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(Some Guy)   Four year study by British military finds you can want to believe all you want, but there are no UFOs out there   (news.viewlondon.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Obvious  
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4689 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2006 at 2:49 PM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-05-07 04:41:32 PM  
Grotfabrieken Rubbishhausen: Related links
* Roasted vegetables bad for teeth



Is THAT what happened?
 
2006-05-07 04:42:42 PM  
Heh, look at it logically. Some alien intelligence knows we are here and monitors us a bit before dropping in.

First they see that we humans are so violent that we will kill each other for almost any possible reason.

Next they see that when we aren't killing each other we lie, steal, cheat and enjoy the misery of other humans.

Lastly our prized individualism means that they can have an agreement with one of us, that won't apply to another of us, and may very well cause a third to start killing.

So they decide we're insane, and they move on.
 
2006-05-07 04:58:27 PM  
sirgrim:In other news, Philip Morris Morley Tobacco ran a study that suggests cigarettes fight cancer and extend lifespan.

Fixed that for ya.
 
2006-05-07 05:00:42 PM  
Shrug. I'll bet I've worked on a lot more military engineering projects than you. It's not being a luddite to say that I don't make crazed leaps of assumption based on incomplete data.

You sure have (done more military (or otherwise) engineering projects than I have)... I don't even play with the guts of my own car... I leave it to the guys who do that stuff for living.

These aren't assumptions I've made, myself, and that's why i'm having my fun with you... they're the published works/(assumptions if you like) of students and faculty at various universities and other--somewhat more squishy--folk who've resorted to publishing books instead of getting official recognition (something other better-understood-after-they're-dead folk had to go through in the past, though this is by no means an all inclusive distinction).

As a bright guy who did very well by himself with those same physics courses...with instinct enough to ~get~ why my leg works when I kick a soccer ball without having to draft out all of the equations involved, and yet the ball still goes almost exact where I meant it to go...who only mildly worries about the forces of lift and drag pushing and pulling at the economy jet I have to fly to and from DC...I read, I think, and though they are assumptions, and it is all barely even qualifiable as theory (science fact is actually a very rare thing, and we live out or lives on theory every day), I find that it makes some guts sense to me and the explanations given explain something I've seen with my own eyes...

If you are curious, you can look up zero point under your own steam... You can agree or disagree with them to your heart's content. If they can contain the fuel or energy needed to pull of what has been seen pulled off (and this is something you can doubt as much as you like, but have no control over whatsoever), then its an energy source of fantastic potential and it doesn't matter what the source is, it's still a very dirty thing to be keeping from a world that's barrelling headlong into an energy crisis many might not survive otherwise. Assumptions aside, the aliens is still the 'nicer' avenue of thought.

Anyhow, I'm an immovable rock as far as you are concerned... I've been wrong about things before when people told me i was wrong... and I've been right before about things when people told me I was wrong. But the guns I've stuck by haven't done me any serious harm and have led me a life I'd not risk trading for any other. Take from that what you will, it's all the same to me. The worst that could happen is that i'd get a little irritated by your incessant replies.

But the plasma mind control really does make more sense, doesn't it? If I were as you say I am, I, for one, would welcome our new plasma mind control overlords.
 
2006-05-07 05:01:38 PM  
Heh, look at it logically. Some alien intelligence knows we are here and monitors us a bit before dropping in.

First they see that we humans are so violent that we will kill each other for almost any possible reason.

Next they see that when we aren't killing each other we lie, steal, cheat and enjoy the misery of other humans.

Lastly our prized individualism means that they can have an agreement with one of us, that won't apply to another of us, and may very well cause a third to start killing.

So they decide we're insane, and they move on.


For all the humor here, that's not an unwise sentiment
 
2006-05-07 05:11:40 PM  
emagery: We're very very very noisy... for the last 100 years we've been pouring indiscriminant radiation in the form of radio and broadcast TV and such out into space.

that means, there are over 5000 stars (Within 30 parsecs of earth) being deafened by our shrill squawking.


Deafened? Oh hardly...
 
2006-05-07 05:15:38 PM  
jeffdo1: So they decide we're insane, and they move on.

Why does everyone always assume that if a more advanced civilization exists... it's any less violent then we are?
 
2006-05-07 05:19:34 PM  
I've said it before-- it is fairly easy to determine that if there are ET's visiting Earth, that the American (and British) governments and military do not BELIEVE that they are visiting Earth.

You can tell this by the "above ground" funding and technology decisions that are made-- if there were actually concern about the occurance of ET life as a defense issue then studies of general astronomical interest would be massively more funded.

Suppose you're a military planner and you know about visiting aliens-- all of a sudden, isn't it defense priority #1 to find out all you possibly can about any aliens you DON'T know about or who aren't visiting YET.

