Weaver95
...and if they were citizens, that might means something...

That's probably something like what the King of England said when he found out all those American farkers were trying to declare independence.

CommonSenseSurrenders-

The signs on the test are in english. It says "Stop" not "Alto" on the sign even if the test is in spanish. The problem isn't that they aren't being tested on the signs in english, it is that there are cheat sheets for all the tests the DMV uses circulating around immigrant communities so many of those who pass do so because they have seen the exact same test with all the answers filled in!

scseth: I guess you have never been to Cancun, or Puerto Vallarta, or Zijuatanejo, or Guadalajara, or Ixtapa, or...

I lived in Guadalajara for a while. One third (if that) is decent with nice old European influences. The other 2/3 looks like a wretched hive of scum and villiany. I always made sure to be cautious.

/50% Mexican. Doesn't believe in condoning illegal immigration.

Croooow!: Illegally crossing the border is JUST like farking children. Thanks for your clear-headedness on this issue.

no, it's just like jaywalking, duh!

http://www.ice.gov/about/contact.htm

"To report any suspicious activity please call 1-866-347-2423. "

So if I go to Wal-Mart this afternoon, it won't be packed rafter to rafter with people? I might have to go just to see.

Or at least drive by the parking lot.

borkin: Weaver95
...and if they were citizens, that might means something...

That's probably something like what the King of England said when he found out all those American farkers were trying to declare independence.


Yeah, but the difference is that he is a king, and the vast majority of the population in this country doesn't want to give them citizenship.

Kinda a big difference when 80% of the population says "hell no" to your plans instead of a king over an ocean.

"Ugchhh, ingrates!"

Aired Cinco de Mayo 1996

7x24 - Much Apu About Nothing

3F20 audio track - 64k MP3 22kHz - 9.85MB - 21m31s (right click save as)

( tgot /and about your "on a serious note" - don't. Your trolling in the thread is much more amusing. )

Action Replay Nick "It got much less funny as more and more people expressed similar opinions seriously."


Did you consider the possibility that these people who expressed similar opinions, weren't being serious, but were being trolling A*Holes just like you?

CommonSenseSurrenders: But I'm leaning toward you being intentionally obtuse.

I was, but I saw you going down a road, so to speak, and couldnt help take advantage of it. The US has purposely designed all major traffic signs to not require any english, but use what should be universal symbols.

However, I mostly agree with you that to function with "mainstream" society in America you need to know English. My grandparents were immigrants and forced themselves to learn English to get ahead. On the same time, I can still go to neighborhoods where my grandparents used to live and not hear any English or see any signs in English. What makes this country great is that I can celebrate both worlds.

"Did you consider the possibility that these people who expressed similar opinions, weren't being serious, but were being trolling A*Holes just like you?"

Now, that's funny!

I'd say if they want residency, enlist them in the army and send'em off to Iraq. If they make it back in one piece, no scholarship, but hey, you get to stay! I saw Gangs of New York.. there's precedence (oh, they made those Irish US citizens first, then sent them off to die in the south).

I believe in legal immigration. I do not have a problem with illegal people being deported and being offered the same opportunity as everyone else to become a citizen, or get a work visa. My complaint is that the people who get deported should not be marked as FELONS. That's just plain stupid. Them becoming felons doesn't do anything for the USA except mess up our already overpopulated prison system. Totally lame and wasteful.

Boy, I wish there were more people against immigration reform who weren't total idiots. Coming here illegally means you're a criminal. This hasn't been seen as a "problem" on either side of the aisle because it's profited both corporations and wealthy individuals, left and right. But now the illegal elephant in the room just dropped a fierce deuce on the couch. Yes, "we are a nation of immigrants," but we're not as unpopulated and wide-open as we once were. That's sad, yes, but it's also reality. A couple of my suggestions:

1) Cut the red tape. Make it easier for foreign people to work here, and treat it as an INCENTIVE that they want to make money in this country - make it EASIEST for those at work and at college to come here.

2) Don't Frenchify the immigration rules. Temporary citizenship - by definition a second-class citizenship - has led Muslim youths seeking better lives to riot violently in France. America (by comparison) at least has had a far better immigration policy than most other nations.

