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(News.com.au)   Hero beats five colours of snot from home intruder, now faces assault charges for his trouble   (news.com.au) divider line 687
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39677 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Apr 2006 at 3:03 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-04-26 11:44:22 AM  
A criminal who breaks into your home while you are there has a plan to deal with you. This usually means he's decided YOUR STUFF is worth more than YOUR LIFE.

Indeed.

I have been burgled when I was out, I was extremely annoyed but at the end of the day it was only stuff.

If someone breaks into my house when I am there, and doesn't run away when they hear me coming, they deserve the violence they will receive.
 
2006-04-26 11:45:32 AM  
lol defenestrate and inox win the thread.

You need to keep fighting until you are sure that they no longer present any risk whatsoever.

Yeah, you know, when I get startled by a bug, I stomp on it numerous times, even beyond the point where it's become a fine flesh paste. The extra cost to me is slightly more mess, the gain is greater certainty. Same thing rly.
 
2006-04-26 11:46:23 AM  
I like how the article says that the intruder might have been a cylon.
 
2006-04-26 11:48:23 AM  
I'm with the 'home defenders' here. I have a shotgun at home for home protection with a non-leathal round in the chamber and regular shot after that.

I want to be able to protect me and my loved ones, but hey, I don't want to kill anyone if I don't have to.
 
2006-04-26 11:49:18 AM  
You guys are hilarious. Just remember that when your home and family are threatened, God will not bestow upon you the power of Sampson. You could just as easily be the one leaving in a body bag.
 
2006-04-26 11:50:51 AM  
CHUDSTUD has never been on the recieving side of violence. Otherwise he would know that 'waiting for it' usually results in being cut open or knocked the fark out.

And CHUDDY, getting into a fight on the schoolyard in 4th grade doesn't count.
 
2006-04-26 11:52:05 AM  
LocalCynic wrote:
There's a difference between a dog and a human. If you don't understand that, I don't know how to break it to you.

Of course there's a difference, but a rabid dog and someone who would kill me to take my possessions are both animals that need to be put down.

I think you must just like to make flame baiting statments. You can't possible fail to see all of these obvious distinctions.
 
2006-04-26 11:53:58 AM  
Wow, StopArrestingMe. Thanks for the 411 on basic risk. Guess "throw the wallet one way, and run the other," or perhaps "stop drop and roll" would gain us odds worthy of your approval.

You know it's guys like you who

just kidding i dont feel like making dumb generalizations today
 
2006-04-26 11:54:54 AM  
Inox

Don't bother. By disagreeing with him, you've already been labeled a raping, enslaving, torturing, murderer who likes to steralize retarded people.
 
2006-04-26 11:58:49 AM  
When someone breaks into your home at 3am, it's pitch black, and the intruder is between you and your children I'd imagine that your definition of reasonable force gets adjusted pretty quick.

It's not a "macho" thing, it's a "I'm in danger, have a boatload of adrenaline flowing through me, and am doing everything I can to protect myself and my family" thing.

/just sayin'
//Not guilty by reason of temporary insanity
 
2006-04-26 11:58:55 AM  
Honestly people it's your civic duty to kill someone who enters your home in the same way it is to kill a rabid dog who is roaming in a neighborhood where children play. You kill the dog to prevent it from biting someone, and you kill the home invader to keep him from doing it to someone else after he is done with you. I mean its not like this is the only time the guy is ever going to break into a house and then all of a sudden decide he can settle for working at the local Wally-World. What if you don't kill that man and he really hurts someone the next time he enters a home? I know I would feel like an asshole.
 
2006-04-26 12:00:21 PM  
By disagreeing with him, you've already been labeled a raping, enslaving, torturing, murderer who likes to steralize retarded people.

What's wrong with sterilizing retarded people :-?
 
2006-04-26 12:00:27 PM  
Dansker
"Hero" is a pretty big word.
All he did was defend himself and his possessions.
In my book, to be a hero you have to risk your life or safety for the sake of others.


