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(Reuters) NewsFlash Four prisoners at Gitmo attempt suicide. Guards attempting to stop the suicides are attacked enroute   (today.reuters.com ) divider line
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15406 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 May 2006 at 1:00 PM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2006-05-19 03:33:10 PM  
Vetinari: where is the lie??

The lie was in the fact we didn't discover two mobile WMD labs as Bush claimed.

We discovered zero. And he knew that when he said that.
 
2006-05-19 03:33:32 PM  
Churnin Urn of Burnin Funk: This is far worse, I know.

Nah, I was addressing something Mark12A said in a thread awhile back.

He explicitly said, 'the Constitution should be changed so that the 1st Amendment does not apply to Muslims'.
 
2006-05-19 03:34:58 PM  
Ehm, why would somebody not enjoy the fine activities provided by the camp gitmo?
img55.imageshack.us
 
2006-05-19 03:35:00 PM  
Headso: haha, nice legal mumbojumbo, how the hell can you be an unlawful combatant? what the hell does that even mean?

I dunno. That legal "mumbojumbo" comes from that silly get-together called the "Geneva Convention". You know that little party that some people are great at remembering parts of, but forgot the other parts, probably due to the all-you-can-drink bar that they set up in the VIP area.
 
2006-05-19 03:36:00 PM  
hillbillypharmacist: Nah, I was addressing something Mark12A said in a thread awhile back.


Whoops! Another day in solitary for me! :)
 
2006-05-19 03:37:53 PM  
Skleenar - you've made your best point in comparing pre- and post-9/11 administrations. And it's a point that I'll consider and keep in mind.

I've often wondered about how many different memo's like that the administration receives? In my business, I happen to get (and sometimes generate) these sorts of things. If something were to go wrong, someone could point to them (as could I, come to think of it). The hard part, I'd say, is determining credibility and how to respond in the overall strategy of what's trying to be done.

That being said, I certainly do place blame in certain spots for these sorts of things:

Intelligence community - they've been very silo'd, which has caused some serious lapses in how things are handled. On top of that, they were focused on fighting and monitoring nations, not an organized band of terrorists.

Civilian oversight - based on the changing dynamics of the world, it appears that the wrong choices were made in directing said intelligence organizations.

Clinton - When it was identified who attacked us, his responses were inadequate to send a message. To me, that contributed to a feeling of attacking with impunity to the rest of the world.

Bush - My criticism here is how he sold the war in Iraq. Not from the WMD part (IIRC, most of the world was convinced that he was in possession of, or trying to build WMD's), but that he played that as a trump card. The simple fact is that removing Saddam was actually a moral thing to do. His handling of the country, the end-around he did on the Oil for Food, his continued saber-rattling, and the treatment of his citizens shows that*. Additionally, I think it would've been better suited for Bush to sell this as a long and arduous process, but one that makes the world better.

And to be fair, we are succeeding there(pops). Slowly, to be sure, but we are succeeding.


*Yes, there are other countries that are in the same boat that we could use that same argument for. However, it could be argued that this particular country had the largest upside for stabilization, both economically and politically.
 
2006-05-19 03:39:13 PM  
O.K., how about this...
we give them all 5 lbs. of pot-
it's hard to terrorize when you're stoned
 
2006-05-19 03:40:38 PM  
Piss on these muslims. We are NOT going to let them die unless they die on OUR terms. They do not live nor die without our permission. That is the price they will pay for their taliban days. Fark them. Some of you people act like we are talking about real people here. We are not. They are just ragheads. The only good muslim is a dead one...unless we don't want them to die. Bring your bleeding heart shiat to someone whose has been decapitated by these asswipes.
 
2006-05-19 03:41:47 PM  
Should I be amazed at the large number of trolls in this thread? Or has the two weeks in Barbados just taken that much of an edge off my cynicism?
 
2006-05-19 03:45:05 PM  
Churnin Urn of Burnin Funk: I dunno. That legal "mumbojumbo" comes from that silly get-together called the "Geneva Convention"

you should have stopped after the your first period, I didn't find it referenced at all in any of the geneva conventions.
 
2006-05-19 03:46:51 PM  
ronaprhys: And to be fair, we are succeeding there

I think that by 'fair' you mean 'very selective in the evidence I consider as valid'.
 
