/Couldn't imagine the living hell they went through.
 
2006-06-06 01:48:18 PM  
Tatsuma: so that I my hand doesn't fail me and I never take the wrong choice.

Okay Tatsuma ... let's go back in time. You are a 21 year old pilot and you join the Army Air Corp to fly fighters. Instead you are assigned to Bomber Command. You are ordered to fire bomb Tokyo with the express purpose of causing civilian casualties, read men, women, children and the elderly, and so shorten the war. Do you do it or do you refuse and go to Leavenworth? Milgram and history say you do it.
 
2006-06-06 01:48:19 PM  
Thank you WWII veterans for helping to fight maybe the only war in the last 70 years that actually had to be fought.

Your sacrifices are felt to this day. Thank you.

-j
 
2006-06-06 01:48:43 PM  
Dawnrazor

Nice one.
 
2006-06-06 01:48:49 PM  
My Father, 83, served in the Royal Air Force.

He always told us he had a very uneventful war.
Served in Coastal command, and never saw a Sub,
and transfered to Bomber Command, but the luftwaffe was to weak by then and it was a cake walk.
Then on to Burma to bomb the Japanese but that ended before they even got there.

However, he had a stroke 6 months ago, and for a while, lying in his hospital bed, he thought he was in the barracks, waiting for his next flight orders.
He was really worried, kept going on about Berlin and the Butcher who kept sending them over there. very worried about the missing crews and tearful over some friends who crashed and were killed on take-off.
he would grip my arm and curse the "Butcher" Then he would glance another man walking into the ward and say "Alan made it Back!" and get tearful.
His stroke left him in that awful worried state for a week. He's in a happier state now. But it gave a insight that I never else would of had.
 
2006-06-06 01:49:26 PM  
Tatsuma


My soul, my inner being, my mind, my personality, my essence, however you want to call it, is worth more than my life.

It's more important for me to be killed for refusing to do something that goes against my values so much than to live and do it, just for survival's sake.

If I kill or help deport people to stay alive, I'm even below the animal, I lost what makes me a mensch and I'm nothing but a cockroach, in my opinion.

There are things more important than survival at all costs


I'll respond according to the order of your statements.

Yes that is all very important. However, for most of the German populace, you wouldn't just be condemning yourself. You would be condemning your family. Are you prepared to make that choice for them as well? Will you blithely drag them into the line of fire so you can make a stand and die with a clean conscience?

I never said anything about surviving at all costs. I stated that I all for resisting...I'm just opposed to pointlessly dying. And yes, accomplishing nothing beyond getting packed into a cattle car and being summarily executed is pointless. Partly because you have done nothing to really effect the situation. And partly because it is simply an easy way out. Resist when you can and accomplish something meaningful...something that will injure the regime...that's what I support and ask of people in those circumstances. If they had the opportunity but never took action then yes they are complicite.
 
2006-06-06 01:51:12 PM  
Bohemian: Hats off to the greatest generation.

Oh, that reminds me of a conversation I had with some baby-boomer twat, once.

I said

Me: "Baby-boomers has to be one of the most selfish, egocentric generation that has ever been. They created around themselves a society that will be paid by their children and grandchildren who will never be able to access to level of comfort they lived in and will have to pay the cost of the pollution"
Him: "Shut you, you little brat! If society is as great, today, it's because of us, the baby-boomers! We're the greatest generation
Me: "I'm sorry, your fathers in their 20s were busy fighting and conquering Nazi Germany. In your 20s you were busy doing acid and having sex with hippies. What else did you do exactly to top THEM off?"

At which point he told me to go fark myself.

I can't believe the son of a man who fought in WW2 (because he was) would refer to HIMself as "The greatest generation this earth had ever known"

This is actually a bit sickening and proving my egocentric point.
 
