Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch: When you've been killed by an act of terrorism, do you think that your civil rights will be violated then? I can think of roughly 3,000 New Yorkers, airline passengers and pentagon staff who might think so.

The problem with that is, the 9/11 commission has stated that we already had enough information (pre-PATRIOT Act) to stop the attacks, but the intelligence community failed, mostly due to bureaucracy.

Secondly, even here in NY, you're chances of getting killed in a terror attack are miniscule. And even if they weren't, its still not worth giving up the civil rights that are one of the great things about this country.

Secondly, even here in NY, you're chances of getting killed in a terror attack are miniscule. And even if they weren't, its still not worth giving up the civil rights that are one of the great things about this country.

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hey shut up! we're toooo free here! im going to china where i can be REALLY SAFE from them turrists

Okay, signing off now -- but all you Sugar_Pie_Honey_Nazi bashers...

(drunken voice) I LOVE YOU GUYS...

Carry on. See you in about eight hours...

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Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch


Many of us older adults know that already. What's amusing is the suddeness of this newfound 'outrage'.

Its so, like, in vogue this season.
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The majority of the people are just finding out about Echelon, but as I said the phone records thing goes way beyond. The NSA, like the CIA, doesn't have the authority to spy on domestic communications and persons.

Well, up untill very recently, they didn't.

My grandfather survived Nazi Germany. He was wanted by the Gestapo, and was on the run untill the end of the war. He told me what to watch out for in regards to the chain of events that leads to things like the rise of Nazi power in Germany from the perspective of someone who saw it happening from the inside in his own country. Those chains of events are happening here, and happening now. As I said, you, and people like you, are part of the problem.

It's only a matter of time untill we will need to get permission to travel in order to keep those nasty terrorists from freely moving around. It's only a matter of time untill citizens start reporting their fellow citizens for suspected terrorist activity. It's only a matter of time untill the Secret Police start knocking on doors.

The progression has already started. The form this time around, as it always is, is more insidious than the prior form of the police state, but it is coming. If you stop and listen well you can already hear the cadence of the jackboots.

"the only way the govern us is the way theyre governing you, through fear."


Uh, noooooo... I would be afraid if we weren't doing something to protect ourselves. We are: in Afganistan, Iraq, at sea, etc... and most important of all, here.

Thus, I can live my life without fear.

Many of you, on the other hand; I think actually are suffering from a problem with fear. Adfter all, its fear that generates anger and there are some serious little red-faced tantrums getting thrown this morning.

SpacePunk: He told me what to watch out for in regards to the chain of events that leads to things like the rise of Nazi power in Germany from the perspective of someone who saw it happening from the inside in his own country. Those chains of events are happening here, and happening now. As I said, you, and people like you, are part of the problem.

Gmail in profile. Can you tell me what your grandfather told you to watch out for?

Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch: Thus, I can live my life without fear.

If you're not afraid, then why does the government need more power?

Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch: What's amusing is the suddeness of this newfound 'outrage'.

Its so, like, in vogue this season.

In general, people are more aware nowadays. It's just that cognitive dissonance takes over on some issues because people are also more polarized nowadays.

And of course, whenever something like this comes out, it's pretty easy to go back and find Bush saying "We don't do X" when all along, he's been doing X.

Clinton didn't exactly have an easy time in his second term, if you recall, but at least the things Bush is being attacked over are substantive.

It's only a matter of time untill we will need to get permission to travel in order to keep those nasty terrorists from freely moving around. It's only a matter of time untill citizens start reporting their fellow citizens for suspected terrorist activity. It's only a matter of time untill the Secret Police start knocking on doors.

The progression has already started. The form this time around, as it always is, is more insidious than the prior form of the police state, but it is coming. If you stop and listen well you can already hear the cadence of the jackboots.
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hey hey hey, just because our situation resemebles the beginning of NAZI germany, along with many other police states, doesnt mean that we cant be super apoligetic about it!

I mean hey, until the concentration/forced labor camps come, its not AS BAD, right? guys?

'Secondly, even here in NY, you're chances of getting killed in a terror attack are miniscule. And even if they weren't, its still not worth giving up the civil rights that are one of the great things about this country.'


What civil rights are you giving up that the IRS, the War on Drugs and DUI checkpoints didn't do away with a long time ago?

Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch
When you've been killed by an act of terrorism, do you think that your civil rights will be violated then?

You don't HAVE civil rights when you're dead!

I can think of roughly 3,000 New Yorkers, airline passengers and pentagon staff who might think so.

I don't think they do. You don't think when you're dead, either.

Thus, I can live my life without fear.

I find that hard to believe from someone who would theoretically bend over so DHS or NSA can cram a transmitter up their ass.

"Thus, I can live my life without fear."

"Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch: When you've been killed by an act of terrorism, do you think that your civil rights will be violated then? I can think of roughly 3,000 New Yorkers, airline passengers and pentagon staff who might think so."
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oh how could have i mistook that for fear?

youre whole argument isnt based on fear of a terrorist attack....you just really, really like spying and think its neat!

