See if you can maximize your racism, or discrimination. See how that 'works' At what point do you deficients realize this isn't a zero sum game? Are we redefining stupid?

a helicopter manual has to be at least the size of a cookbook

/wonder if it counted as a carry on

maxheck: So what was singled out?


Middle Eastern looking foriegn language speaking men reading manuals on airplanes. Makes perfect sense. These are just the type of people who blow up airplanes. Not little old ladies, not tired business travelers, not families with kids on the way back from vacation. Middle Eastern Men. Failure to watch these men carefully and invesitigate would have been criminal.

savonola

Of course, these guys are going to draw attention to themselves by reading HELICOPTER training manuals on a fixed wing jet?

What, were they planning on autorotating the airliner? Come on now. Pure ignorance. That's all it is.

Profiling is the same kind of thinking that makes us feel safer because of a color coded scare chart.

/Slashy Alert Level: Elevated
//Freedom Alert Level: Severe

Profiling is not racist. If you are looking for a serial killer look for a white male between the ages of 25 and 45. You might not always be right but statistically you would have a head start. Right now the profile for a terrorist is a young middle eastern male. 25 years ago it would have been a young hispanic male with a cuban accent. Things change. Who knows in a few years it might be a young white guy with dreadlocks, a tie dye shirt, hemp sandals listening to Fish on his Ipod. You never know.

NuclearWinter: Of course, these guys are going to draw attention to themselves by reading HELICOPTER training manuals on a fixed wing jet?


Chances are nobody noticed the specifics of the manual until after the plane landed. Anyway in the heat of the moment it may not have mattered. It is all well and good to Monday morning quarterback the decisions of the crew from the safety of our computers but we weren't there. It is a matter of balance. One party is inconvienenced briefly and the chance of the loss of 250 innocent lives is lessened. This is a fair trade as far as I am concerned. These men were not imprisoned, charged with a crime, deported, beaten or any such thing. They were incoviencenced that is all.

savonla:

Funny you should speak of little old ladies... The TSA played a nifty little trick on my 70+ year old mother and her best friend when they flew out to Hawaii in 2002, both of them little old ladies.

Mom and friend went through security, and the friend got taken aside, and questioned, and much to her surprise, they pulled a full-sized chef's knife out of her carryon.

The quick answer is that the TSA was running a test. The longer answer is that there was a freakout performed on a little old lady who decidedly *did not* pack a large knife in her luggage, but an agent in line behind her probably slipped it into her unsecured "pull-along" bag.

Again, I'd ask you if you really know what drug mules are if you're going to defend profiling, and I'd also ask if an unknowing mule who's luggage blew up a plane (like the C-4 stuffed transistor radio of Lockerbee) would be that much less effective than a Twin Towers anymore.

Based on a lot of these comments I'm starting to think a lot of people don't know where Angola is.

maxheck: Again, I'd ask you if you really know what drug mules are if you're going to defend profiling, and I'd also ask if an unknowing mule who's luggage blew up a plane (like the C-4 stuffed transistor radio of Lockerbee) would be that much less effective than a Twin Towers anymore.


I don't get your logic. It seems like you are saying that because profiling is not fool proof it should be not used at all. The purpose is to increase the odds. The drug mule argument is not really a good one inasmuch as all types of people have been persuaded to smuggle drugs. Even so my understanding is that the profile of typcial drug mule is a young hispanic woman with a flight originating in Central or South America. Apparently they catch a LOT of them. Remember finding an exception to a general rule does not negate it's validity.

Question authority, always.

Angola is in Africa. However, it is a largely Muslim nation with a history of antipathy to the United States.

So Angola, by virture of being 25% Muslim and despite being sub-saharan Africa, spawns "middle-eastern looking" men who fit the profile of terrorists. Gotcha.

I believe the first line in the TSA rulebook is "If they're brown, take 'em down."

Abagdro:

So Angola, by virture of being 25% Muslim and despite being sub-saharan Africa, spawns "middle-eastern looking" men who fit the profile of terrorists. Gotcha.