2006-06-06 01:52:09 PM  
He also said of my sister..
"Whos that woman? Nice tits"

heh
 
2006-06-06 01:52:09 PM  
guarantor,

For certain. missed opportunities to avoid WWII:
- US and England backs France in 1936 when Germany reoccupies the Rhineland
- Allies take action after occupation of Austria, or Czechoslovakia, or even when the Rheichstag parliament was dismantled.
- France and England mobilise rapidly upon occupation of Poland, as opposed to their leisurely pace.

I doubt heavily that the USSR would ever consider an alliance w/ England/France/USA after 1917...communism was still a big boogeyman post WWI.

Also, given Japan's expansionism in the 1930s I think a war w/ the US (Phillipines, Hawaii) was inevitable due to the shared spheres of influence.

Ultimately I subscribe to the popular theory that WWI ended with an imperfect peace, with many of the original issues still outstanding. There's two ways to defeat your enemy -- total annihlation, or make them your best friend. WWII saw both...Germany and Japan completely destroyed, then their economies rebuilt to be world class once again.
 
2006-06-06 01:54:45 PM  
savonola: Do you do it or do you refuse and go to Leavenworth? Milgram and history say you do it.

What's the context? WW2?

Devin172: Yes that is all very important. However, for most of the German populace, you wouldn't just be condemning yourself. You would be condemning your family. Are you prepared to make that choice for them as well? Will you blithely drag them into the line of fire so you can make a stand and die with a clean conscience?

But I don't need to sacrifice my family. Even doing little to help the anti-war troops is better than doing nothing. Even if it's just stealthy vandalism. There are always ways to help without giving yourself away.

.I'm just opposed to pointlessly dying.

Let me ask you something.

You are a german man. A german officer comes to you with a gun and it has one bullet. The man says: You either bite the bullet or you kill him.

What do you?
 
2006-06-06 01:55:18 PM  
fishrockcarving

Exactly!
 
2006-06-06 01:55:41 PM  
I've glanced down this thread and seen some flaming, trolling, and contentions on minor issues. On any other thread I would stop and read. For some reason I don't want to on this one.

Thanks to ALL who fought, unified, and sacrificed so much on this day.
 
2006-06-06 01:56:29 PM  
Could someone please post the peanuts cartoon "June 6, 1944, To Remember"? I've googled the hell out of it but can't find it. I would really appreciate it.
 
2006-06-06 01:56:46 PM  
i51.photobucket.com

i51.photobucket.com

i51.photobucket.com
 
2006-06-06 01:56:47 PM  
Lard_Baron:

Your father was a brave man. I am really sorry for him.

The same thing happened to my grandfather (who was too young to fight in WW2)

He had a stroke and, for the rest of his life, only spoke Latin until he died
 
2006-06-06 02:00:02 PM  
Tatsuma: Lard_Baron:
Your father was a brave man. I am really sorry for him.


I like to think we'd all do the same. If ever there was a just war, that was it.
 
2006-06-06 02:00:06 PM  
Here's a history lesson for all you idiots!

We invaded Normandy because:
A) We were bored.
B) We could.

I didn't trust Hitler, and I don't trust any other kraut bastard either!!!

/kidding.
 
2006-06-06 02:00:13 PM  
Tatsuma: We're the greatest generation


I think that history makes heros. I firmly beleive that without the Civil War Lincoln would have been a mere footnote in history instead of our greatest president. I truly beleive that my generation (Boomers) and todays kids would rise to the occasion if a crisis such as WWII were to come about. That said, there is no doubt in my mind that the WWII generation was the greatest generation since the generation that fought the Civil War.
 
2006-06-06 02:00:54 PM  
Wolfdog
"Your whining is like me bringing up Black on white racism and Jesse Jackson's affairs in a thread honoring Martin Luther King's birthday. I dare say there are more black racist in this country than white in 2006 because it is tolerated. You sir, are one of them.
Time and a place for everything, you are out of context, and rightfully labeled a troll. Plus your screen name is based on a song by rapper "Trick Daddy" , what a role model.

=======================================================
ROFLOL, From the MLK thread on January 15th"

autopr0n , having "no sympathy" for an allegedly opressed group of people, and "not giving a fark anymore" = racist? Yup, I'm a racist, you got it.

