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(St. Petersburg Times)   "Keying teacher pay to student outcomes... seems about as fair as ranking a dentist's performance on how many cavities he fills in a year"   (sptimes.com) divider line 272
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6095 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 May 2006 at 11:37 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-05-22 07:42:40 AM
Or setting DWI arrest and traffic ticket quotas for cops....

Ever wonder why, even if you called THEM, they ask you if you've been drinking and start scrutinizing your windshield, mirrors and lights for cracks?
 
2006-05-22 07:43:35 AM
Yes, Langer says, every school has teachers who spend more time monitoring the clock than their students' homework. And some educators clearly excel compared with their peers.

Great admit you have a problem but do nothing about it; that should benefit the kids well.

Start weeding out those types of teachers and you'll find less resistence in future pay negotiations.
 
2006-05-22 07:46:17 AM
A better analogy would be that linking teacher pay to student outcomes is like linking doctor's pay to how healthy their patients are. Lets try this:
If a patient is on a doctor's books, and never has to come in for a checkup, then the doctor gets paid more. The more patients a doctor has to see, obviously the less well he is doing his job and therefore the less he gets paid.
Natural healthiness, how hard the patient tries to keep themselves healthy, their living conditions, income and any other factors are immaterial.
Now how stupid does that sound?
That's exactly what these eejits are trying to pull on teachers.
 
2006-05-22 09:10:52 AM
Sounds wonderful (if you happen to be an honors-class teacher).
 
2006-05-22 09:17:53 AM
Further evidence that deciding against becoming a teacher all those years ago wasn't such a bad idea.
 
2006-05-22 09:34:37 AM
DuncanMhor: That's exactly what these eejits are trying to pull on teachers.

They work for the government, and are paid with money extorted from taxpaying citizens. Their "pupils" are prisoners, they attend school because the government threatens their parents. Screw the teachers. Screw the public schools. And screw you too, if you think it's right to bully parents and children in order to "educate" them.
 
2006-05-22 09:49:04 AM
Programmer Cat: And screw you too, if you think it's right to bully parents and children in order to "educate" them.

Nice. So education only for those whose parents can afford it, yes? Everyone else can just stay at (or below) the economic level that they're at now?

But other than "screw you", can you find a cogent arguement for or against linking teacher's pay to pupil's performance?
 
2006-05-22 10:02:26 AM
ummmm.... don't dentists who see more patients get paid more, or is it just me?
 
2006-05-22 10:14:32 AM
Yes, yes let's blame the teachers for the fact that parents are too stupid fat and lazy to teach their children anything other than how to turn on the TV.
 
2006-05-22 10:19:06 AM
Nice. So education only for those whose parents can afford it, yes? Everyone else can just stay at (or below) the economic level that they're at now?

Or for those whose parents love their kids enough to teach them themselves.
 
2006-05-22 10:20:15 AM
Of course, you would never hear anything about limiting administrator pay. They're MUCH more important than teachers.

"In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something else." - Lee Iaccoca

/teachers should be millionaires
 
2006-05-22 10:26:38 AM
Programmer Cat: Or for those whose parents love their kids enough to teach them themselves.

Yes, because the main reason why people don't homeschool their kids is because they don't love them enough.
 
2006-05-22 10:37:23 AM
Programmer Cat: Or for those whose parents love their kids enough to teach them themselves.

Yes, because every family has an extra parent to stay home all day and teach their kids.

Welcome to the 21st century. Both parents are working in most families nowadays.
 
2006-05-22 11:34:20 AM
Quick1: Both parents are working in most families nowadays.

Assuming that there are two parents.
 
2006-05-22 11:42:00 AM
Umn, excuse me... but dosn't a dentist's pay get set by how many cavities he fills in a year? or procedures or whatnot? I mean: good results = more customers = better pay.
 
2006-05-22 11:44:09 AM
Programmer Cat

I don't know what world you think you're living in, but basing the education of future generations on parental responsibility, i would argue, is suicide
 
2006-05-22 11:44:49 AM
Everyone paying out of pocket for their own childrens' educations simply isn't an option.

You implement a system like that, you'll get masses of uneducated people who have no hope of contributing to society. I can't believe people are stupid enough to believe this.
 
2006-05-22 11:45:14 AM
Fool_Marquis: Umn, excuse me... but dosn't a dentist's pay get set by how many cavities he fills in a year?

seems that way to me, my dentist always complains that I don't have any cavities when I'm in for a check-up.
 
2006-05-22 11:45:15 AM
Only gaylords go to private schools.
 
2006-05-22 11:45:21 AM
OK, so why wouldnt I just give every kid in the class a 100, and get paid. It would probably be a better system if bonuses were paid for teachers who'se students excel.
 