Which sort of nakes you wonder about Israel (land of Hassidics, second only to Brooklyn, by one example in this thread) and Egypt.

Hey, I dunno suppose you know what the two countries who get the most US aid are?

You have to wonder if most people realize just how complex things are....

Abagadro: So Angola, by virture of being 25% Muslim and despite being sub-saharan Africa, spawns "middle-eastern looking" men who fit the profile of terrorists. Gotcha.

First we are not dealing with Angolans in general we are dealing with a particular group of Angolans travelling in the company of men of middle eastern appearance. Angola is a primarily a black nation; however, due to the colonial history of Angola there are many races. Further, it is the Muslim minority in Angola who have much of the political and economic power and would be likely to be on such a flight. It would not be too much of an stretch, given the reaction of the flight crew, that these particular Angolans did fit the profile.

It would not be too much of an stretch

I think you've adequately shown that it is a huge stretch. Guess what, there are more Muslims in India and Indonesia than the entire Middle East combined. I guess we better "profile" them too. Heck, since 1/4th of the freaking world's population is Muslim we should just strip search anyone who doesn't look European. Just to be sure.

Oh look, it's Andrael. The guy that makes things up to win an argument when the facts don't support his position.

Earlier Andrael said that working class americans earnings have gone up over the past five years despite the fact they haven't. Once linked to evidence he quickly vacated the thread.

Run along Andrael... you offer nothing but fairytales and wishful thinking.

There was an example in the 80s when an arab muslim was fully aware he'd set off all the airport security flags. So he didn't even go to the airport.

Instead he slipped the bomb into his pregnant Irish girlfriend's luggage and told her to have a safe trip.

We know what would have happen if the alert guards had just breezed this woman through security.

Racial profiling is one tool and it does help, but it's useless if we ignore all the other options these people have. Screen everybody with nearly equal diligence.

(wonder how their kid turned out...)

Abagadro: I think you've adequately shown that it is a huge stretch. Guess what, there are more Muslims in India and Indonesia than the entire Middle East combined


Come now counselor you wouldn't make an argument like that in court now would you? You are making the tried and true argumentum ad absurdum. What I said was given the reaction of the crew who were actually present it would be safe to assume that these folks did fit the profile. They were there we were not. Also, unfortunately so long as swarthy muslims continue to attempt to blow up airplanes, the rest of the innocent folks who meet that description will come under suspicion. That's unfair but it is a fact. These guys weren't arrested, strip searched, beaten with rubber hoses, thrown into camps or anally raped with glow sticks. They were briefly detained. So why the alligator tears?

I fully support the Global War Against Literacy.

savonarola:

I don't get your logic.

Fair enough...

It seems like you are saying that because profiling is not fool proof it should be not used at all.

Well, wea ll know that absolutes have always been effective.

The purpose is to increase the odds. The drug mule argument is not really a good one inasmuch as all types of people have been persuaded to smuggle drugs. Even so my understanding is that the profile of typcial drug mule is a young hispanic woman with a flight originating in Central or South America. Apparently they catch a LOT of them. Remember finding an exception to a general rule does not negate it's validity.

The idea behind a drug mule is to pick the one that doesn't fit the profile. Expediencey might ask you to turn your hispanic g/f into a mule, but the best mules are "outside the profile." Indeed, the exception *would* be the rule.


I had a (rather naive) blonde, green-eyed all american friend who got approached as a mule, and I came down on her like a ton of bricks... Please... DO NOT do that.


Thankfully she begged off, and strangely enough the people whow were askimng weere Hindi,

Anyway (it's late, and I'm going to beg off myself) profiling is pretty close to useless.

America fights for freedom by giving it up.

/suck it Americans
//ya I know it's a little off topic
///y'all are acting crazy with fear, which is exactly what validates terrorism

Sounds so farking stupid!!!

I said was given the reaction of the crew who were actually present it would be safe to assume that these folks did fit the profile.