And why is that? Because your own life is worthless and the lives of others are sacred?
 
2006-04-26 12:02:01 PM  
Inox

Of course there's a difference, but a rabid dog and someone who would kill me to take my possessions are both animals that need to be put down.

Unlike criminals, Rabid animals aren't rational. A more apt analogy for your position would be that mentally retarded people are like animals because they aren't rational, so therefore it's acceptable to "put down" mentally retarded people if they get angry.
 
2006-04-26 12:03:51 PM  
Rational theives, who are not insane, will know that you aren't home before breaking in. They will watch your property for days to ensure when they break in no one will see them and no one will be home, they do not stay in business by killing witnesses.

That being said, a break-in with people at home is automagically more dangerous because you are dealing with an assumedly irrational criminal. These people may actually be after your kids or something, they might be looking to beat and kill someone /shrug. I agree that more than a little force should be justified, perhaps even an extra hit when he drops, just to make sure he's out for real, I don't dish out 100% sympathy for them all the time.

/bears repeating: you better damn well give a verbal warning before you shoot or you'll end up on fark for shooting your best friend who was pranking you, or your kid who was supposed to be at a sleepover.
 
2006-04-26 12:06:12 PM  
So, police officers are allowed to protect themselves with deadly force, but citizens in their own homes, fighting off an intruder(with unknown weapons and intentions), are not?

/Lives in Texas
//You break into my home, I assume you want to rape my wife, kill my family, then take our stuff
///You will not be exiting my house alive
 
2006-04-26 12:06:20 PM  
Awesome. Given their high crime rate, I'm glad that our country is taking one from the French playbook on immigration reform and building a new Maginot Line across the Mexican border.

Actually that's the complete opposite of what France has done. They're chock full of immigrants who refuse to become French and the French refuse to let them do so. They have no qualms with letting them in, just as long as they don't try to become French.

On the other hand, we're perfectly willing to let immigrants become Americans, it has worked for hundreds of years so there's no use in ditching the plan now. However, breaking our laws as one's first act to get here is not a good start down that road. What you refer to as the "Maginot Line" I refer to as a simple law enforcement tool. Asking them to not break our laws isn't working, making it harder for them to do so is the rational response.
 
2006-04-26 12:09:02 PM  
Senior Dindong = img.fark.com


Thank you for improving the world with your actions.
 
2006-04-26 12:12:11 PM  
LocalCynic:Unlike criminals, Rabid animals aren't rational. A more apt analogy for your position would be that mentally retarded people are like animals because they aren't rational, so therefore it's acceptable to "put down" mentally retarded people if they get angry.

What planet are you from? Do they have commonsense there?
 
2006-04-26 12:12:19 PM  
"So, police officers are allowed to protect themselves with deadly force, but citizens in their own homes, fighting off an intruder(with unknown weapons and intentions), are not?"

In Canada, that's correct also. You wil go to jail. So your choice is, die or go to jail. These laws suck.
 
2006-04-26 12:15:43 PM  
LocalCynic:Unlike criminals, Rabid animals aren't rational. A more apt analogy for your position would be that mentally retarded people are like animals because they aren't rational, so therefore it's acceptable to "put down" mentally retarded people if they get angry.

I've read my share of idiotic statements in my life, but I don't even know where to begin with this one.
 
2006-04-26 12:15:58 PM  
Eric4Real

What planet are you from? Do they have commonsense there?

Look dude, the guy's argument is stupid. It's one thing to say that if someone is going to kill you, you have a right to defend yourself. It's another thing to say that someone who is trying to kill you must be an animal is sub-human.

If you support the guy's position, then advance a valid argument. None of this half-assed innuendo crap.
 
2006-04-26 12:17:43 PM  
Maybe you should drive

I've read my share of idiotic statements in my life, but I don't even know where to begin with this one.

Then defend your position. Please explain what distinguishes animals from humans.
 
2006-04-26 12:18:52 PM  
Rational theives, who are not insane, will know that you aren't home before breaking in.