You can't conduct long-term research without leaving traces. We may not know (for example) what the military is DOING with Aero-spike engines, but we do know that they're doing something.

Also, we now have complete high-resolution images of the surface of a couple of nearby asteroids. We now KNOW that if aliens are visiting our solar system, nobody has stopped for a picnic on one of these rocks in the last billion years and left tire tracks bigger than 3 feet across. That's BILLION years-- no Klingons have done target practice, nobody mined for materials-- in a BILLION years. This puts a reasonable upper limit on the occurance of traveling ET's-- we do not live in Star Trek's universe.
 
2006-05-07 05:25:56 PM  
65.58.242.81*

*With purchase of any Diety of greater or equal value.
 
G2V
2006-05-07 05:36:59 PM  
emagery
here's the real point
some really weird stuff is flying around, doing stuff that is supposed to leave the pilot as a greasy paste on the inside of the cockpit according to what little physics we know.. 90 degree angle turns, 0 to 3000 in 0 secs, 3000 to 0, 3000 to 3000 after a 180 of 0 sec, etc etc etc... and all without a speck of sound... sorry, but even a funny shaped derigible (sp?) isn't gonna pull off those stunts, even if it had big and (ahem) noisy fan engines.


Not to be dismissive (believe me, I grew up believing in everything there was to believe in, I only became a skeptic around age 20), I simply don't believe this is true. I think it is far more likely that someone misinterpreted what they saw (it does obviously occur with great frequency, even if you ignore the realm of UFOs) than an alien craft came all the way to earth while circumnavigating many laws of physics. It simply seems far more probable to me, since the former requires no amazing futuristic technology, no incredible distances traversed, no fantastic fortune in aliens finding us (space is, after all, VERY big), yada yada.

All it requires is that humans make mistakes, and they do that constantly. And I'm not saying "humans are morons" because nature can do some REALLY effective illusions.

Am I saying aliens cannot have visited the earth? No. But I find it a MUCH less likely scenario, almost to the point of an impossibility.

So what are they then... they're not amorphous, i.e., not plasmatic... they retain their shape, the come back more than once, and yes. g2v, they have been caught on film...

So as said, I think they are essentially figments of imagination, or merely misinterpretations of some relatively more mundane event.

None of the UFOs caught on film that I have seen are convincingly alien craft, nor do they break the laws of physics as we know. Does weird stuff happen in the sky? Sure, but I see no reason to leap to extraterrestrials.

the question is... what is the better (i.e., less sinister) option to believe? A) that they are aliens and for whatever terror that may cause for some individuals, seem to have done no real harm... or B) they're ours, experimental, black, like the sr71 used to be.

C) They're not ours or 'theirs,' they're just something unusual or even usual that manages to confuse the viewer. Venus has done this for ages, for instance, and it isn't just because the person who got confused is an idiot.

I think one of the major problems with skepticism in the world is that people tend to think "if someone got fooled by Venus, they're a total moron! What I saw was MUCH more convincing, so it must be real."

What they don't realize is that nature can be REALLY confusing, and human senses are QUITE easily misled. Even yours, not just everyone else's.
 
G2V
2006-05-07 05:41:56 PM  
damitjim
Why does everyone always assume that if a more advanced civilization exists... it's any less violent then we are?

If it makes you feel any better, I tend to look at the historical perspective of what happens when a technologically advanced culture comes up against a less-so one, such as Europe and the New World. So I hope we don't meet any aliens for a while, because the chances of us being on a similar technological scale are pretty slim, I think.
 
2006-05-07 06:12:55 PM  
emagery: These aren't assumptions I've made, myself, and that's why i'm having my fun with you... they're the published works/(assumptions if you like) of students and faculty at various universities and other--somewhat more squishy--folk who've resorted to publishing books instead of getting official recognition (something other better-understood-after-they're-dead folk had to go through in the past, though this is by no means an all inclusive distinction).


Wow, you're right! Hey, I just went outside, looked up, and saw something unidentifiable and silvery off on the horizon. By my estimate, it was traveling at Mach 7, but making no sound. This means it has inertial dampeners, but my observed UFO was obviously powered by quantum conversion, there can be no other explanation for it. Further, I can only assume that such a craft has Tesla weapons, and carries advanced scalar death beams! Since I deduced this from my sighting, it's obvious that the current administration is keeping such technologies from us, not only destroying the environment, but also killing and empoverishing the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!!!11!!

This means the leaders of our country cannot be human!!11!! I have therefore deduced that Cheney and Bush are secretly Nazi Reptiloids seeking to overthrow the Earth, there is no other possible explanation! And, I have read all this over on Rense, so it must be true!!

//ridiculous assumptions are teh roxor!!
///so are slashies!
 