3) Action Replay Nick, I know what you mean. I'm surprised that as liberal as I am, I'm still against giving illegal immigrants citizenship. I think America's greatest asset is not the opportunity for wealth, but our wealth of opportunity - the ability to better oneself. I'll be the first to grant that existing conditions (piss-poor wages, no health care) don't benefit most illegals - but then again, they came here illegally, what did they bring to the table? Then, my liberal side reminds me - no matter WHAT we bring to the table, America exists to offer people change. "Give us your tired, your poor..." etc. So my conclusion in this point is really that reform is absolutely necessary to give immigrants the chance to experience the (idealistic) American way, and to force their employers to pay a sufficient wage. But giving them free citizenship trivializes the efforts of people trying to cut through the red tape the legal way. So - let's get rid of the damn red tape! (easier said than done of course)

4) This country has a national language, and that's a good thing for immigrants. This isn't a "Git 'er Done!" point, it's sincere and quite intellectually sound. The two global languages right now are English and Chinese. Every sovereign nation is entitled to set national languages, and America is no different. I will never learn Spanish, and I do expect immigrants to learn English - hell, given global trends, learning English increases their job prospects, earnable wages, and quality of life. But I don't think this means abandoning cultural traditions, original language, or way of life. Both sides who refuse to accomodate coexistence of cultures make me puke blood. America truly is more like oil and vinegar - different parts that tend to separate after a while until something shakes them up again. I just hope this is another thing to shake our different parts up, reminding us that we're all here for opportunity but we all bring our distinct origins and histories with us. Neither half of this - what we were and where we now are - should be forgotten. What people don't realize is that La Raza and The Minutemen are equally idiotic in their mindset.

ElBarto79

Well said!

bikerdiva: When was the last time you wanted to buss tables for $2 an hour?
About a year ago, when I was paying my way through college.
Thanks for asking.

I have also worked those crap jobs, and I know that in some places employers will not hire me to do a crap job, even if I beg them, because they would rather hire a more subservient Mexican that they can treat like shiat and get away with it.

And if I were looking for a crap job in this town, I would be paid at least a few dollars less than I would in most other parts of the country, because there are plenty of illegals around who will work for $4-5 an hour.

Hey, who's got the tularemia sprayer? This could all be quite moot this time next month...

Yeah, yeah, you guys all bunch up for me, now say "rabbit" while the nice man spritzes the cloud out the 3rd story window...

Some stats have allready made english their official langauges, I propose we do the same thing federally.

cryinoutloud: employers will not hire me to do a crap job, even if I beg them

This is the crux of the problem. So many people on this thread are ready to lynch illegal immigrants, but the employers are the ones creating incentives for them stay illegal. Whether we want to admit it or not, we are all driven to one degree or another by money. If the only way immigrants could get these jobs is by applying for citizenship, you would see a steep drop in the amount of illegal immigrants in this country.

If you want to change behavior, look at what the incentive is for that behavior.

untrustworthy:

You claimed that we are a nation that stands for rule of law, and I simply pointed out the flaw in that sweeping statement. Sorry if you can't see that from atop your high horse.

no, you have convinced yourself that the president has broken some unspecified law because it fits with your view of the world. the facts don't really matter to people like you because you will always want to see the world as you wish it was and not how it actually is.

i am sure you were ranting that bush 'stole' the election in 2000, that the ohio vote was rugged in 2004, that bush cronies control the price of oil and that halliburton shareholders are secretly getting trillions of dollars funneled to them by the white house.

every time you find an opportunity, you will take one of your preconceived notions and say that no matter what has happened, its not as bad as when george bush did (fill in the blank with some contrived "fact" that has no real basis in fact).

so, you feel that the president, much like the illegal immigrants are lawbreakers (although no one seems to have ever specified an illegal act by the president (we know, "just wait, it will happen tomorrow when..."). you are like broken records. you can't stay on any topic without inserting some non-related reference to something you have convinced yourself that george bush is responsible for but that no one has any real proof of (but you still twist hte facts to for what you see as absolute certain proof of whatever you have convinced yourself occurred).

we get it. you can't get past the fact that george bush is president and you can come to grips that the country is doing just fine even though george bush is president (wasn't the economy supposed to have collapsed by now, the polar ice caps supposed to have melted and flooded new york city, the chinese supposed to be masters of the universe and france supposed to have emerged as the great leader of western nations)?

like i said, we get it. you can't understand how the topic of immigration reform can be separated by the rantings of harry reid and nancy pelosi trying to promote their own political fortunes from the interests of the nation. we get it, you can't say anything intelligent about immigration reform, so you parrot harry reid and nancy pelosi. its what your type does, because it makes you feel better. now, go sit with the other ADHD children at the card table and feel good about your perspective on life and allow those of us stiiling at the big people's table to have a civil discussion on a subjuct you seem unable to discuss with any level of intelligence.

Oracle of Bandwidth: Some stats have allready made english their official langauges

Is that sentence some kind of English language protest?

I'm going to rally for my right to beat up illegal aliens. In fact I'm going to take the whole day off on Friday just for that end.

/analogous?

I wonder if there would be all this furor over these illegal immigrants if they were mostly European instead of Hispanic. Seems like the 'illegal immigrant' issue is being used to disguise xenophobia/racism against non-white illegal immigrants. It's no excuse to justify it by saying it's the Hispanics who are protesting or are the majority of illegal immigrants.

