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(Courant.com)   Connecticut to ban the oil industry's practice of "zone pricing" of gasoline -- with which a delivery truck can drop 10,000 gallons at a station at one price and then drive to another station in the same town and charge a higher price   (courant.com) divider line 404
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8348 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Apr 2006 at 9:35 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-04-26 11:15:20 AM
koniver

I was responding to his smugness.

I know demand has grew...but to justify 150% increase in 3 years? He was justifying the increases by comparing our current situation to the 70s(OPEC mess). I don't believe we are there. If we were, with our current conditions? Watch out.

My point is that US foreign policy has played a large role in the oil market. He went on to lecture me on economics 101. That does nothing to debate my point.

MisManager
Reasoned discussion works alot better when you don't use condescension as an argument.
 
2006-04-26 11:15:45 AM
swankywanky

True to a degree, buy NJ actually has a bunch of refineries in the state and are still on the high side.
 
2006-04-26 11:15:57 AM
Vetinari: All these plans are good and all but mine can change the price TODAY. Get the governement out of the oil biz and prices will drop by over 70 cents a gallon overnight.

You ought to realize something that your namesake did--nobody gives up money when they have it. You have to make them believe that it's to their advantage to part with something in order for them to do so voluntarily.

How would you convince the government that it's to their advantage to give up this interference?
 
2006-04-26 11:16:09 AM
A 150% increase in 3 years is pretty amazing when the price of crude went up 300% in that time.
 
2006-04-26 11:16:53 AM
swankywanky

Also the cheapest states are Montana and Idaho which are just as far or farther away from refineries.
 
2006-04-26 11:17:27 AM
BEEE240: in 1996, gas was what? $1.20 if I remember correctly.

Suprisingly in Europe gas prices havn't risen by much (its at $6 now instead of $5 which is a small percentage increase).

Also the large taxes Europeans pay go to pay for a good public transportation system. I'd be willing to pay $5 a gallon TODAY if there was a public transportation system available to me today (this could be done by loans where they build the infrastructure now and pay for it with taxes later.. sure the consuption would lower which would lower the taxes, but any lowering in consumption would increase public transportation usage, which could use fairs to pay this loan as well)
 
2006-04-26 11:20:03 AM
Its none of the governments business. This is total crap, setting price should be the sole job of the company selling the product. If the demand is higher in another part of town well then, sell it at a different price. There are a billion reasons why the government should play a small of a job as possible in the control of prices (in general and in the oil industry) but the biggest are that they dont know what they are doing and they are slow to act.
 
2006-04-26 11:20:13 AM
The price of goods is (ideally) set by its value to the buyer, not its cost to the seller. This is understandably a little confusing, but you'd think most grownups grasp it. And certainly a politician toying with economic policies should.

"Zone pricing is a form of price fixing," said Sen. Gary LeBeau, an East Hartford Democrat. "I'm not sure what to call it, but it's certainly not capitalism."

Yes, Senator, a single wholesaler charging different prices to different retailers is an outstanding example of price fixing.

My sarcasm tag asplode.
 
2006-04-26 11:20:46 AM
Has anyone here heard of a company called Changing World Technology?

Supposedly they've created a way to create oil from waste. Currently they're working with Turkey guts from the local butchers, and they have plans to begin working with old car tires and misc. car parts from car factories.

Almost seems too good to be true...but if it actually works then it's pretty cool...

linkie to company site (should poppie)
 
2006-04-26 11:22:44 AM
MisManager
A 150% increase in 3 years is pretty amazing when the price of crude went up 300% in that time.

Agreed. But I can remember a point in 2004 where gas was $3.20 a gallon, and crude was ~$35 a barrel...so I have a guess where you are going with this argument, but I don't think it is relevant to the conversation.
 
2006-04-26 11:23:01 AM
SVenus Once it's up out of the ground, not all oil is oil.

You are correct. Nothing is as black and white as can be addressed in a Fark post. I am for building new refineries to meet (or maybe exceed by X%) our needs, but the line needs to be drawn somewhere and other capital should be invested in alternative sources of energy.
 
2006-04-26 11:23:49 AM
This flame war isn't worth getting involved in, it's the same people saying the same things they always do.

There is one question I have to ask, though.

Those of you defending the oil companies: do you really think they're upstanding paragons of free-market capitalism, or are you just choosing what you see as the lesser of two evils between them and the government?
 