Actually, in Britian more and more thieves are breaking in when people are home, and are in fact targetting occupied homes. Why? Two reasons: They know that the occupants aren't likely to be armed and can in fact be charged if they try to defend themselves (it has happened several times) and secondly if the person is home they don't have to bother looking for the expensive stuff, they can threaten the homeowners and make them hand it over. Their rate of "hot" home invasions has skyrocketed since they enacted tougher gun control measures.

What's "rational" for a criminal to do is determined by many factors. They're simply looking for the easiest targets, crimes of opportunity. If the local laws make the populace sitting ducks, then hot home invasions make sense. If the laws make it likely that the citizens are armed and allow the citizens to legally defend themselves with deadly force, hot home invasions are pretty dangerous and not the most rational route.
 
2006-04-26 12:23:34 PM  
A word to the wise. If somebody breaks into your house, and:

1. You do not know their intentions.
2. You do not have any sort of heavy training in self-defense, police work, or in the military.
3. You have children in the house.

Then: Shoot to kill, because if you don't, you are at risk of loosing your not-to-smart life.

Any burgler, thief, or intruder has a plan should they meet resistance in their task, and these days, home-owner casuaties are much greater than they have been in the past.
 
2006-04-26 12:23:46 PM  
Animatronik
Did they prosecute him?!? He should have gone from the hospital stright to jail. Getting the #$!#$ beat out of you does not absolve you of guilt.

Oh yes. He plead guilty to some really wimpy charge in a plea deal and got probation.

techmom
//wait, shouldn't you have asked his intentions before you got violent?

er yeah... see that's where they got me... he never laid a hand on me, he just tried to hold me back while I went postal on him. He is trying to contend that I had a conversation with him from my car and then invited him in to have sex, then beat the crap out of him in a "homeless bashing incident." Yes... I invite really gross creepy men into my car for sex at 4am often... Just to beat them up later... absolutely...
 
2006-04-26 12:25:47 PM  
Bottom line is, there's a difference between teeing off on a guy and getting in 72 strokes. Or some such dumb analogy. You may be able to get a few extra licks in but too many and the cops will cry foul. And you will have to convince a jury it was self-defense. that may be tough if you stabbed hiim 20 times.

Personally, i think I could avoid using excessive force in that situation, adrenaline notwithstanding.
 
2006-04-26 12:27:56 PM  
Animatronik

Bottom line is, there's a difference between teeing off on a guy and getting in 72 strokes. Or some such dumb analogy. You may be able to get a few extra licks in but too many and the cops will cry foul. And you will have to convince a jury it was self-defense. that may be tough if you stabbed hiim 20 times.

But I thought that patriotic, freedom loving juries and prosecutors would recognize that you were exercising your right to defend yourself, and that you should be allowed to have fun while doing it.
 
2006-04-26 12:28:37 PM  
LocalCynic

If you don't think people can lose their humanity and become animals you should go talk to some rape victims or the families of murder victims or take a look at convicts who have been in prison for extended periods of time. It is definitely possible for the person trying to kill you to be on par with an animal. So, while its not possible to say that every single person who breaks into a home is an animal, its also far from a "stupid argument" to say that home invaders should be considered rabid dogs to be put down. B/c just like you cant say they are all animals, you can't say that none of them are animals either, and many people would prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to defending their homes.
 
2006-04-26 12:29:21 PM  
LocalCynic: Then defend your position. Please explain what distinguishes animals from humans.

Any rational person would know that the original use of the term "animal" was metaphorical. What was quite obviously implied in his statement was that a person intent on breaking into an occupied home showed the rationality and danger to society as a whole that a rabid animal would show.

The comparison is not perfect. But it is much closer to reality than your comparison of a mentally retarded person and an animal.
 