And this is what is known as a completely unsubstantiated assumption. Just because something happened, doesn't mean it was reasonable.

Besides, I was basing my comments on your rather silly statements about them being "middle eastern" looking when there is absolutely no indication that this is the case and is contrary to the evidence we do know. Plus imputing that because 1/4 of their country of origin is Muslim that this magically makes them fit a "profile." Your reasoning is highly flawed and is downright silly. They were detained for being foreign and looking at a book. If that is the threshold for getting detained and questioned these days, we are in farking trouble. Not the least of which being that we are freaking out over what already happened (and is extremely unlikely to happen again), not what will likely happen next.

I have "alligator tears" for what has happened to my country as it devolves into irrational paranoia.

beoswulf

(wonder how their kid turned out...)

I would guess that a child of an islamic terrorist and an IRA agent would go into a nice, stable profession - like accountancy.

/yeah, right

"In 1986, Nezar Hindawi, a Jordanian national then residing in Britain, told his pregnant Irish girlfriend to fly to Israel from London and that he would meet her there via Jordan. Before she boarded the El Al jumbo jet in London, it was discovered by airport security that the false bottom of her hand luggage concealed a bomb powerful enough to blow the jumbo jet out of the sky. She told authorities that the hand luggage was a gift from her fiance Nezar Hindawi and that she could not believe that he would knowingly endanger her or his own unborn child. When Hindawi was arrested he revealed that he was a paid agent for Syria and claimed that he had been specifically instructed by Syria to romance and then impregnate a naive woman who could be utilized as a completely unwitting human bomb and thereby more likely avoid detection by airport security (who then operated according to standardized terrorist profiles). So convincing was the evidence of Syria's hand behind this attempt to obliterate a civilian passenger plane that Britain suspended diplomatic relations with Syria for a number of years thereafter."

Here's more info, did a google.
http://www.bearpit.net/lofiversion/index.php/t2727.html

Michael Hunt: And to think, we Canuckdians have it all backward. Just try leaving an airport in Toronto without running into at least eight turbin-clad security guards.

Of course, they are Sikhs. Not many Sikh terrorists here these days.

savonola:
Right now the profile for a terrorist is a young middle eastern male. 25 years ago it would have been a young hispanic male with a cuban accent. Things change. Who knows in a few years it might be a young white guy with dreadlocks, a tie dye shirt, hemp sandals listening to Fish on his Ipod.

Or Phish, even.

"Who knows in a few years it might be a young white guy with dreadlocks, a tie dye shirt, hemp sandals listening to Fish on his Ipod.

Or Phish, even."

Isn't it Ghoti?

Abagadro: They were detained for being foreign and looking at a book.

They were detained for looking middle eastern and looking at a particular book a flight manual. They weren't just foriegn they weren't French, English, Canadian, Indian or Brazilian they fit a particular profile of people who blow up airplanes and murder thousands of people.

If you own a liquor store and it has been held up 15 times in the last year. 14 of those times by white males with shaven heads and tattoos. The next time you see a white male with a shaven head and a tattoo I think you would reach for the sawed off just a little quicker than usual. If you didn't you would be a fool. You, based on some no doubt heartfelt but completely foolhardy assumptions would if you were in power choose to bury your head in the sand and in doing so put your life, my life and the life of every other traveler at risk. Like it or not, approve or not we are at war with a middle eastern muslim nation. Precautions must be taken in wartime within the bounds of the law. This is not paranoia this is prudence.

savolona,

What part of "Angola" are you persisting in refusing to understand?

looking middle eastern

Sigh. And you know this how? They were from freaking Angola. Angolans look like this:

The book in question:

And if they are indeed terrorists and they are boning up on their avionics while they are on the freaking plane they are too inept to be much to worry about.

savonola: They were detained for looking middle eastern

so by your standards, anyone who isnt white should be detained. bravo

we are at war with a middle eastern muslim nation.

saudi arabia? iran?

and whos "we"? does that qualify as anyone who is still so blinded by hatred but unable to channel that anger in the proper directions?

