My point is, if your not doing anything wrong, then who gives a shiat!


Alright, great. So you don't care about your 4th Amendment right. That's okay. Don't have to appreciate them all I suppose.

Are you a gun supporter? I don't have an opinion one way or another, so feel free to take that one away.

Are you religious? I'm not. Let's keep the first amendment for now.

How do you feel about freedom of speech? Well, people tend to say pretty dumb things. Let's get rid of that one. Things will be a little quieter around here.

You raise a valid point though. From now on, the Constitution and Bill of Rights can be completely disregarded. We will instead cater to the ill-advised or downright unconcerned masses. Paper is made for wiping our asses, so let's get started on Charmin Constitution Edition right away.

corn-bread: The fact remains that corporations and private parties are not bound by Constitutional restraints. They CAN restrict your free speech. They DON'T need a warrant to gather evidence against you, etc.

Actually, we totally agree on the points and, like I said, state laws vary. But I think we come to the same point: The Constitution tells the Federal Government what it cannot do to the People. Private companies are not bound by it. They don't need a warrant to gather information -- although, since there isn't a private corporation in the country that can enforce a law, saying they can gather evidence is kind of misleading. Information doesn't become evidence until it's collected by a policing agency -- but those agencies are bound by laws requiring warrants, probable cause, etc.

I wish more people would understand this distinction, too. A private institution, for example, can censor and discriminate all the fark it wants to; they aren't breaking the law. A public institution (one receiving taxpayer money) is bound by the Constitution only via the government's ability to take the money away.

And this, not the Constitution, is how the Fed controls states and public entities -- by threatening to withhold the public teat.

But I do digress. The very short bottom line in this whole fiasco is that, if the Federal Government obtained private company records without a warrant or probable cause, then they violated the Constitution and Federal Law. Period.

It doesn't matter why they did it. It doesn't matter that the President said it was okay. That latter especially doesn't matter, because it isn't the President's job to interpret the law. It's the President's job to enforce it.

Remember -- the NSA is part of the Executive Branch of Government. Constitutionally, this means they enforce the laws made by Congress, as interpreted (if applicable) by the Supreme Court. Period. They don't interpret, they don't make. They follow.

And, in this case, they can blow their "making you safer" bullshiat out their collective asses.

BTW, here's AT&T's Privacy Policy, in full:

* As a rule, we allow customers to control the disclosure of their personal information to third parties for the marketing of third-party products and services (i.e., customer consent is required for disclosure).
* We provide personal information to third parties solely in order to provide certain SBC-offered products and services. For example, we disclose certain SBC | DISH Network customers' personal information to Echostar Satellite Corporation, L.L.C. and its affiliates solely in order to provide SBC | DISH Network.
* We may share necessary personal information with third parties, such as shipping companies, to complete an order.
* An SBC-authorized agent may also use personal information to market and sell SBC-offered products and services.
* We may, where permitted by law, provide personal information to credit bureaus, or provide information and/or sell receivables to collection agencies, to obtain payment for SBC-offered products and services.
* We must disclose information, when requested, to comply with court orders or subpoenas. [emphasis added] We will also share information when necessary to prevent unlawful use of communications services, when necessary to repair network outages, and when a customer dials 911 and information regarding their location is transmitted to a public safety agency.
* Your name and number may also be transmitted and displayed on a Caller ID device unless you have elected to block such information. Please note that Caller ID Blocking does not prevent the display of your number when you dial certain business numbers, 911, 900 numbers, or toll-free 800, 888, 877 or 866 numbers.

And... nowhere in there does it say, "We will release information without warrant or subpoena to a government agency." So, AT&T's got some 'splainin' to do, and I'm trying to get ahold of them to do it right now...

Penance hates america. Penance should move to a place closer to their values, like say, Iran. Penance would be happier there, I think. None of that pesky freedom to get in the way.

/obvious

When are you Americans going to learn your government is trying to screw you every which way? That's why everyone hates you--you're too stupid to realize what your own government, the one you claim serves you, is doing to you.

In 20 years you'll all be chipped and be tracked everywhere you go by camera or GPS and you'll wonder where your freedom went. Some of you will blame the terrorists, some will blame Osama, some will blame some big corporation. The blame rests on you and your idiot forebears for allowing it to happen--for saying "I don't care, as long as I have cheap gas and cable TV."