I guess what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander (whatever the hell that means).
So there are 'more racist Blacks' because it's tolerated, huh? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that Blacks have historically gotten the short end of the stick, comparably. No one accuses a Jewish person of reverse anti-semetism for making disparaging remarks about Nazis, but a Black man saying something about our oppressors is 'playing the race card'. Ridiculous. I made a simple observation based on another Farkers comment and apparently because I brought up race people have immediately jumped on the defensive and I'm a race-baiter. Then, in the same breath you have the audacity to suggest that it is MY attitude which twarts honest debate. You can't even acknowledge the facts. You can take what I say however you want. The Jews won't let you forget the Holocaust which was a single act some 60 years ago and I will not let you forget the history of THIS country.


And for your information, MY Grandfather fought in WWII. I still have a safe deposit box with currency that he collected from around the world. It's one of my most prized possessions. He risked his life right next to some of your grandfathers even though he couldn't sit in the same farking resturant in America. And when your grandfathers came home to a hero's welcome after 'liberating the rest of the world', MY grandfather still couldn't eat in the same farking resturant or apply for the same jobs. So fark you and your high horse.
 
2006-06-06 02:02:40 PM  
If you get the chance, go to Europe and visit a camp. I went to one in the Czech Republic and, even though it was a small one (IIRC) compared to some in Germany, the feeling was unreal.

The whole place evoked a feeling of dread, fear, and hopelessness even 60 years later. We saw the group showers (with no hot water), the solitary confinement cells that were so dark a person was swallowed up in them, small rooms where dozens or hundreds of people would be kept, the execution (by firing squad) hill and hanging courtyard. The compound just reeked of evil.
 
2006-06-06 02:03:53 PM  
Thanks, Grandpa.

/both of em!
 
2006-06-06 02:04:02 PM  
Broom: Second place (and what a great prize that is...) goes to the Merchant Marines, at a mere 4% (pops). "Mere". 243,000 men. God.

RIP, you greatest of generations. You are heroes to the ages.



You got a site for RAF bomber crew?
 
2006-06-06 02:04:33 PM  
Tatsuma: What's the context? WW2?


Yes, or a similar war where our national survival was at stake. I chose Japan because I want to avoid the whole "Hitler and the Jews" issue that is so dear to your heart.
 
2006-06-06 02:05:46 PM  
Zulu_as_Kono: You do know that the US contributed ~2/5 of the forces D-Day, right? And you disparage Occam for bringing up the Soviets, but you do know that the Soviets had far more to do with the Germans' defeat than the US, right?

I do not know why D-Day even happened. The glorious Russian Motherland did not need your help. We would defeat Germans by ourself!

Then all of Europe would be communist! Ahahahahahahaha! Ha!

We could have 'liberated' Europe on our own, spreading 'freedom' from the Nazis. Truly, America's contribution is irrelevant. Yes. Truly.
 
2006-06-06 02:11:07 PM  
savonola: Yes, or a similar war where our national survival was at stake.

But things are much more muddied when it comes to that situation. What are the strikes? What are the goals?

I just have a flight plan that says 'kill lots of yellow people randomly with big bombs"?

I think that history makes heros.

I'd agree

Lard_Baron: I like to think we'd all do the same. If ever there was a just war, that was it.

Definitely. I really do believe that WW2 is the most, clear-cut Just War there ever was.
 
2006-06-06 02:11:41 PM  
Actually, the beatdown began two years earlier, at Stalingrad. The Soviets fought three-quarters of the German forces, which is why the western allies were able to invade. Otherwise we'd still be waiting on the beach at Dover with our heads up our arses.
 
2006-06-06 02:13:29 PM  
Tatsuma


You are a german man. A german officer comes to you with a gun and it has one bullet. The man says: You either bite the bullet or you kill him.

What do you?



Either turn the gun on him, or if he won't turn it over, fight him with the other guy.