English skills should not matter either. I am a legal, non-white immigrant to this country and I can speak better English than 99% of the citizens. I get my citizenship in 3 weeks and the civics test is a joke. I can ace it, but I doubt half this country could answer those questions. How about we change the laws so that everyone who wants to remain a citizen should be able to pass the citizenship test that is required to become naturalized? A ton of people would get deported to Europe, if they can even have their ancestry traced that far back.

The issue of illegality is not as clear. I think that if something is illegal, people should not do it. That doesn't mean it should be illegal; I just believe people should follow laws to maintain an orderly society. So all of you who say stuff like "What part of ILLEGAL do you not understand?!", and engage in other illegal activities like underage drinking or consuming illegal drugs, you're being quite the hypocrite. You would be better off ranting about why illegal immigration is bad instead of just blurting 'but but it's ILLEGAL!!!!'. That is hardly a good argument.

What would you anti-'illegal immigrants' say about a plan to start programs that would eventually legalize all these Hispanic workers? Would you be against it? What if the illegal immigrants were a white German or Italian family? Is this more of a 'just get these people out of my country because I hate them' issue or an actual genuine concern about people following the laws of this country? Ask yourself what angers you most when you hear about these people marching-

Are you angry that they are illegal immigrants?

OR

Are you angry that they are Hispanic/Mexican?

The reason that businesses hire illegal immigrants is not necessarily that they can pay them lower wages, but that they don't have to abide by safety regulations. If the illegal immigrant is scared of being deported, the business can get away with all kinds of unsafe practices. They don't have to enforce rules regarding steel-toed boots, dust masks, hard-hats, harnesses, etc.

Even if there was a migrant worker program, it probably would fail if the businesses had to follow safety regulations. The businesses might as well hire legal citizens. What I don't understand is that people are arguing that the humane approach to illegal immigration is to allow businesses to hire illegal immigrants at poverty-level wages and unsafe working conditions.

There are plenty of people who would love to become U.S. citizens legally; there is no reason to let illegal immigrants cut in line.

LocalCynic
(Me)The jaywalker analogy would be fair if illegals were simply passing through the U.S. on their way to Canada.

It's not an analogy; it's just a fact. Jaywalkers are breaking the law. So why aren't we calling jaywalkers "illegals?"

Because the jaywalker is breaking the law while he is crossing the road, and not while he is on either side of it. A Mexican that entered the U.S. but then returned to Mexico would probably not be considered "illegal" once back in Mexico. During the time he is breaking the law, calling him an "illegal" seems appropriate -- and if you want to call someone who is jaywalking an "illegal" as he is crossing the road, that would be fine as well.

Today, it's the 'Mexicans'. Yesterday, it was the 'Boat People'. Before that, it was the Germans, Japanese, Africans, Irish...

/America- the country that loves to hate.
//My family has been here since the Fortune landed in 1621, and I'm pretty sure we didn't have papers.

Kind of cold in Chicago for this:

Wow, a thread about immigration from Mexico (primarily) with only one utterance of "NAFTA"

None of you have any clue what you are talking about.

I am Grievern - I am holier than thou!

Yes, I would be against anything that allows any illegal action to be turned into a fruitful action, regardless of the color of their skin (seeing as that's the level you choose to operate.)

Snarfangel

Because the jaywalker is breaking the law while he is crossing the road, and not while he is on either side of it. A Mexican that entered the U.S. but then returned to Mexico would probably not be considered "illegal" once back in Mexico. During the time he is breaking the law, calling him an "illegal" seems appropriate -- and if you want to call someone who is jaywalking an "illegal" as he is crossing the road, that would be fine as well.

I don't buy this. We don't call tax evaders and loose murders "illegals" even though they are clearly in transgression of the law. The term "illegals" is thrown out there because it's alot easier to make someone a scapegoat when you can convince the mob that a group's mere existance is evil.

Grievern: I would suggest it is far more a "culturalist" issue and far less a racial issue. We feel threatened by mexican immagration becase they seem intent on importing their culture, instead of assimilating.

s00p3rm4n

Point #1: Agree 100%

Point #2: Yes. A lot of people are permanent residents. There is nothing wrong with that and no need to make more categories.

Point #3: Yes. I also can't see why people want to reward illegal immigrants with citizenship. Recently, Ted Kennedy was being interviewed and claimed that Illegal immigrants would have to go to the "back of the line," and wouldn't displace others seeking to come into the US legally. - Problem is - they are already "over the counter" and in the US already. If Kennedy wants illegals to go to the "back of the line," then the back of the line - starts in Mexico.

Point #4: Again, Agreed, 100% ... When people state that we are a nation of immigrants, that is very true. Our romantic, idealized "immigrant" history evokes images of Ellis Island and people coming into the United States and becoming part of the melting pot with the next generation.