2006-04-26 11:23:51 AM
koniver: True to a degree, buy NJ actually has a bunch of refineries in the state and are still on the high side


resid product - nat gas -- plus those refineries are nothing compared to the monsters down south (in size and output)

as far as Montana and Idaho - that's supply and demand (low population) factors -- the cheapest is actually in Texas-LA-MS region (Pad 3)
 
2006-04-26 11:24:00 AM
My guess is if one side of town was 2.50/gal, the other side 3.00/gal, they'll both be 3.00/gal now.

/Suck it, consumer!
//DRTFA
 
2006-04-26 11:24:48 AM
If this country spent even a fraction of money on alternate fuel sources as they've spent on all military action in the middle east in the past decade, would we even need to be there in the first place?
 
2006-04-26 11:26:09 AM
Agreed. But I can remember a point in 2004 where gas was $3.20 a gallon, and crude was ~$35 a barrel...so I have a guess where you are going with this argument, but I don't think it is relevant to the conversation.

Then I'll hazard a guess that your guess is wrong.

Global supply is only one of several components that determine the pump price. Domestic supply is also an issue. Also, the pump price can, and often does, lag the crude price, especially when it comes to declines. This is not because of collusion, but because most stations are run by small businesses who have to save up ahead of time to pay for the next tanker truck carrying expensive gas.

Conversely, they won't lower prices until they see continued lower prices, again because they're small businesses and cannot afford to guess wrong.
 
2006-04-26 11:29:07 AM
How would you convince the government that it's to their advantage to give up this interference?


The posturing in Washington would end if everyone new that the government was making more money then the "evil" oil companies. Then some problems could be solved. Of course its true " People do not want news they want olds"
 
2006-04-26 11:29:45 AM
I was going by this map btw.

http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx

Color coded
 
2006-04-26 11:29:54 AM
OK, everyone who is still using the "A gallon of milk is more expensive than gas" argument needs to update it for 2006 gas prices. Either tell me where you are getting gas for less than $2.11 a gallon, or you are overpaying for your milk.
 
2006-04-26 11:30:22 AM
Devin172: Actually, Connecticut Democrats tend to be more conservative and business oriented than most. They definitely don't fit the mold I think you invision.


You're right...price controls are a conservative pro business tennant...

Folks, what you are advocating is the government sanctioned "screwing of the rich"...which forever has and forever will result in the "screwing of the not rich". But seeing as all aspects of government are caving into the whining pissing and moaning of the idiot public (Bush's Carteresque call for "investigations" the latest example) we will, once again, give up our freedoms to the all protecting government...

The long slow march to enslavement continues...
 
2006-04-26 11:30:26 AM
muninsfire

Where do you think the regulations and price caps come from? Certainly not from the legislators...

Thank you. You made by Statist quote of the day for my site...
 
2006-04-26 11:30:35 AM
red_beard_neo: Those of you defending the oil companies: do you really think they're upstanding paragons of free-market capitalism, or are you just choosing what you see as the lesser of two evils between them and the government?

I have two answers for you. The first, based on what a capitalist is supposed to do, is that they are model capitalists. They are working for the benefit of their company and to return maximum value to the shareholder. Bravo.

The second answer is probably more in line with your true question. I don't see them as being any better, or any worse, than any other business owner. If Exxon is bad for making a 9% net profit, what is Microsoft and it's 35% net profit? Who's the price gouger here? That said, I would, in almost every case, view them as the lesser of evils when compared to a legislative body.
 
2006-04-26 11:32:15 AM
User Not Found
Milk at the local Safeway was $3.79/gallon. At least, it was last weekend.

Safeway is the enemy! Down with Safeway!!!111one
 
2006-04-26 11:33:11 AM
I have to aay this is a first. I have made a Discworld and a Hitchhiker reference in the same thread. This is a proud day for me
 
2006-04-26 11:35:17 AM
Maybe if we started riding cows everywhere, the price of gas and milk would come down.
 
2006-04-26 11:35:49 AM
Safeway is the enemy! Down with Safeway!!!111one

We need the Senate to investigate!!!!!! Milk at my local Wal-Mart is only $2.79/gallon!!!! Safeway is PRICE GOUGING!!! How can milk differ that much in price at two different stores!?!?!
 
2006-04-26 11:37:09 AM
mmm... pancake
No, it goes back to the oil companies. Safeway would trot out something about how expensive it is to drive their trucks around the busy and congested streets of the greater Washington area.

F U Exxon I want cheaper milk!
 
2006-04-26 11:37:29 AM
MisManager
If pump price lags the crude price, then the $3.20 we were paying was actually based on prices lower than the ~$35 a barrel at the time.