YAWN

jwrebholz: That's why everyone hates you--you're too stupid to realize what your own government, the one you claim serves you, is doing to you.

Um, I thought everyone hated us because we were loud and obnoxious while being tourists, and invaded countries for no reason, and had idiots elected to high office.

And, if the current polls are any indication, 69% of us have realized the truth. Some, belatedly, true -- but we seem to be waking up from our long national nightmare.

Incidentally, if you're posting from the UK and are accusing us of giving in to Big Brother -- sorry, but you guys have kissed ass harder and deeper than we have. If not from the UK, fine. But at least wait until November to pass judgment.

If we boot the Republicans out of power, then begin impeachment, I'd say that America has finally turned the corner.

If we don't... um... Vancouver and Toronto are really, really nice cities. So are Melbourne and Sydney. And Costa Rica has very cheap property...

When are you Americans going to learn your government is trying to screw you every which way? That's why everyone hates you--you're too stupid to realize what your own government, the one you claim serves you, is doing to you.

And where do you live that is so absolutely perfect?

Hmm, months ago, there was no spying on americans.
5 months ago, they were only recording call out of the country.
This week they are recording what numbers you call. i give it 4 months till recording of all conversations between americans is leaked.

i cant beleive that people are stupid enough to beleive anything this president, his adminstration, or any government entity he has control is is tell the american people the truth.

They claim this is in the best interests of the country. Honestly, my best interests were ignored prior to 9/11 when they had a chance to stop the terrorists. they couldnt do that, so to me this adminstration is the enemy of this country, and its freedom.

//prepares for nsa to wisk me away to be tortured

BwaHaHaAAA!!! I love Canada! (Farkers always welcome btw)

/// rolls joint

Bigedmond: i cant beleive that people are stupid enough to beleive anything this president, his adminstration, or any government entity he has control is is tell the american people the truth.

Who says we do?

Q: How do you know George Bush is lying?
A: Dick Cheney's lips are moving.

But, as I've noted above in this thread, since this TelCo phone call suck did not discriminate, and Reps and Senators may have had their phone calls tapped illegally as well, I expect a major shiatstorm to start. With any luck, this will be the shiatstorm that brings this administration down forever.

Fingers crossed...

And, to really fark with the NSA, we should start every conversation with "Allah Ackbar", and end it with "George Bush is God".

You know -- just to fark with those idiots...

Frankly, jwrebholz, I wouldn't live in Europe, Canada, Mexico, or some other third world hell hole if you gave me a billion dollars to move there. If the US is so bad, why does the world, whenever there is a major disaster or catastrophic war or plague, come running to us for $$$$. If the US is so hated, why do WE have an illegal immigration problem, and Russia is telling its citizens to fornicate more because they can't get anyone to stay. The US may be run by a bunch of ass smelling numbnuts in Washington, but I would much rather live here than in the socialistic craphole that is Europe, where the average unemployment rate is 10-12%, taxes are 50-60% of Gross income, and riots break out on a monthly basis because *shock* Euros are just as racist as Americans. In my opinion, before you idiot foreigners blog about how bad the US is, maybe you should get your own houses in order first, and maybe provide a few jobs to YOUR poor so they don't immigrate to the US illegaly anymore.

Millions of phone numbers with no identifying information. Unless some pattern developed that caused them to want to know the identity of a caller (or callers), it would make no sense to backfill the identifying information from other sources. If they do want to know the identity of certain callers, they probably get it. There is still no indication that the content of any domestic calls are being monitored.

All in all - sound and fury signifying nothing.

HeliumAddict: BwaHaHaAAA!!! I love Canada! (Farkers always welcome btw)

Oh, just wait. We'll have the last laugh.

Just wait until you have dusgruntled Texans and Ohioans and Minnesotans streaming across your borders willing to "do the jobs Canadians aren't willing to do"; some desperate to get the medical care American hospitals (because of an inefficient and corrupt system) can't provide; anxious to get away from an authoritarian police presence and it's associated state prison industry; ubiquitous government surveillance into nearly every facet of their lives; sick of waiting for their turn in the soon-to-be-revived debtor's prisons.

THEN who'll be laughing? Huh? AAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!... HAHahha... haha... huh.......wait.

Sigh.

The government also has the largest collection of zip codes.... even yours.

I can't understand what everyone is foaming at the mouth about the government having the records of peoples phone calls while at the same time many of those same people are talking loudly an their cell phones for all to hear pissing everyone off within a 30 foot radius.