I'm not going to tell him to shoot me.
 
2006-06-06 02:14:12 PM  
Bschott007 -
"My grandfather fought at Omaha beach. He won't talk about it but did say that Saving Private Ryan was the closest thing to what really happened that he had ever seen.
Could we, as a nation, do this again if the situation was the same? Would the public support it? Could we get enough willing men to fight?
I don't think the answer is 'yes' to any of these, and it does make me very sorrowful. Even though we weren't a 'super power' back then, I still think we were greater of a nation (Yeah, we had problems with racisim and such but we did have guts and integrity).

======================================================

I disagree. While I do think that certain creature comforts have caused the average American to be a little less motivated, I think that you confusing America's current feelings about THIS unjust war with America's feelings about war in general. Recall that in the months after 9/11 military enrollment shot up dramatically. You had people like Pat Tillman who sacraficed millions of dollars to fight for what many believed at the time to be a just cause. Sh*t, right after the towers fell I would have taken the first thing smoking to Afghanistan to hunt for Osama myself. Those folks really were fighting for a noble cause. I think people today would respond the same way if presented with those circumstances. And that is not meant to take ANYTHING away from the soldiers who fought bravely and gave their lives.
 
2006-06-06 02:14:29 PM  
90% of the fighting was done in the soviet union, yeah congrats to a general who did 2% of the remaining 10%.
 
2006-06-06 02:14:54 PM  
but a Black man saying something about our oppressors is 'playing the race card'

Oppressors? Give me a farkin break. No one wants to hear it, especially not in this thread.
 
2006-06-06 02:15:13 PM  
Thank you all. Words won't suffice.
 
2006-06-06 02:15:14 PM  
I wish I had known my adopted father's father (grandfather I guess). He died before I ever knew him. He ended the war in Germany, but don't know the story as my dad never really knew it either. Too bad....

I admit a deep fascination with WWII. Sometimes I feel ashamed and wish I could have lived during that time, suffering in the Great Depression and then again during the War and then actually know what it would have been like to experience 'the good times' of the 50s ... (I know I know, a guilded age, but an excited one as well).

A question I don't know the answer to: who actually killed more peoples: the Japanese or the Germans? I thought the Japanese, but am I wrong?
 
2006-06-06 02:17:02 PM  
Mihail: 90% of the fighting was done in the soviet union, yeah congrats to a general who did 2% of the remaining 10%.

errr, yeah?
 
2006-06-06 02:17:14 PM  
Devin172: Either turn the gun on him, or if he won't turn it over, fight him with the other guy.

I'm not going to tell him to shoot me.


No, i said it's either your life, or the other's life. What do you choose?

No way around it.
 
2006-06-06 02:17:55 PM  
What do you?

Shoot the Hochstatt.
 
2006-06-06 02:18:06 PM  
One Grandfather was infantry at Normandy, the other Navy in the Pacific.

Both are gone now. One never spoke about it, even to my father. The other did not start talking about it until he was pretty delusional from hardening of the arteries.

I watch the History Channel now, on WWII and always wonder what they went through...and about the wealth of info from them that is now forever lost to me.

My thanks to those who fought. You deserved better than what we (and the world) are doing with the freedom you and the Allies fought for.
 
2006-06-06 02:18:18 PM  
I give much thanks to all those who fought bravely to smash out the evil in Europe.

I had family on both sides, American, German, and Austrian. My grandfather said it was hard to fight against the country he was born in(Germany), but the USA was his home now. He served proudly in WWII and I love him for that.

I am glad Spain and Mexico did not side with the Axis....the war would have gone on even longer.
 
2006-06-06 02:19:38 PM  
Tatsuma


No, i said it's either your life, or the other's life. What do you choose?

No way around it.



Reality is never binary. There are always options.
 
2006-06-06 02:19:43 PM  
Teutonic_Knight: I am glad Spain and Mexico did not side with the Axis....the war would have gone on even longer.

Can you imagine how different the world would be, if Mexico had sided with the Axis?
 
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