You are still looking at this in black and white. I see things like the destruction of Iraq's oil infrastructure, and continued threats of action against Iran driving prices up. You see supply/demand. I see our military using millions of barrels a day on a war that was justified on false pretenses. You see supply/demand. I see a shortage in refineries in this country, and no initiative to build new ones(nimby played a role). You see supply/demand.

So, macroscopically, supply/demand is the issue. Looking closer, each of the above has played a role. Just like increased demand in China. Just like Katrina. Just like growing middle class in India.

And to add to the earlier: When oil was $30 a barrel, we paid ~$1.20 a gallon. Now it is $70 a barrel, and we pay $3 a gallon. 2.333 vs. 2.5.
 
2006-04-26 11:39:53 AM
You mean I have the option to buy milk at 2.79 instead of 3.79? I choose 2.79.
 
2006-04-26 11:40:40 AM
Holy crap! $3.79 for milk? It is $2.11 here, just went up from $1.98. I guess I recind my statement about milk v. gas. It depends on where you are at.
 
2006-04-26 11:41:48 AM
OZA

There's nothing black and white about it. You are citing some factors that influence supply (Iraq's oil infrastructure, although it should be noted that it's pumping nearly as much as it was before under Oil for Food) and demand (driving our Humvees around Iraq). I see both of those as valid factors in supply and demand, respectively. However, I will state that the increase in China's demand for oil, all by itself, dwarfs these two factors.

Finally, your return to the crude price/pump price ratio analysis fails to take into account many other factors, including local market shocks, taxes, distribution costs, and the like. It's not so, well, black and white.
 
2006-04-26 11:41:48 AM
No, it goes back to the oil companies.

How?
 
2006-04-26 11:42:28 AM
I thought id interject a few random quotes for fun that I thought lend some perspective to this cute flamewar.

"Catch a man a fish, and you can sell it to him. Teach a man to fish, and you ruin a wonderful business opportunity."
-Karl Marx

"The commodity is first of all, an external object, a thing which through its qualities satisfies human needs of whatever kind. The nature of these needs, whether they arise, for example, from the stomach, or the imagination, makes no difference. Nor does it matter here how the thing satisfies man's need, whether directly as a means of subsistence, i.e. an object of consumption, or indirectly as a means of production"
-Das Kapital

"Capital is money, capital is commodities. By virtue of it being value, it has acquired the occult ability to add value to itself. It brings forth living offspring, or, at the least, lays golden eggs."
-Das Kapital

/ponder on
 
2006-04-26 11:44:23 AM
It’s funny to watch the right wingers on fark when they are correct about something and not just vomiting talking points, they get all excited, you can almost see the high fiving if you squint your eyes.
 
2006-04-26 11:44:30 AM
mmm... pancake
Because they colluded with Wal-Mart to have the Wal-Marts located near highways in the suburbs where there's less sitting in traffic, and to have fewer, larger Wal-Marts (as compared with Safeway locations). This collusion was designed to thwart Safeway at every turn (sorry) and force it to incur increased transportation costs and more locations in urban locales. And I am suffering in that I pay for living closer to the city through higher milk. It's Exxon's fault.

Hold on, my co-worker stepped on my tinfoil hat. brb, gotta repair.
 
2006-04-26 11:44:36 AM
Well then. Crisis averted!

Off to buy an SUV! Ta!!
 
2006-04-26 11:48:03 AM
Just to let you guys know, in Florida, when we had the bad storms, the State lifted all the taxes we have on gas for a month. It did make a big difference (like 30 cents per gallon in Orlando). Now the state is talking about having a 2 month gas tax holiday in a few months. The logic is that the state did not go broke over the suspension of gas taxes last year or the year before (in fact we have a nice 5 bil surplus in the budget this year) and that it did help allieviate gas prices.

This doesn't mean that the Federal taxes get suspended, though. If the Fed taxes were suspended as well - the price of gas could very well drop by half.
 
TWX
2006-04-26 11:50:35 AM
faethe:

Federal gas tax elimination would remove $0.18 per gallon. It wouldn't drop by half.
 
2006-04-26 11:50:51 AM
China's demand dwarfs the rest? I would be interested to see numbers as far as china's increased demand vs. the world market since 2002. Do you happen to have these handy since you seem to be informed on the subject? Not being smug, just legitimately curious.

To say this demand dwarfs the problems of instability in Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, etc. seems to me to be a bit of a stretch. Is this a political slant of yours, or have you crunched the numbers to come up with this conclusion?

My analysis was for the benefit of your earlier submittal about %150 percent being impressive vs. 300%. Not really an analysis, per se, but a quick number crunch off the top of my head.
 