Todays' reality of the illegal immigrant is of walking in the desert, hiding in a rail car, shipping container, overstaying a student visa and other such forms of fraud.

This is fraud and deception, plain and simple. We shouldn't allow this, and for the people defending this - this is NOT how America should have to respond to the people making demands after they have successfully broken our laws to get here in the first place.

beoswulf
I think every English speaking citizen of America should just illegally enter Mexico while letting all of Mexico move north.

Funny though, this ctually happens, but an really small scale.

Or else we'll demand that the Mexican government have all official documents, forms, and telephone lines in Spanish and English, that their classrooms accomodate our English speaking children, and that we also get free healthcare while not having to follow any of the country's laws.

There are bilingual schools in Mexico already, and telephone lines do have acces to english, deutch, german, and french )hell, even in nahuatl in the south), in some cases foreigners do have rights to healthcare in extreme conditions (such as in political persecutions).

In 6 months old Mexico will be a tropical paradise and the USA will be slums from coast to coast.

Not all Mexico is tropical, you know? We also have desert, a bit of forests and grasslands too. And it's all beautiful, except of course of Mexico City, Tijuana, and most of the border towns. Stay away from them.

And about the US... Look more like either Spain or Andorra and then we'll talk.

Grievern "I wonder if there would be all this furor over these illegal immigrants if they were mostly European instead of Hispanic. Seems like the 'illegal immigrant' issue is being used to disguise xenophobia/racism against non-white illegal immigrants"


Nope.


You are just projecting your intolerance of the people against illegal immigration and in your mind, casting them as racist.


When in fact, the biggot is you.

LocalCynic: I don't buy this. We don't call tax evaders and loose murders "illegals" even though they are clearly in transgression of the law. The term "illegals" is thrown out there because it's alot easier to make someone a scapegoat when you can convince the mob that a group's mere existance is evil.



It's just a short phrase that defines what they are, calling them "illegal immigrants" is too many syllables.

You can call them super-happy-terrific-people but the intelligent among us will still know their presence in this country is just a scummy politicians attempts to pander to big business under the guise of helping some poor immigrants.

If they want legal status, maybe they should have come here legally.

ZipBeep "There's 12 million people in the country illegally. That's not a good thing."


Agrees with ZipBeep.

Doesn't want to haul 12 million people back to whence they came, but not in favor of rewarding them because they got away with it, either.

2006-05-01 05:14:41 PM Grievern

I am angry that another country is exporting their poverty to the United States.

the_gospel_of_thomas: You are just projecting your intolerance of the people against illegal immigration and in your mind, casting them as racist.

I understand that there are a lot of reason to oppose amnesty for illegal immigrants, but you can't read this thread and pretend that racism isn't a pretty extremem motivator for some of these people.

GET THEM THE FARK OUT OF MY STREETS, OR I SWEAR ILL SHOOT ONE OF THEM MYSELF

2006-05-01 05:26:01 PM Weaver95

No, it's entirely a tax issue.

Except that most of them make so little that they fall below the poverty line. Why pay someone who doesn't exist above minimum wage. No one will catch you.

When my grandparents came to the US many people complained that people like them were taking jobs from Americans, working for low wages, etc. They came from Italy so I'm "European American" in PC doublespeak. But the same prejudices applied to the Irish and Germans before. Now we're accepted because we've blended into society and have similar skin color.
Of course my grandparents we legal immigrants, thanks to the relaxed immigration laws of the time.

Croooow!

What, you mean like when people are referring to them as "smellies", comparing them to animals, implying that they cannot control their reproductive desires, or was it something else?

I think we should build a prison that spans the entire southern border, the only windows facing south. Let's see if the mexicans can break in and out on the same night. It would be big enough for the rest of the states to rent space for their prisoners.

LocalCynic I don't buy this. We don't call tax evaders and loose murders "illegals" even though they are clearly in transgression of the law.

Well, "murderer" is a bit stronger language than "illegal," so unless we are in a PC world gone mad (and were worried about hurting murderer's feelings) we probably wouldn't use the weaker term.

A tax evader, though -- well, I hate paying taxes, too, (though I'm too chicken to ever cheat on them) and "tax evader" is more precise than simply calling them illegals.

/And "illegal alien" has one fewer syllable than "undocumented worker."

I would suggest it is far more a "culturalist" issue and far less a racial issue.


*ding ding ding*

Tribalism sucks.

And for those of you screaming illegal=bad, STFU. I am sick and tired of people conflating ethics and law. I consider what they are doing neither terribly unethical nor immoral. They are simply doing what we allow them to do, and by allow, I mean we haven't been really trying to stop this for a long time. The money was too good.

Horse bolt stable door something something...