If you use your cell phone in a public place then it only makes sense that your phone records should also be in the public domain. If you choose to let half of your phone conversation audible to everyone within a 30 foot radius you have no right to complain about the government's data collection policies.

\STFU!

HappyDaddy: Millions of phone numbers with no identifying information... All in all - sound and fury signifying nothing.

Dude, last I checked, a phone number was pretty much identifying information. If you don't think it is, I dare you to post yours right here, right now...

Asswipe.

Lerxst2k:

I don't have a cell phone, so piss off.

Lerxst2k: If you use your cell phone in a public place then it only makes sense that your phone records should also be in the public domain.

So, um... are you sitting around in public places with a tape-recorder or something? 'Cause, in a lot of states, that would actually be illegal. And, if you didn't record but tried to report the info in court, you'd be kicked our real fast as hearsay evidence.

Sorry, dude. But a loudmouth asshole in a mall does not invalidate the 4th Amendment. Not for me, at least. And, as has been pointed out before in this thread, just because you want to give up your Constitutional Rights doesn't mean I do.

Note: some loudmouth is only giving up one half the conversation. What's being said on the other end of the line is NOT public domain.

Dickwit.

I wonder how many times the NSA database has crashed due to thousands of drunken teenagers calling 867-five-three-ohhh-nnnnniiiiinnnnee....

ILoveLamp:867-five-three-ohhh-nnnnniiiiinnnnee....

867 is the area code for the Yukon Territories, but the prefix 530 doesn't exist there.

Oh well. Another urban legend bites the dust...

Nowhereman

I'm waiting for the article about the DoD scanning people's computers. Here's my story. One morning I was going to play a game and I logged into my router, I get an error message saying the router was already being remotely administrated by 140.xxx.xxx.xxx I do an ip lookup and it turns out that the department of defense is in my computer looking around. On the ip lookup page it shows a phone number for the network administrator, I call it thinking I'd get a machine, but I got a live person. After panicking and being paranoid for about 10 minutes I found out this is actually a commmon occurence.

Um, having been in networking for about 10 years, no. It is not. At least not on my level. (I.E. and education institution with a core router that straddles Internet 1 and 2). And in all my years of running an ISP in my basement I have not had Uncle Sam grace me with his watchful eyes.

Methinks there was a bit more going in.

jpbreon



My AK-47 and the will to use it stops alot of state troopers. Doesn't do so well against a B-2 Spirit bomber or an M1A1 tank that the federal government uses.

Look, I know you hate the idea of weakened federal government. That's why I hate both of the main parties - they both are pond scum that are drunk with their extreme power. I want California to leave the Union. I want the US to hurt for its nastiness and corruption. I don't give a damn about any other place in the US but where I live. I don't want to have a pile of power hungry dickheads from 1500 miles away telling me I can't smoke what I want or say what I want.

And I'm going to be one of the first to sign up for the "fascists" that come to keep idiots like you in line you stupid, selfish, dickhead.

You're really not that bright. Thank God eraser8 smacked you down like that. Maybe you'll wise up.

I honestly couldn't care less. In fact, I think it's about time they started mining data.

People that are freaking over this need to get their priorities straight. There are data sets out there that contain much more info about you than phone records ever could if you've ever been to a doctor or used a credit card, which are sold, shared and mined like crazy by anyone who can afford to buy them.

President Bush collecting data on all of our phonecalls is outrageous and should be illegal. The phone companies should be required to destroy our monthly phone records upon receipt of payment of our bill.

JB-NoHo

And, to really fark with the NSA, we should start every conversation with "Allah Ackbar", and end it with "George Bush is God".

I prefer answering the phone "Regime change begins at home."

And the creepy part I'm copying the idea from a former Special Forces guy.

theFword

The government also has the largest collection of zip codes.... even yours.

Yes, but if they had a log of who sent who letters to which address you would be up in arms.

Republicans think the Fourth Amendment is a legal technicality.

So what? If it helps frevent my lungs turning to jelly in some islamic poison gas cloud, then I'm all for it.

I don't think the democrats are going to be happy until we just give up - just say to the world, "Here's our country. Just come take it. We don't deserve it anyway."

JB-NoHo: Dude, last I checked, a phone number was pretty much identifying information.