2006-04-26 11:52:41 AM
gilgigamesh: Off to buy an SUV! Ta!!


I'll sell you mamarita's...not for any fuel savings...she wants an 06 Mustang GT...shiattier gas milage than her current rig, but now that The Boys are all but grown she wants to get what she wants...plus she looks great in one!
 
2006-04-26 11:53:27 AM
TWX: Federal gas tax elimination would remove $0.18 per gallon. It wouldn't drop by half.


Damnit! That must be state taxes too, then. I was reading how taxes in some areas constitute aa significant portion of the price of gas. I thought rest must be Fed taxes.

Oh well. It's a thought. Things like this make me glad to live in Florida where we at least try stuff iike this out.
 
2006-04-26 11:53:53 AM
This walmart stuff is hilarious.
 
2006-04-26 11:57:32 AM
Keep the taxes, biatchslap the oil companies into reaping reasonable profits, take the savings and put it into public transportation and subsidies for hybrids.

You maniacs!
 
2006-04-26 11:57:37 AM
Over_Zealously_Apathetic: China's demand dwarfs the rest? I would be interested to see numbers as far as china's increased demand vs. the world market since 2002. Do you happen to have these handy since you seem to be informed on the subject? Not being smug, just legitimately curious.


I can understand this affecting the price of imported oil, but not domestic. Why if Saudi sells oil for 75$ a barrel do the domestic markets have to follow suit? Gas is one of those commodities the country cannot function without. I think a lot of the panic around the increased price is mostly that - just panic - but what says it won't get even more out of control? Saudi can sell to whoever it wants - but so long as our infrastructure is so dependent on the stuff we should not be able to here...

But it's a more complex argument than that... meh. Man can't we all just agree that large personal vehicles like SUV's are making this problem a helluva lot farking worse than it needs to be?
 
2006-04-26 11:57:51 AM
faethe

Did you say florida has a budget surplus? For how long has this been the case? Kudos to Jeb and your legislature.
 
2006-04-26 12:01:14 PM
I can understand this affecting the price of imported oil, but not domestic.

Does anybody know offhand which companies import oil vs. which companies refine domestic oil? Am I right in guessing that Exxon is the latter?
 
2006-04-26 12:02:15 PM
Dancin_in_Anson

You're right...price controls are a conservative pro business tennant...

Remember that New London case where the local government was seizing land from people in order to give it to a corporation for a development project?

Folks, what you are advocating is the government sanctioned "screwing of the rich"...which forever has and forever will result in the "screwing of the not rich". But seeing as all aspects of government are caving into the whining pissing and moaning of the idiot public (Bush's Carteresque call for "investigations" the latest example) we will, once again, give up our freedoms to the all protecting government...


No, what I'm advocating is reigning in and controling an industry that is essential to the health and viability of our country. Prices for your food are regulated & the entire market is sheltered from market forces (cheap imports) both to protect the American farmer as well as the American public from foreign pressure of a vital asset.

As for screwing the rich...do you think usury laws screw the rich because the cap the rate & amount at which a company can profit?
 
2006-04-26 12:03:22 PM
OZA
Re: China's imports

In 1993, China's net imports were zero. This is basically where its production and consumption curves cross. China has next to no oil, and its domestic oil production since 1993 has risen only by about 400,000 bpd.

On the demand side, China imported a net of about 700,000 bpd in 2002 (annual average). At present, China is importing about 3.5 million bpd. That's really the 800-pound gorilla that's warping the oil market, to be honest.
 
2006-04-26 12:04:19 PM
Over_Zealously_Apathetic: Did you say florida has a budget surplus? For how long has this been the case? Kudos to Jeb and your legislature.


This year, which is ironic, being we got slammed with all those storms last year. They keep trying to figure out how to spend it back into the system. What they are looking to settle on is giving us a two month tax holiday on everything under 5k. Any purchase you make in that two month period that does not exceed 5 k would be exempt from state sales tax (but not municipal. Depending where you are this is non-existant anyway). They are trying to make it so this does not conflict with any of the other tax holidays we get (Hurricane supplies have no taxes June 1 - 14th I believe, the school supplies tax holiday is in August at some point). This works out real well because it spurs spending in certain areas (like retailers stock up on massive amounts of Hurricane stuff for the tax holdays, so there is loads to go around - and the school supplies stuff applies to clothing too, so you see loads of good sales at pricey stores).

Jeb did really well by us - but of course, we have a huge tourism tit to work with here. (84 million foriegn tourists in one year is the average).
 
2006-04-26 12:04:42 PM
Election Year Grandstanding

That is all.
 
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