2006-05-19 03:48:31 PM  
simpsonfan

If these nutjobs want to kill themselves, encourage it. Especially if they can't take innocent people with them like most Religion of Peace suicides try to do.

Kind of a heavy handed troll there, man. You gotta keep it a little more subtle.
 
2006-05-19 03:49:12 PM  
Ahm Gitmo, the American gulag on the communist island. The ironing is delicious.
 
2006-05-19 03:51:23 PM  
spelunking_defenestrator


Rumsfeld is a war criminal, plain & simple.

People are only war criminals if their side is defeated. Sometimes not even then.

Kissinger should be rotting in prison. Instead he is an 80 year old guy banging models. There is never justice for the powerful; and this bunch will sail off into history on their superyachts.
 
2006-05-19 03:53:10 PM  
I dunno, I'd say that the author presented several very interesting points.

-Their economy is improving
-The voter turnout keeps getting higher and higher with each election
-More small businesses are opening up
-More Iraqis are returning to the country
-Press seems to be rather free and finding it's voice
-normal schools are open and being attended at a very high rate
-Food production is up

Those seem to be some very good signs. Is there still violence and bombings? Absolutely, but damn if that doesn't sound like us succeeding.
 
2006-05-19 03:54:58 PM  
mark12A


We put them in Gitmo so we could study our enemy and understand what motivates them, and what frightens them.

Study complete.

Shoot. Them. All.


You know, I always try to avoid Godwining a thread, but... well, fark it. YOu did it for me.

The only thing different between people like you and people like Dr. Mengele is power. Thank god you don't have any.
 
2006-05-19 03:57:38 PM  
Gilgigamesh - don't feel bad, you'd only be the 4-5th Godwin in the thread...
 
2006-05-19 03:58:21 PM  
iss on these muslims. We are NOT going to let them die unless they die on OUR terms. They do not live nor die without our permission. That is the price they will pay for their taliban days. Fark them. Some of you people act like we are talking about real people here. We are not. They are just ragheads. The only good muslim is a dead one...unless we don't want them to die. Bring your bleeding heart shiat to someone whose has been decapitated by these asswipes.

I give an 8 for 'bile', but only a 3 for 'style'. This was a ham-fisted troll attempt.
 
2006-05-19 03:58:54 PM  
twitchOSX?

See you and raise you.
Can't stop posting this pic.

botinok.co.il
 
2006-05-19 03:59:18 PM  
Churnin Urn of Burnin Funk
I dunno. That legal "mumbojumbo" comes from that silly get-together called the "Geneva Convention". You know that little party that some people are great at remembering parts of, but forgot the other parts, probably due to the all-you-can-drink bar that they set up in the VIP area.

But you're forgetting that President Bush claims the authority to decide who the Geneva Conventions do and do not apply to!
 
2006-05-19 04:05:19 PM  
"And besides, more would have been done to prevent 9/11 if Khalid Sheik Mohammed was offered up, anyway"


I partially agree in that I think either would have been invaluable. But I think it's incorrect to say at this point that Sudan offered Bin Laden to Saudi Arabi. President Clinton's remark was "And we'd been hearing that the Sudanese wanted America to start dealing with them again...So I peaded with the Saudis to take him..." Combine that with Mansoor Ijaz's accounts that Sudan did offer Bin Laden to the United States and I think you have a matter that would be worth exploring further if it weren't so inconsequential now, aside from as a thought debate.
 
2006-05-19 04:06:37 PM  
mark12A: We put them in Gitmo so we could study our enemy and understand what motivates them, and what frightens them.

Study complete.

Shoot. Them. All.


Don't be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Nazi Party!
 
2006-05-19 04:08:47 PM  
NUTZNGUM

Who's trolling?
 
2006-05-19 04:08:57 PM  
elendilmir: Can't stop posting this pic.


more please
 
2006-05-19 04:11:27 PM  
elendilmir

See you and raise you.
Can't stop posting this pic.


Hot, asain, and COMPETELY nuts
 
2006-05-19 04:11:33 PM  
I'd turn the damn firehose on those jihaddist scumbags.

Just like in "Planet of the Apes"

"It's a madhouse! A MA-A-A-A-A-A-ADHOUSE!"
 