2006-05-22 11:45:31 AM
I think a better approach would be to not allow parents to breed again if they didn't take the time to get the first one right.
 
2006-05-22 11:45:31 AM
Is our childrens learning? Well? Is they?

How well I did in school had no bearing on the teacher. Either I decided to do the work, or I decided not to. If I wanted to do better, I did. If I wanted to slack off, I did.

Welcome to personal reponsibility
 
2006-05-22 11:45:45 AM
"Keying teacher pay to student outcomes ... seems about as fair as ranking a dentist's performance on how many cavities he fills in a year."

That is one of the worst analogies I have ever seen. It would make sense if people went to the dentist everyday to have their teeth cleaned, and then the doctor was paid based on how few cavities he had to fill.
 
2006-05-22 11:46:21 AM
Children are hideous brats and I'm glad I'm not one anymore, plan never to have any, and never have anything to do with the little tykes.

That said, a half decent school seems to turn out fewer criminal, gobby little bastards than a really shiat school.

/Lawn, off, get.
 
2006-05-22 11:46:41 AM
I'd be all for it if you changed it to "CEOs" and "company performance" when talking about bonuses, salaries, and golden parachutes.

when it comes to teachers, give back teir power to actually punish students, requireparental involvement, and dump all the PC bullshiat they teach now and try teaching stuff like, I don't know... MATH, PHYSICS, HISTORY (non revisionist please), READING....
 
2006-05-22 11:46:51 AM
ArcadianRefugee: Assuming that there are two parents.

Are you saying that there are a lot of virgin births these days?
 
2006-05-22 11:47:05 AM
Holy crap - actually expecting someone to produce a result in excahnge for getting paid?

Those bastards!!
 
2006-05-22 11:47:24 AM
Some people are begging to go to a more caste society.
 
2006-05-22 11:47:29 AM
THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT SHOULD HAVE PERFORMANCE- BASED PAY SHOULD BE POLITICIANS. IF THE BUDGET ISN'T BALANCING, THEIR PAY IS THE FIRST TO GET CUT! ALSO POLITICIOANS SHOULD NEVER MAKE MORE THAN BASE TEACHERS' SALARY.
 
2006-05-22 11:47:34 AM
Anyone who thinks its a good idea to key teacher pay with student performance probably went to a private school.

When you work in a school where 99% of the children are receiving free lunches from the federal government(read: poor), you are going to have a more difficult time dealing with getting these children to pass standardized tests.

There is already a huge shortage of teachers...who will want to work at disadvantaged schools where single mothers are prostitutes and their boyfriends are gang banging drug dealers? Or even where the parents are good hard working people, but dirt poor?

Its an idea that sounds good in theory, but doesn't work in the real world.
 
2006-05-22 11:47:35 AM
Quick1

My kids are homeschooled for precisely the reason that the local school just does a crappy job (what's sad is that it's ranked as one of the best schools in the state, and our state is one of the best in the nation).

My wife and I made the decission that our kids future is more important than having HD-TV, all the movie channels, and every new X-Box game.


My wife's former occupation? Middle-school teacher ...
 
2006-05-22 11:48:16 AM

"Teachers can make excuses about children's home life and the lack of parental involvement, which Hess agrees is a "crying shame." She notes that from her class of 23 children, she has met just seven parents for more than a passing greeting.

That's an indicator of why the students aren't doing well," Hess says. "However, I'm the teacher. ... I'm responsible, and I need to be held accountable."

img.fark.com tag for her. Tip of the hat for teachers that care, wag of the finger for those that don't.
 
2006-05-22 11:48:32 AM
labman: ummmm.... don't dentists who see more patients get paid more, or is it just me?

Yes. Which is why paying them based on HOW MANY CAVITIES THEY FILL would be stupid. Not every PATIENT has a CAVITY to FILL.

/tooth cavities, you sickos
 
2006-05-22 11:49:50 AM
Can't we just kill all the stupid children? The world would be a better place.
 
2006-05-22 11:50:16 AM
Steven Levitt is totally freaking out right now.
 
2006-05-22 11:50:39 AM
The first step is to weed out the people who took the job because it was easy and because you get the summers off. The rest of those that are left are people who really want to teach.

See what kind of difference that makes

/besides cutting the # of working teachers in half...
 
2006-05-22 11:51:26 AM
If student performance has an effect on teachers pay I predict a landslide of kids who didn't even try getting good grades.

"You spelled every word incorrectly and didn't use any punctuation at all... A+!!!"
 
2006-05-22 11:52:05 AM
Kope: My wife and I made the decission that our kids future is more important than having HD-TV, all the movie channels, and every new X-Box game.

Good for you. But you have to understand that not everyone has the option of doing that. In most places nowadays, you can barely afford a small house, much less food and other necessities when only one parent is working.
 