Perhaps you should check again. By itself, a phone number is, well, a number. Additional steps have to be taken in order to associate that number with a person. Sure, it's easy to do. My point was (is) that the program described is not one where making that association makes any sense, nor would it be practical, except in those discrete cases where there was some reason that the association would be potentially useful in taking additional investigative steps.

Asswipe? How old are you, 13?

itdood: I honestly couldn't care less. In fact, I think it's about time they started mining data.

People that are freaking over this need to get their priorities straight. There are data sets out there that contain much more info about you than phone records ever could if you've ever been to a doctor or used a credit card, which are sold, shared and mined like crazy by anyone who can afford to buy them.

Then you need to wise up: this is something different. We could argue all day about the morality and desireability of private institutions collecting "metrics" of many facets of our public and often private lives, but that's not the prime issue here.

What we have here is a push for a policy of private companies acting as proxies for the government; collecting and disseminating data that is not only personal, but can be used in a COURT OF LAW when, if the govnermnent had used these methods directly, it would be inadmissable and perhaps even illegal.

Like I said; I've been vocal in my opposition to our loss of privacy at the hands of private enterprises, but this is troubling on a much higher level and is NOT to be dismissed simply because our privacy is being undermined in other ways by NGOs; that's a silly argument.

Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch:: So what? If it helps frevent my lungs turning to jelly in some islamic poison gas cloud, then I'm all for it.

I don't think the democrats are going to be happy until we just give up - just say to the world, "Here's our country. Just come take it. We don't deserve it anyway."

Gawd, you're such a poor deluded asshole, aren't you? Do you want the government to put those cameras in your house? Some "it's no biggie" moran answer that question now, please.

Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch

Coward.

"Republicans think the Fourth Amendment is a legal technicality."

So does the IRS and no self respecting democrat would ever want to get rid of the progressive income tax - enshrined as it is in the communist manifesto.

The IRS has been ignoring the 4th and 5th amendents for 100 years and only now to dems feel they're being violated. Its pretty funny.

'Some "it's no biggie" moran answer that question now, please.'


Is that supposed to be a sentence... moran?

Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch

Gee, that's really interesting. Irrelevent, but interesting.

Except for the bit about the communist manifesto which makes you look like a loon.

HappyDaddy: Asswipe? How old are you, 13?

Yeah, I wish Daddy. If I were 13, I'd be hitting you up on MySpace and probably getting a positive response.

A phone number is enough of an identifier that nobody has any business giving it to the government. And, ultimately, the government has no right to this information without a warrant and probable cause.

If you don't think so, post your farking phone number right here, right now -- area code and all. Put up or shut up. farkface.

"Coward."


I really don't think I care for that tone.

It gets better folks.

After he signed the "Patriot Act" renewal he waited for all of the reporters to leave and issued a "Signing Statement". In the statement he states his intentions to completely ignore any section of the "Patriot Act" that require accountability or judicial review.

Link (pops)

'Except for the bit about the communist manifesto which makes you look like a loon.'


Read the communist manifesto and then get back to me. That is... unless you're a coward.

awesome. everyone in this country who has family in the non-werstern world has just been criminalized for keeping in touch.

Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch: Is that supposed to be a sentence... moran?

Here's the sentence: if you think that giving your private info out is no big deal, post your phone number here, now. Area code and all. 'Cause, if you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't care who has that info, right?

Now, if you don't post your phone number -- why not? Privacy issues? Well then...

Which part of "hypocrite" don't you understand?

/And, before you try to play Et Tu, Brute -- I'm not posting my number here, because it's private. But you seem to think it isn't, so -- put up or shut up.

JB-NoHo: A phone number is enough of an identifier that nobody has any business giving it to the government. And, ultimately, the government has no right to this information without a warrant and probable cause.


Lots of phone numbers are in telephone books, and addresses. When was the last time someone asked you if that was ok? Poopyhead.

You still seem to be missing my central point - a telephone number, by itself, does not identify anyone. If I were to list my telephone number here, it would not tell you who I am. You could find out readily enough, but only by taking additional steps to do so. Buttface.

JB-NoHo, the phone company already has my phone number and the government already knows my address, social, DOB, etc.

In fact, because I have actually had a traffic ticket in my life, the government knows my phone number too.

Guess what? The sun came up this morning and the world is still turning.

Its not the end of the world.

Personally, I would feel much safer from The Terrorists if they just "chipped" everybody.