2006-04-26 12:32:08 PM  
2006-04-26 12:23:46 PM wendykh


er yeah... see that's where they got me... he never laid a hand on me, he just tried to hold me back while I went postal on him. He is trying to contend that I had a conversation with him from my car and then invited him in to have sex, then beat the crap out of him in a "homeless bashing incident." Yes... I invite really gross creepy men into my car for sex at 4am often... Just to beat them up later... absolutely...


Thank God reason prevailed and they didn't charge you. If it had happened to me and I did what you did, being 6-2 and 220 pounds, I would have been charged with assault. But a woman has a right to assume the worst and act accordingly even if no weapon is shown and no direct assault has occured. In other words, his invasion is presumed to be a threat to your life when he entered your vehicle whereas if it were me the threat is less serious, IMO.
 
2006-04-26 12:34:11 PM  
I'm a pansy anti-gun pacifist sort of guy but if someone breaks into your home you absolutely should have the right to defend yourself, your family, and your property with reasonable force.

You do not have the right to shoot a man in the back as he runs away. You do not have the right to shoot an unarmed man multiple times after he's capitulated. You do not have the right to continue beating a man after he's unconscious. etc. But I have to agree with the Americans on this one: if someone is in your house you definitely should be able to use deadly force against them as long as they post some kind of immediate threat.
 
2006-04-26 12:34:57 PM  
I don't really understand people in this thread coming down on the guy for using excessive force. It is easy to question the homeowners actions after the fact. Honestly, what would have been *reasonable* force for the homeowner in this situation?

I think in a situation like this every benefit of the doubt should be given to the homeowner that was defending himself, his family, and his property. He may have used *excessive* force, but might the excessive force have been reasonable for him? If he isn't trained in how to handle these situations can you expect him to react the way we expect say police, or military, to react? Those people are trained professionals, and the reaonable force we expect from them should be different from what we expect from some schmoe in a situation he doesn't know how to handle. What is reasonable for a frightened homeowner that is acting on instinct?

Personally, I think reasonable is "whatever it takes" to make sure he isn't going to get up while you wait for the cops. And if that means the burglar takes a few extra whacks to the noggin from a Louisville Slugger while he is lying prone on the floor, well, better him than the homeowner.

Besides, once you watch Cops and see the clip of the 6 cops it took to detain a naked man in a barber shop who had been shot to know that just cause the guy took a blow to the head and is lying on the ground, doesn't mean he won't get up a second later. And if he does, chances are he's going to be pissed off.
 
2006-04-26 12:38:12 PM  
2006-04-26 12:27:56 PM LocalCynic


But I thought that patriotic, freedom loving juries and prosecutors would recognize that you were exercising your right to defend yourself, and that you should be allowed to have fun while doing it.


i don't get where the big debate is here. Everyone agrees that you have the right to defend yourself, and you are morally obligated not to injure others beyond the point of protecting life and limb. When people say "if some animal enters my house, i may kill him" what they are really saying that they have no qualms about shooting a burglar who is presumed to be a threat.

Anybody who shoots a burglar who is trying to get away and is no immediate threat to anybody, is an an asshat. Of course, you have to KNOW when they are down and out and KNOW when they are trying to get away. that's the tricky part.
 
2006-04-26 12:38:38 PM  
Maybe you should drive

The comparison is not perfect. But it is much closer to reality than your comparison of a mentally retarded person and an animal.

Zing!
 
2006-04-26 12:39:56 PM  
LocalCynic: Unlike criminals, Rabid animals aren't rational. A more apt analogy for your position would be that mentally retarded people are like animals because they aren't rational, so therefore it's acceptable to "put down" mentally retarded people if they get angry.

How is this an "apt analogy"?

Um, is the mentally retarded person in my house, after breaking down the door with a piece of wood? If so, they simply become an intruder.

How exactly are criminals rational? Rational people follow the rules of society and DO NOT break in to other people's houses.

Irrational: Lacking sound judgement.
 
2006-04-26 12:40:51 PM  
dbs_stylee: Besides, once you watch Cops and see the clip of the 6 cops it took to detain a naked man in a barber shop who had been shot to know that just cause the guy took a blow to the head and is lying on the ground, doesn't mean he won't get up a second later. And if he does, chances are he's going to be pissed off.