2006-05-19 04:12:03 PM  
Considering the fact that a french citizen was in Gitmo for 3 years BECAUSE HE JUST USED THE WORD BOMB ON AN AIRPLANE , I can only weep for the innocent people that are forced to live in that hell.
 
2006-05-19 04:19:05 PM  
Update at 3:55 p.m. ET:

The base commander at Guantanamo said today that the it appears prisoners staged a fake suicide attempt Thursday to lure U.S. guards into a dorm-like room at a minimum-security wing. It was then that they attacked the U.S. guards, Navy Rear Adm. Harry B. Harris Jr. said, according to The Associated Press.


So umm, if I swallow a bunch of pills that I have obviously put effort, time and thought into saving and hiding for I imagine for a long while, I am just a big ol' faker. Yeah right.
 
2006-05-19 04:20:33 PM  
BernardMarx

That hell?

Many of our own soldiers live in much worse conditions at home and abroad.

Jesus have you ever been to Gitmo? Has anyone on fark been there and actually seen what goes on?

Might as well been a missle that hit the Pentagon
 
2006-05-19 04:38:42 PM  
cazz: Who's trolling?

Did you know, according to the Pentagon's on records, less than 10% of the people in Gitmo were enemy combatants captured in battle?

The rest are people turned in for bounty. About US$100, which is more than the average Afgani makes in a year.

So, you turn in someone, no questions asked, no trial, and you live like a tribal chief.

This is real, it is happening, and these people have been there under interogation for years. If you have any humanity in you whatsoever, you cannot dismiss this.
 
2006-05-19 04:40:39 PM  
Hickory-smoked
This is real, it is happening, and these people have been there under interogation for years. If you have any humanity in you whatsoever, you cannot dismiss this.

Why'd you have to phrase it like this? :(

/not saying you're wrong
//just afraid of what it will mean when we do dismiss it
 
2006-05-19 04:59:33 PM  
Tatsuma:
If someone snatches me from my home, brings me to prison, torture me for five years...

Torture? Hey, I thought we agreed to call it Freedom Discomfort.
 
2006-05-19 05:00:18 PM  
untrustworthy [TotalFark]

The constitution doesn't extend beyond our borders even if you are a citizen.

The Founding Fathers conceived the Bill of Rights as a declaration of universal principles that pertained to all human beings regardless of their nationality. That's why they talked about unaliable rights. Those rights could be denied, but they could neither be granted nor surrendered. They persisted regardless and it was the duty of governments (not just ours, all governments) to respect that. Any government that failed to do so was guilty of tyranny, which is why we were justified in breaking away from England.

The purpose of the Bill of Rights was to create a non-exhaustive ennumeration of those rights in order to provide our government with specific guidlines as to what laws we could and coult not make. It is no accident that the primary attribute of the Bill of Rights is that it limits the authority of government rather than to imposing rules on the citizenry.

The Constitution, however, neither grants right or delimits them, nor does it circumscribe them by whether or not one is a citizen or whether or not one is within the borders of the nation or not.

The philosophical cornerstone of our nation is that principle that all people have inherant rights that we share in common, including the right to a fair trial. The fathers of the nation would have categorically rejected the idea that the principles of due process and civil rights only apply to certain people in certain locales at certain times.
 
2006-05-19 05:16:08 PM  
Cuyose

Lets say we mucked up with detaining a group of middle eastern males that we can stipultate had nothing to do harming americans nor planning to harm any americans. [...] Through interrogations of other inmates, we now find out (justifiably so perhaps) that this group now hates us and credible eveidence now exists that they in fact do plan on harming americans as soon as they are released.

Do you
a)Awknowledge that the original mistake trumps all and release them. Potentially leading to the deaths of some americans by thier hands.

b)Keep them detained. Potentially detaining someone that might not have acted on thier plans?


Rephrase the question.

You mistakenly accuse someone of raping your wife (you thought it was him but DNA has conclusively demonstrated that you were in error). Interviews with the guards indicate that the may now (understandably) hates you and that he may well want to seek revenge upon his release.