2006-05-07 06:13:12 PM  
damitjim

I wonder if intelligent species must, over time, come to understand the virtue of peace (as in the preservation of life) before they can survive long enough to make contact with others.

Just a thought.
 
2006-05-07 06:16:15 PM  
itsalladream: I wonder if intelligent species must, over time, come to understand the virtue of peace (as in the preservation of life) before they can survive long enough to make contact with others.

Just a thought.


Nice thought. Earthly man hasn't come to that conclusion after a few thousand years... why should any other species?
 
2006-05-07 06:16:33 PM  
emagery
Though, nowadays, with us teleporting information through entangled particles

Can we? As far as Im aware that cannot be done for two simple reasons (a) that the result of any measure for a particle cannot be determined beforehand (b)Timing would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to synchronise (timing is very a important problem, particularly in computing)

Example. We could split up an entangled pair and send particle B off to Sirius while leaving particle A on Earth. Then we measure the value of, say, spin for particle A knowing that particle B will instaneously assume for the opposite value for that property. So now we know that A has a spin value of Up and, after measuring, the people around Sirius also know that A has a value of Up. Great, now heres our two problems.

(a)What does it mean? As we couldnt know beforehand what spin value A would have we can't actually assign any meaning to the measurement. A could as easily have had some other spin value.

(b)Even if we could assign a meaning to it there is the timing question. Quite simply, how do we know who measured first?

To the best of my knowledge entanglement does not allow for the transmission of meaningful information. If this situation has changed since I last studied the topic I would appreciate any links to a reputable source on the process you may have.
 
2006-05-07 06:20:36 PM  
Hypnosphere: I would appreciate any links to a reputable source on the process you may have.


Here ya go: www.coasttocoastam.com
 
2006-05-07 06:28:00 PM  
Yes, more advanced civilizations tend to wipe out less advanced ones, but overall the trend is towards peaceful coexistance. As tools for communication and the transfer of technology are developed, trade of information becomes more and more valuable. WWII was this planet's last major conflict. I don't have the hard data, but I bet fewer people as a % of the whole have died from warfare in the last 30 years than at any other time in human history. Corporations continue this trend, as they exist irrespective of national boundaries. Coca cola is everywhere, and they don't like war because war kills customers.
 
2006-05-07 06:31:43 PM  
Hypnosphere: To the best of my knowledge entanglement does not allow for the transmission of meaningful information. If this situation has changed since I last studied the topic I would appreciate any links to a reputable source on the process you may have.


No, truthfully, AF has a really big budget for this sort of thing, not for instantaneous mystery space communication but for encryption and man-in-the-middle resistant comm links using entangled photons.

It's not my thing, but here is a fragment from the 2007 budget, for example:

The high data-rate optical communications project will exploit the characteristics of CCIT SLMs to dynamically generate orbital angular momentum (OAM) of photons. Using SLMS to change the OAM of photons in real-time as opposed to simply modulating the amplitude of light waves allows for significant improvement in data carrying capacity. Concepts will be developed for secure laser communications by parametrically down converting OAM states that provide higher order entangled states compared to polarization entangled states. The program will also develop system level architectures for secure free space optical communication networks.

There's some basic stuff on citebase but their server isn't responding at the moment.
 
2006-05-07 06:33:11 PM  
emagery: Though, nowadays, with us teleporting information through entangled particles (quantum entanglement, look it up), i wonder how many more decades will go by before radiation emission communication becomes defunct, and we go silent. If we can get that far in 120-150 years, it may be no wonder that our SETI people aren't hearin' anything... in astronomical terms, a civilizations EM transmission years may go by so fast, it's like a single ping, and if you aren't listening at the exact moment (that geological/astronomical blink of an eye), you'd completely miss it, and not know they were even there, as they'd (like we probably will) moved to a faster, quieter, form of remote communication.


Charles Stross' novel Accelerando offers an interesting solution to the Fermi Paradox. It assumes a Singularity is pretty much inevitable once you reach a certain point and the transhuman entities, AIs, uploads etc will undertake the construction of Matrioshka Brains.

For the minds running on these structures, processing power, high bandwidth and low latency are everything. Unfortunately, interstellar space offers low processing power, poor bandwidth and crap latency.

Any mind which did travel would be putting itself at a serious economic disadvantage. In the time they would waste travelling to and back from a neighbouring star, their competitors in their origin Matrioshka Brain would have advanced subjective aeons. So there's no point in travelling.

As for communicating, again the problem is that it takes so long for the signal to get anywhere and generate a response that you'd be a fundamentally different entity by the time a response was received. You'd have no real connection to the original transmission and the latency would be such that it offers no competitive advantage to engage in such communication.

The entities running on these Matrioshka Brains would also be seeking to make maximal usage of the energy output of a stellar system with as little inefficiency as possible. They aren't going to be putting out large amounts of noise.