This made me laugh.
 
2006-04-26 12:43:24 PM  
dbs_stylee: I don't really understand people in this thread coming down on the guy for using excessive force. It is easy to question the homeowners actions after the fact. Honestly, what would have been *reasonable* force for the homeowner in this situation?

Once the threat has subsided then the attack needs to stop as well.

I think in a situation like this every benefit of the doubt should be given to the homeowner that was defending himself, his family, and his property. He may have used *excessive* force, but might the excessive force have been reasonable for him? If he isn't trained in how to handle these situations can you expect him to react the way we expect say police, or military, to react? Those people are trained professionals, and the reaonable force we expect from them should be different from what we expect from some schmoe in a situation he doesn't know how to handle. What is reasonable for a frightened homeowner that is acting on instinct?

I also believe that we should extend as much benefit of the doubt as possible, but that doesn't mean forgiving somebody who has taken the law into their own hands.

Personally, I think reasonable is "whatever it takes" to make sure he isn't going to get up while you wait for the cops. And if that means the burglar takes a few extra whacks to the noggin from a Louisville Slugger while he is lying prone on the floor, well, better him than the homeowner.

And that would be a crime. Once somebody is subdued you no longer have any right to beat them or use lethal force, IMO.
 
2006-04-26 12:43:27 PM  
Maybe you should drive

What was quite obviously implied in his statement was that a person intent on breaking into an occupied home showed the rationality and danger to society as a whole that a rabid animal would show. The comparison is not perfect. But it is much closer to reality than your comparison of a mentally retarded person and an animal.

It's quite possible for people with mental retardation or illness to be lacking in rationality. If we define humanness as the presence of rationality, these people are animals. Again, there's a difference between saying that someone can't be reasoned with, and saying that they're sub-human. I asked the original poster for clarification and he made it perfectly clear that his point was not figurative.

Eric4Real

If you don't think people can lose their humanity and become animals you should go talk to some rape victims or the families of murder victims or take a look at convicts who have been in prison for extended periods of time. It is definitely possible for the person trying to kill you to be on par with an animal.

I symathize for the victims, but that's a plea from emotion and not an argument. Of course people can exhibit animalistic behavior - e.g. fapping. What you're is saying that people can be socialized to exhibit bad behavior. That person is not intrinsically evil or an animal. The difference between a rabid dog and and a crazed criminal is that one is a dog and the other is a human.
 
2006-04-26 12:44:23 PM  
2006-04-26 12:34:57 PM dbs_stylee


Besides, once you watch Cops and see the clip of the 6 cops it took to detain a naked man in a barber shop who had been shot to know that just cause the guy took a blow to the head and is lying on the ground, doesn't mean he won't get up a second later. And if he does, chances are he's going to be pissed off.


that's why i have a 2-tiered strategy. Stage 1 is incapacitation with blunt force. If they are down but not out and don't leave, stage 2 comes into play (buckshot). But stage 2 is a defensive measure, i.e. 911 has been called and the individual has chosen to re-engage rather than run away. they'd have to be insane not to run away in that situation and extreme force is justified. As someone pointed out in an earlier thread, the scariest sound there is is the click-clack of a pump shotgun.
 
2006-04-26 12:44:52 PM  
The macho posturing and casual disregard for human life in this thread is quite staggering. There is nothing wrong with self-defense, but the only time you should even consider killing someone is if your life is actually in danger. If a methhead breaks in to steal my TV he can farking have it. I'll just call the cops when he leaves. Even though he's a thieving methhead he's still human, and the TV (or car, or any other material posession) isn't worth anybody's life.

The only time I would consider using lethal force is if I or my family are in serious danger. Sure, it's a big grey area, every situation is different, and if someone breaks in you don't know what might happen. But it seems that all the macho boys here are willing to kill all burglars, without distinction.