Should the courts:

1) Release him because he is innocent of the crime he's been accused of
2) Continue to detain him on suspicion that he may now pose a threat to you and your wife

As much as you might like to keep the guy detained, it would be a gross injustice to continue holding him for a crime that he did not commit. Now, if you can get solid evidence that he actually is planning on causing you and your wife harm, you have other options. You can get a restraining order, you can charge him with conspiracy to commit a crime if he's discussed this with anyone else, and you could even ask the police to keep tabs on him.

You may not, however, continue to detain him.

Holding prisoners in gitmo on the theory that now they might pose a threat to us would only to to purpetuate a gross miscarriage of justice. Unless the government can actually demonstrate criminal activity in a court of law (which would include subsequent conspiracies to commit acts of terror that were planned once they had been captured), the rule of law and the ideals of a just society trump any particular reservations that we may have.

Sometimes the right thing is neither the easy nor the safe thing.
 
2006-05-19 05:27:11 PM  
The CNN article says they used rubber bullets and a sponge grenade to subdue the prisoners.

WTF is a sponge grenade?
 
2006-05-19 05:30:11 PM  
MrStench

I dunno but it sounds like it would be fun to deploy at a frat party!
 
2006-05-19 05:39:08 PM  
It was typo. They meant spooge grenade.
 
2006-05-19 05:51:53 PM  
xebeche_tzu

Equally as fun at frat parties
 
2006-05-19 06:25:43 PM  
Hang them all - one mass HANGING.

I am so 'over' these people.

HANG THEM.
 
2006-05-19 06:37:17 PM  
I know what to do with these men. Gitmo is to easy for these guys. Make each one of these guys do a porn scene with Star Jones.

I know...It's cruel and unusual punishment but they deserve it.
 
2006-05-19 06:39:37 PM  
Gitmo Prisoners: You're not getting out until we say so, or some other country has something valuable that we want. Even if you take every tool in the shed hostage and cut their heads off on live TV, this government would sooner execute all of you then let one go.

I say sytematically slaughter their wives/children while they watch, then lock them in solitary forever. I bet that cuts down on enrollment.

No benefits=no suicide bombs.

/maybe a little harsh, but fight fire with fire instead of peanut butter for farks sake.
 
2006-05-19 06:51:39 PM  
Jeez!

First, the Senate ignores our wishes on immigration. Now, the Gitmo guards ignore our wishes on the terrorists.

If they want to die, why are we stopping them?
 
2006-05-19 06:55:16 PM  
Always nice to see the complete morons who come on late to sort out all the nuanced rhetoric by saying "Kill them all".
 
2006-05-19 07:03:02 PM  
(Obdicut wrote: Always nice to see the complete morons who come on late to sort out all the nuanced rhetoric by saying "Kill them all".)


I am so very sorry for 'coming in late' but I have this thing - its called a JOB.

As for the nuance that you so admire, I find your comment rather lacking in that regard.
 
2006-05-19 07:10:46 PM  
Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch

I wasn't trying to be nuanced-- I was pointing out that you're a moron, which is pretty straitforwards.

The desire to hang everyone in Gitmo, regardless of guilt or innocence, doesn't really need nuance in response. Just a "God, I hope you don't have kids" kinda feeling.
 
2006-05-19 07:15:12 PM  
Why do all these asshats keep insisting that our rights as Americans apply to captured foriegn enemies?

I subscribe to the Jack Bauer School of antiterrorism.

/That's Allstate's Stand. Are you in good hands?
 
2006-05-19 07:15:59 PM  
Isn't someone having "One of those days"?
 
2006-05-19 07:28:13 PM  
egarrard: If they want to die, why are we stopping them?

a belief in humanity? human rights? advanced civilization? The Constitution?

Seriously, go apply for citizenship to Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or even Pakistan. They would LOVE to have your simple minded authoritarian thinking
 
2006-05-19 07:28:19 PM  
For All the "these poor prisoners people" You know who you are, if you believe we mis treat them, they are innocent, or should be let go.
This is for you:
PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ARSE, THESE PEOPLE WANT TO DEAD .. THEY WANT YOUR WAY OF LIFE ENDED ... THEY LAUGH AT YOU AND YOUR BLEEDING MIS-DIRECTED HEARTS !
 
2006-05-19 07:28:49 PM  
Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch: Hang them all - one mass HANGING.

I am so 'over' these people.

HANG THEM.


and what are you going to charge them with?
 
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