What civil rights are you giving up that the IRS, the War on Drugs and DUI checkpoints didn't do away with a long time ago?
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translation: "our country has bad policies, so who cares about more?"

muninsfire


Those chains of events are happening here, and happening now. As I said, you, and people like you, are part of the problem.

Right again, as usual. These ninnies who want to hide between Bush's legs like little children are not worth the lives the Amerian Revolutionaries gave up so they could have a country of their own.

This is all moot.

Why?

Because HE DOESN'T CARE.

He couldn't care less if what the goverment is doing is legal or not. He's told the world that he doesn't care. If he did, everything would go through the proper judicial review and the government would show cause.

It's that simple.

'If you're not afraid, then why does the government need more power?'


When did the government gain additional power?

SpacePunk

If your grandfather hasn't written a book or anything down about that he should.

There are very few books written by secretly anti-Nazi Germans who saw what horrors were happening in their country in real time.

Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch: What civil rights are you giving up that the IRS, the War on Drugs and DUI checkpoints didn't do away with a long time ago?

Well, since the Income Tax is constitutional, drugs are illegal, and DUI checkpoints are also constitutional, I'd say none.

But wiretapping without a warrant is illegal, and recording conversations and mining information where the communication had the expectation of privacy violate the 4th Amendment.

Why aren't you complaining about that, instead of just rationalizing?

/never mind, we all know the answer

When did the government gain additional power?

LOL......

Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch: When did the government gain additional power?

FYI: Common etiquitte of Fark threads states that when you quote someone, put their handle before the quote. This enables people to find out where they've been quoted, which is especially important in long, multithreaded discussions.

The government took additional powers for itself when Bush allowed the NSA, which originally was not allowed to operate domestically [ at least one end of all intercepted communications was required to be overseas ] and gave them the power to conduct domestic surveillance.

Face facts: You're so afraid of the terrorists that you're giving up *my* rights for *your* security.

Don't give up what isn't yours to give.

"When did the government gain additional power?"

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hahaha shuck and jive, shuck and jive....

the bottom line is you and alot of other people are willing to look the other way while our gov tramples our freedom, just so you can FEEL safe. and on that note, you realize you can never be safe from terrorism right? its an IDEAL, one that will never go away as long as there are humans on this planet.

how far exactly are you willing to let them take this?
"as far as nessecary" youll say. well whos to decide that? the terrorists? the administrators? or the people theyre supposed to be working for

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.

- James Madison

Sugar_Pie_Honeybunch: When did the government gain additional power?

Have you actually read the "Patriot Act" or a synopsis of it? Pay close attention to Section 215.

Link (pops)

PottyMcNugg: Ok, so please explain to me how every person in America is a person of interest in an ongoing investigation.


Damn this is getting tiresome.

They aren't. What the NSA is apparently getting is phone numbers without knowing whose is whose. A pen register is tied to a phone number, the owner of which is known to the law enforcement agency. If the NSA determines through its mining that there is a pattern of calls of sufficient interest that it wishes to take the matter to the step of associating a phone number with its owner, I think they should have to have a court order pursuant to the ECPA.

I love all these republicans who say they aren't worried because they have nothing to hide and then freak out of because they have to register their guns. Fark with their privacy, fark with their free speach - that's fine, just don't mention their guns!

muninsfire

Example:

If you're getting off of a plane that's on fire, don't stop to get your bags. I'm pretty sure that you're not carrying anything that's worth your life.

I'm DAMN sure you're not carrying anything that's worth MY life so get the fark out of my way.

Mr. Buzzard: If you're getting off of a plane that's on fire, don't stop to get your bags. I'm pretty sure that you're not carrying anything that's worth your life.

I'm DAMN sure you're not carrying anything that's worth MY life so get the fark out of my way.

Yes, exactly. You've hit the nail on the head.

This is a democracy. Unless you've received votes in an election, you have zero--ABSOLUTELY NO--right to speak for anyone else.

/Exceptions for power of attorney, etc. Those are legislated.
//Well. This *was* a democracy. I'm not too sure what it is these days.

So I take it that terrorists use an easy-to-identify "pattern of calls of sufficient interest" that can be easily gleaned through data mining and not be mistaken for normal, law-abiding Americans.


After that we'll all ride unicorns with the leprechauns on our magic journey to fairyland.

muninsfire wrote: FYI: Common etiquitte of Fark threads states that when you quote someone, put their handle before the quote. This enables people to find out where they've been quoted, which is especially important in long, multithreaded discussions.

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That's a good idea. I'll do that from now on. I'm still new here.

CAT LIKE TYPING DETECTED

Mr. Clarence Butterworth:

So I take it that terrorists use an easy-to-identify "pattern of calls of sufficient interest" that can be easily gleaned through data mining and not be mistaken for normal, law-abiding Americans.


After that we'll all ride unicorns with the leprechauns on our magic journey to fairyland.
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Ok.

Let me just type this up on my invisible typewriter!

*HUMMING WHILE PUSHING INVISIBLE KEYS*

Crackpot!

DUI Checkpoints should not be Constitutional. Game over.