2006-05-22 11:52:07 AM
CommonSenseSurrenders

Holy crap - actually expecting someone to produce a result in excahnge for getting paid?

Those bastards!!


Ummm bzzzzzzt.

The results of good teaching is not that a student either learns or performs well on a test, but that a student had every oportunity to learn.

When the student doesn't bother to show up for class, do their homework, or participate in any meaningful way 'cuase they preferre going out behind the gym to smoke various substances, it's not something the classroom teacher can fix.
 
2006-05-22 11:53:09 AM
Newsflash: A teacher can do his or her job perfectly and still have low-performing students. And bad teachers can still end up with brilliant students. Teachers have an extremely tiny amount of control over their students' lives - Not nearly enough to be held financially accountable for their students' performance. They already put in longer hours than most people without getting paid worth a crap. As a result, it's always difficult to find good teachers. This kind of thing will only make the situation worse.
 
2006-05-22 11:54:08 AM
Oh, better yet. Repeal the 'child labor' laws. Any child who flunks gets removed from school and put into the 'factories'.

That'll put some respect back into the young worthless children.

The 'good children' they'll have nothing to worrry about. They'll also be happier when the 'losers' get removed from school, and the smart kids aren't harassed by them anymore.

It's a WIN-WIN situation I tell you.
 
2006-05-22 11:55:08 AM
Quick1
In most places nowadays, you can barely afford a small house, much less food and other necessities when only one parent is working.

Look at the cost associated with working and you'll find that many of those people are spending about as much working as they actually make in that second job.

A far bigger problem is debt loads. But I have a hard time feeling sorry for people being irresponsible with their own lives.
 
2006-05-22 11:55:57 AM
Quick1: Of course, you would never hear anything about limiting administrator pay.

Tada!

Often completely useless administration. Should my wife be judged on the fact that the highschool kids can roam the halls during class hours, skipping class without any repercussions? They damn well can't pass the class if they are not there. Her job is to teach. Their job is to run the school. They can't run the school. How do you judge on that?

Parents have told her they don't care if their kid passes her class or not because they don't need it to graduate. So the kids don't either. How do you judge on that?

She's got a student in her class that's IEP. That kid should have a person from SpecEd with him at all times helping out. *Nobody* has ever shown up for him, so she does the best she can for him. How do you judge on that?

There's a kid that hadn't shown up to class till April because he was in out-of-school suspension for something he did last semester - and none of the schoolwork she sent to the admin office to get to the kid ever came back. How do you judge on that?

Until all of the people that aren't teachers give a shiat about what the kids are doing in school, it don't make a good goddamn what the hell the teachers are doing. You could put an animatronic Charles Darwin (she teaches biology) or a farking monkey at the front of the classroom, and get the same results - the kids who don't give a shiat (and have parents who don't give a shiat) won't go anywhere.

It completely farking boggles my mind what these kids are thinking they're going to do for the rest of their lives. The instant I hit school all I heard about was getting to college, college, college. So I did, despite myself.

What's the difference now, with these parents? Was it that my dad had his college education yanked out from underneath him due to *his* dad drinking the room+board money (full scholarship tuition to Bradley) and then getting drafted? Was it that my wife's parents never had the college opportunity and *knew* their lives were worse because of it?

I just don't the hell know.
 
2006-05-22 11:56:20 AM
Why not let the principal decide a teacher's merit and use that as the basis for promotions/raises? Those of us who work in the real world are subjected to our boss' rating us. Why shouldn't teachers by judged similarily?
 
2006-05-22 11:57:09 AM
Kill the government monopoly and let parents decide on how much teachers should make.
 
2006-05-22 11:57:29 AM
I like my analogy better:

Treat me like a carpenter. Guarantee me the quality of the raw materials, then I can gaurantee you the finished product.

Merit pay? Sure, teachers of Advance Placement classes would love it - hand out a worksheet, and sleep at the desk. Special Ed? Teach your butt off every day and still not get a raise. It's not even close to being equitable.
 
2006-05-22 11:57:42 AM
Teachers artifically inflating classwork grades will not help themselves because most performace based salaries are based on standardized tests. Unless the teacher is giving out the test answers. Those usually get caught, though.
 
2006-05-22 11:58:07 AM
In a perfect world, sure. In this world, all this will lead to is (more) grade inflation, which will ultimately harm the more gifted students. Oh, we'll tie it to standardized test scores? Then all that the kids will learn is test prep. Lose-lose for everyone.
 
2006-05-22 11:58:19 AM
Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldnt the analogy be:

"Keying teacher pay to student outcomes ... seems about as fair as paying a dentist according to the quality of the dental work." ?

I mean, apples are apples, oranges are oranges. I hate people that love throwing them together to support an argument.
 
2006-05-22 11:58:29 AM
When did Fark become overrun by Neocons?
 
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