The idea is that, ultimately, tool-using intelligences are succeeded by their tools and those tools have nothing to gain by going sight-seeing.
 
2006-05-07 06:57:30 PM  
I know what I saw.
 
2006-05-07 07:51:54 PM  
You can't tell me that some highly advanced civilisation decides to send bogey faced arse-primmers thousands of light years just to look at some banal desert in the USA?

Statistics prove that it's too risky and too likely that another civilisation has simply created a huge powerful telescope that can view Earthly matters from the safety of their own world.

Hence - UFOs are not alien.

That's a FACT. Deal with it peepls.
 
2006-05-07 08:13:11 PM  
guarantor: Statistics prove that it's too risky and too likely that another civilisation has simply created a huge powerful telescope that can view Earthly matters from the safety of their own world.

Really? I'd like to see proof to those 'facts' you're spewing.
 
2006-05-07 08:32:16 PM  
www.apocalypse.org
 
2006-05-07 08:38:45 PM  
erewhon
Here ya go: www.coasttocoastam.com

I must tune in to find out about the secret electronic mind control technology. Of course as they are talking about it its not really secret, which leads me to conclude that its a cover designed to throw us off the scent of the real secret mind control technology......

Anyway, thanks for the update on some of whats happening. Im glad I prefaced my comments with 'As far as Im aware', always good insurance when you're as out of touch and unread as I am. Think I'll go try to read up on whats been happening.
 
2006-05-07 08:43:15 PM  
Tell that to these guys...www.delos.fantascienza.com
 
2006-05-07 08:53:36 PM  
Monty Python probably put it best...

...So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.


That's probably more likely than we'd like to admit.
 
2006-05-07 09:17:56 PM  
Hypnosphere: Anyway, thanks for the update on some of whats happening.


I've got some links to some good full-text stuff that's cached on citebase but their server has a bad case of the 'tards, he posted a notice that they couldn't figure out WTF just yet.

Um, if you want to wander in the fields of "just what are they doing" try a Google containing some or all of: quantum entanglement Air Force satellite sidelink uninterceptable "quantum key" AFRL "man-in-the-middle".

It won't tell you a LOT (nor shall I, what little I do know, again, it's not my specialty) but if you are conversant with the technology, you can pick up a good bit and then fill in the cracks with a bit of common sense and just a tiny bit of extrapolation. This is actually really slick tech.

Oh, here is a link to a kiddie level description. It's from LANL, so it's a teensy bit more authoritative than Mr. Emagery's material from UFO Weekly. It predates the use of entanglement in data transmission, but you get an idea. Well, actually, given that it was published in 2002, I'd say it would be inaccurate to use "predates", they were well along with the entangled bits by then.
 
2006-05-07 09:26:54 PM  
this guy and his dog seem convinced:
users.gloryroad.net
 
2006-05-07 09:43:56 PM  
Achilles381: this guy and his dog seem convinced:


Alas...
 
2006-05-07 09:49:35 PM  
Achilles381: this guy and his dog seem convinced:


The analysis for this particular piece. Sorry. No UFO.
 
2006-05-07 10:35:56 PM  
erewhon - you work for the government? "what you actually saw was a luminous cloud, ball lighting, or the planet venus..."

thanks for the link, interesting reading. i still think its open to interpretation.
 
2006-05-08 12:07:57 AM  
http://www.rendlesham-incident.co.uk/26th.htm

Also check out "'The UFO's back!'" and "The Third Night", links on the left side of the first page
 
2006-05-08 12:18:05 PM  
Achilles381: erewhon - you work for the government?


Part time, I'd guess you could say. Defense contractor.

I get to see some of the stuff I just know you guys are seeing, occasionally. I still haven't ever seen anything that I thought was a bus full of little space buddies.

Art from that period was chock full of religious symbology. For example, why would you take the shepherd/dog/annunciation symbol literally but not the cows in the house? Or the antenna on infant John's head? Or the LED clock hovering over his head? Or the apples (hint) over Mary's on that lintel? Also, if you went through the english language parts of that site you saw lots of other shepherds with clouds and dogs looking up, some more overtly religious in nature, others less, all from that time period. It's like the "UFO coin" from what, 1608? There's dozens like it, but more obviously a shield. And the "It comes at an opportune time" (a mistranslation, btw) is from a Roman legend about Zeus giving this guy a shield that protects him from lightning. Some of the coins were more obviously a shield (an arm in them, for example) but they all were obviously related. Some show the shield with lightning striking it, some with an arm holding them, others have both, but all look like the object on that "UFO coin".

However, once the first "believer" sticks it on his site along with his own interpretation, it immediately becomes canon and is validated by the phrase "experts say", although oh so rarely does anyone know who the expert was.
 
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