Score:

Government-1
People-0

Rann Xerox: When the moderator asked the question "Would you feel the same way if a democrat was president and did this?", the republican caller would go "uh....uh......uh" and have a cranial brain cramp.

Your phrasing amused me--especially 'cranial brain cramp'.

And goddamnit, that coffee was hot. Now I have scorched lips.

Mr. Clarence Butterworth: So I take it that terrorists use an easy-to-identify "pattern of calls of sufficient interest" that can be easily gleaned through data mining and not be mistaken for normal, law-abiding Americans.

I have no idea. I don't care how easy or difficult it may be. If the government wants to know that I called you, it has to get a court order pursuant to the ECPA.

Mr. Clarence Butterworth:
So I take it that terrorists use an easy-to-identify "pattern of calls of sufficient interest" that can be easily gleaned through data mining and not be mistaken for normal, law-abiding Americans.


After that we'll all ride unicorns with the leprechauns on our magic journey to fairyland.

You see, they're not looking for a pattern. If they THINK someone is a terrorist they can go back and look at EVERYONE that has called them and who they've called.

USA Today's timing is perfect.
They should be considered a true paper of the people for spilling this info before this arsewipe is head of the CIA


Red Dead On Arrival.

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Mr. Clarence Butterworth


SpacePunk

If your grandfather hasn't written a book or anything down about that he should.

There are very few books written by secretly anti-Nazi Germans who saw what horrors were happening in their country in real time.
----------------------------


He died in 1996, old, and still bitter about Germany. Actually, bitter is kind of an understatement. Extremely pissed off would be a better description. He was pressed into making bomb sights early on in the war, but he and a few other 'fine tools mechanics' made them in such a way that they could never be calibrated correctly (probalby inadvertenly causing civilian deaths with missed ordinance, but that's a moral choice... but, the Nazis were pretty indiscrimate about their bombing anyway). A 'friend' of his ratted him out to the Gestapo so he had to go into hiding in the Black Forest.

2006-05-12 10:14:41 AM HappyDaddy


PottyMcNugg: Ok, so please explain to me how every person in America is a person of interest in an ongoing investigation.


Damn this is getting tiresome.


What the NSA is apparently getting is phone numbers without knowing whose is whose. A pen register is tied to a phone number, the owner of which is known to the law enforcement agency. If the NSA determines through its mining that there is a pattern of calls of sufficient interest that it wishes to take the matter to the step of associating a phone number with its owner, I think they should have to have a court order pursuant to the ECPA.

Or they could just look it up in the phone book.

Spin it all you want - you're being spied on.

I try to use terrorism or terrorist in every phone call. Liberally sprinkled with the use of terms such as bomb and nuclear.

I am on their watch list I am sure. I gar-on-tee...

--ck

Z_since_1516 wrote: 'the bottom line is you and alot of other people are willing to look the other way while our gov tramples our freedom'

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Lefties have been doing that for 100 years so that 'social justice' can be implemented via the communist income tax. I would be much, much more impressed with this newfound concern over civil liberties if I had seen it at any time before now.

Unfortunately, the federal government DOES grant itself new functions all the time.

There shouldn't be social security, there shouldn't be an NEA, there shouldn't be a Dept. of Education and so on. The federal government is like the Terminator. You can't turn it off. Those gains in function only come when all three branches cooperate, not to mention the population as a whole.

As for power, it has the same power it had the day it was created.

If this national security operation is determined to be out of line, it will be corrected - I can assure you of that.

The sky isn't falling.

So RATM weren't just making good music in the 90's...

If this national security operation is determined to be out of line, it will be corrected - I can assure you of that.

I assure you. It won't. Perhaps it requires an understanding of the standing to sue, separation of powers and the ridiculousness of legislative oversight.

everyone remember: you have to choose, you can have freedom or you can have security, but you can't have both.


/foremost lie that has been put forth by this administration

Some of you guys don't "get it".


Some of you seem to be thinking that what this is a giant phone book, linking your name to your phone number, etc.

NO. that's NOT what it is. It's a database of whom you called when, and who called you. It's rivate phone records being mined by big brother to detect criminal activity. I have yet to hear someone deny this, and it's VERY WORRISOME.

If it's true, speak out against it, don't pretend it's not an unreasonable search.

HappyDaddy: Damn this is getting tiresome.

It should, as you haven't given a definition that does not violate the 4th amendment. But I digress, moving on to substance:

They aren't. What the NSA is apparently getting is phone numbers without knowing whose is whose. A pen register is tied to a phone number, the owner of which is known to the law enforcement agency. If the NSA determines through its mining that there is a pattern of calls of sufficient interest that it wishes to take the matter to the step of associating a phone number with its owner, I think they should have to have a court order pursuant to the ECPA.

Ok, so if they are monitoring your calls, without a warrant, without justification, LOOKING FOR THE JUSTIFICATION, isn't that illegal?

The 4th Amendment states that "upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized" is what this process would have to adhere to in order to be in agreement with our constitution. I don't see how it does.

If the government wants to know that I called you, it has to get a court order pursuant to the ECPA.

Except that because of this DB, it doesn't, and won't, and knows that you called him. See, you agree with me.