MacGabhain: What part of "Angola" are you persisting in refusing to understand?


I've covered this already in previous posts. Yes, I am aware that Angola is a sub-saharan African nation with a mostly black population. I am also aware that Angola as a former colony is home to many races including many Arabs. I am further aware that Angola has a powerful Muslim minority and a deep seated enmity to the United States. My point was that the flight crew thought these passengers were suspicious and that is sufficent for me. It was worth detaining these folks briefly to ensure the lives of the passengers on that flight. I hope that clears it up for you.

Big Al: so by your standards, anyone who isnt white should be detained.

Nope. Anybody who looks middle eastern (or any color for that manner) and behaves in a manner which alarms the flight crew. We are at war with Iraq. You might have nothing against them but I assure you they would love to kill you. If you don't beleive it go on over there and volunteer to rebuild the country. We'd be seeing your beheading on a website soon enough.

savonola:

Big Al: so by your standards, anyone who isnt white should be detained.

Nope. Anybody who looks middle eastern (or any color for that manner)

you aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, are ya?

Angola has no Arab population. The largest non-African population in Angola is Portugese and that is only 30k people, less than 1%. Even the mixed-blood population in Angola still looks sub-saharan African. Claiming there are "Arabs" in Angola who look "middle eastern" is another assumption based upon absolutely nothing. Although I'm sure you are convinced the only 4 middle-eastern looking Angolans were on this particular flight.

heap: you aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, are ya?


Is that all you have? Would you care to elaborate o wise one?

MacGabhain:

savolona,

What part of "Angola" are you persisting in refusing to understand?

The part that conflicts with predetermined beliefs, like, duhhhh...

fark.

savonola:

We're not at war with Iraq any more than Angolans look middle-eastern.

Abagadro: Angola has no Arab population

Look Ace let's assume for the sake of argument that the folks here were black Africans in the company of an Israeli who looked "middle eastern". It doesn't change a farking thing. They were reading aircraft manuals and they were behaving in a manner which disturbed the crew. The crew has the final say in this matter. They were detained and released. Big deal. I am not going to second guess the crew of that flight. They saw what they saw and it was of sufficent concern for them to take action. I for one am glad they did.

I believe that is what is known as "appeal to authority." Since an authority did it, it is pefectly fine. That reasoning tend to lead to some serious problems, Ace.

Abagadro: I believe that is what is known as "appeal to authority." Since an authority did it, it is pefectly fine. That reasoning tend to lead to some serious problems, Ace.

How so? How is it that YOU are more qualified to make the call than the trained personnel on the flight? Also, you have misstated the "appeal to authority fallacy" Ace.

I'll bet that you and your weak sister cronies on this thread would be the first to raise a hue and cry about how the Bush adminstration had failed to protect the traveling public if these guys did turn out to be dangerous and nothing was done.

Why not apply a balancing test here? The impact on a few individuals vs. the safety of the crew and passengers? Is this too reasonable for you or are you so enamored of your whining knee jerk liberalism that reason has taken flight?

savanola:

Like it or not, approve or not we are at war with a middle eastern muslim nation. Precautions must be taken in wartime

Guess what?!?! You, sir are now entered into that exclusive club of Great Satan Broad Painters.

Don't you feel priveledged now?

In point of fact, we invaded a SECULAR nation. We also farked things up to the point that a notedly non-secular nation (Iran) will have far more influence from now on than we do.

And there might be just a tad bit of secular violence going on now that we popped the top on that.

We (you) got cheesed off when a secular, democratic nation voted against letting the US use their land as a staging point. That whole Turkey thing.

We haven't declared war on a muslim nation yet, but I hear the drumbeats already.

America, FARK YEAH!
We know how to kick those terrorist asses!

MacGabhain: We're not at war with Iraq any more than Angolans look middle-eastern.

There thousands of dead soldiers and Iraqia who might disagree with you on this one. Oh I get it you want to engage in some cute little semantic debate about nothing the like of which is so popular on Fark?