So you'd kill someone for stealing your TV? How about a pickpocket? A homeless guy grabbing your burger at McD's? At what monetary value are you allowed to kill? What's a life worth to you? It seems obvious to me that as humans we have a moral obligation to do all we can to avoid taking a life. If you could have reasonably avoided killing someone but pulled the trigger anyway, you have chosen to kill. How are you different from any murderer rotting in jail?

/steps off the soapbox
 
2006-04-26 12:49:48 PM  
Any intruder who breaks into my house is going to get a hollow-point slug from my Beretta in the middle of his forehead.

And you liberal wussies can suck it.
 
2006-04-26 12:50:51 PM  
This thread is basically Dirty Harry vs. Les Miserables.
 
2006-04-26 12:52:17 PM  
BloodFart: Any intruder who breaks into my house is going to get a hollow-point slug from my Beretta in the middle of his forehead.

I'm sure that impresses the crap out of your pimple faced buddies that hang out on the smoking hill with you, but please shut your pie-hole. The adults are trying to talk.
 
2006-04-26 12:57:22 PM  
LocalCynic:The difference between a rabid dog and and a crazed criminal is that one is a dog and the other is a human.

No one is saying the criminal is not physically a human, obviously he has not transformed himself into some kind of animal. I think you are putting to much focus on this animal thing in a literal sense. The only difference between a crazed criminal and a rabid dog are the bodies they inhabit. The are both irrational, and they are both willing to hurt you. Are you saying that since humans aren't intrinsically evil, that they can't be evil? Who cares if its intrinsic, evil is evil. What are you even arguing about? That people aren't animals or that people shouldn't be killed if they have broken into your home?
 
2006-04-26 12:57:51 PM  
If a methhead breaks in to steal my TV he can farking have it. I'll just call the cops when he leaves.

Better hope he doesn't decide to slit your throat and take your wallet since he's there anyway.

Every confrontational situation demands a fight-or-flight response. If I found myself staring down a meth addict in my own home in the dark of night, I can't say for sure which I'd do. But if I chose to fight, I would hope that the legal system would affirm my right to do so.
 
2006-04-26 12:59:46 PM  
LocalCynic:I asked the original poster for clarification and he made it perfectly clear that his point was not figurative.

I will readily admit I have only read a small portion of this thread. Can you please direct me to where he made it "perfectly clear that his point was not figurative?" Because I cannot find that. But I am fairly certain you have not yet made it perfectly clear that your point was not figurative. And that scares me.
 
2006-04-26 01:01:29 PM  
BloodFart

Any intruder who breaks into my house is going to get a hollow-point slug from my Beretta in the middle of his forehead.

And you liberal wussies can suck it.


OMG, you totally fapped after posting this.

Look, I totally get the impulse to be a bad-ass, macho motherfarker. Somebody broke in, you're in the right, you have a gun, you're the hero and you'll kick ass. It's a fun fantasy that makes your chest swell with pride and makes your dick bigger. But if you kill someone who isn't posing a mortal danger to you, you've made a conscious choice to kill and you're a murderer. Simple as that.
 
2006-04-26 01:08:54 PM  
And yeah, I *did* fap after typing that.

/This is my pistol, this is my gun
 
2006-04-26 01:09:39 PM  
gnoto

I don't think monetary value has anything to do with it. It's the fact that the individual in question has crossed the line and started invading peoples homes. Some us feel a civic responsibility to remove that person from society before he seriously hurts an innocent person. Sure you could argue that he may only steal T.V.s for ever and never hurt anyone, but is his life to be valued at the same level as productive members of society? Is it worth the risk to let him walk out the door knowing that he may harm others in the future? I don't think so, you may think differently.
The great thing about America is that you are allowed to let that guy leave with your T.V. and call the cops, and I'm allowed to kill that bastard and sleep better at night knowing that I may have saved one of his potential victims a lot of trouble later on down the line. The main point though is that if he had not made the choice to break into a home he would still be alive, so ultimately the blame lies with the criminal not the homeowner. IMHO.
 
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