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(News.com.au)   Hero beats five colours of snot from home intruder, now faces assault charges for his trouble   (news.com.au) divider line 687
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39677 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Apr 2006 at 3:03 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-04-26 05:00:31 AM
Kendrick:
One bullet in the head is without doubt the best way to go if you find a stranger in your home, all the more if you know they broke in.

Marvin Gaye Sr. would like to remind you to make absolutely sure it's a stranger.
 
2006-04-26 05:00:39 AM
bbcrackmonkey: You seem to have your priorities askew.

Hardly. Vigilante justice was forsaken by civilized society long ago. You must not have received the memo.
 
2006-04-26 05:00:43 AM
I agree with Obdicut on this one. I was simply stating the way the laws have been taught to me. There was once a shooting 2 doors down from my house in the Hoffman Heights area of Aurora, CO. Within a month my house was sold and I was living in Colorado Springs.

I don't advocate guns as rule, and I certanly don't like the concealed weapons laws down here in Tx (every farker is armed), I was just trying to explain the laws as they have been taught to me.
 
2006-04-26 05:01:08 AM
CeaserSneezy

And what does that mean, exactly?
 
2006-04-26 05:01:40 AM
Obdicut: What the hell did you start throwing "liberal" around for? Now that's trolling.

Well, now that you mention it, I guess it could be construed that way. I mean, as I made clear, I consider myself one too; I didn't use it as a dirty word like people sometimes do. I'm just not in line with the Left's stance in general and the Democrats' stance in particular on guns and lethal force.

I suppose I may have been reaching a little to assume that untrustworthy was advocating his particular position on that basis, but I don't think I was out of line. I mean, it's part of the Democrat platform, for fark's sake. Restriction of gun ownership and use is a socially liberal position.

/Even though by the strict definition of the words that last sentence doesn't make any sense
 
2006-04-26 05:03:35 AM
Shadesofblack

You see, the problem is nowhere did untrustworthy advocate restricting gun control and in fact mentioned he supported gun ownership and was a gun owner. That's why you kinda looked ridiculous.

Stepqhen

I understand and respect your point of view. Nice talking to you.
 
2006-04-26 05:04:02 AM
retrosteve

I think it's great that you didn't beat the guy up. Different story when he's in your home though.
 
2006-04-26 05:04:58 AM
Obdicut: Well, it could have been me.

I used to live in a building that had an identical staircase and frontage to the one next door.

Once, after working a 33 hour shift, I came home late at night, walked up my steps, opened the door, and went inside. I stood in the hallway, massively confused. A dude walked out from the living room, flipped on the light, and said, "What the fark are you doing in my house?"

I was able to put two and two together, and say, "Oh shiat, sorry, I live next door." He was suspicious as hell, of course, so I backed out slowly, saying, "Let me show you my ID-- it's in my hip pocket, okay?" I showed him my ID
So maybe you would have killed me. And you'd have to live with that, when you found out the circumstance. Would you be justified in defending your home? Hell, you'd have been scared, I understand. But would I have deserved to die? No. And you'd know that, and it'd eat at you.


I understand in your situation, but you were not aggressive to the guy and you were not breaking in, and presumably you were not wearing a ski mask and carrying a bag for stolen goodies.

I live in a house where nobody would ever accidentally walk in (for one thing I keep my doors locked). So perhaps we just have different perspectives. Anyone who breaks into my place while I'm home is signing his own death warrant. Simple as that.
 
2006-04-26 05:06:05 AM
Obdicut: You see, the problem is nowhere did untrustworthy advocate restricting gun control and in fact mentioned he supported gun ownership and was a gun owner. That's why you kinda looked ridiculous.

Fair enough. Cheerfully withdrawn.
 
2006-04-26 05:06:07 AM
untrustworthy: If I had a loaded gun pointed at him then I'd feel I had the upper hand. I would then do whatever I could to secure him so that he couldn't pose a threat (tape his hands, feet, search him, etc).

Which is where you make a mistake and maybe end up dead. It's dangerous for trained cops to try to handcuff a violent suspect at gunpoint; nevermind the difficulty of doing this with tape or something. From your comments I'm pretty sure you're not trained, and don't have handcuffs lying around your house - which means that if you got unlucky and the guy really is a violent criminal, you probably just gave him your gun and a grip on your throat.

I don't care who you are. If you use unecessary force or kill somebody without rational justification then you should be prosecuted for criminal behavior. Especially if you're a cop because they should know better.

This is where we disagree. I contend that "breaking into my house and failing to prove you aren't a threat" is *by definition* "rational justification" for killing. And I'm absolutely certain that a large majority of cops feel the same way, at least about their own homes.
 
2006-04-26 05:06:08 AM
After a similar incident caused public outcry in Western Australia, the law was changed to this one here.

An excerpt: It is lawful for a person ( "the occupant" ) who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling to use any force or do anything else that the occupant believes, on reasonable grounds, to be necessary -

(a) to prevent a home invader from wrongfully entering the dwelling or an associated place;


Savvy readers will notice that you only need to have reasonable grounds to believe the person is a threat. The force you use does not need to be reasonable.

The government actually posted warning advertisements around the state before that amendment came into effect, along the lines of "if you break into a house, the occupant can beat you to death, and we'll just make them fill in a form afterwards".

So in short, not all of Australia is that screwed up. Precident in NSW will probably mean the charges are dropped or the guy gets off, but still, it's annoying to have to do that.
 
2006-04-26 05:07:57 AM
Epsilon

And what if you forgot to lock your doors-- nobody's perfect? Or your wife? Or if it's the cops?

I'm just saying think about this, and other situations like it, so you don't wind up ruining your life.
 
2006-04-26 05:08:52 AM
shadesofblack: I suppose I may have been reaching a little to assume that untrustworthy was advocating his particular position on that basis, but I don't think I was out of line. I mean, it's part of the Democrat platform, for fark's sake. Restriction of gun ownership and use is a socially liberal position.

I'm not a Democrat. I am a responsible gun owner. I have a large number of firearms in my home and have a concealed carry permit. I practice regularly with my firearms. I have hunted big game in the past and enjoy my 2nd amendment rights to the fullest.

All of these things lead me to preach responsibility with lethal force. It is justified when necessary, but not a right simply because somebody is invading your home, IMO. Situations vary and the force justified varies with it. Don't try to pigeonhole my stance with some sort of political agenda.
 
2006-04-26 05:08:57 AM
darth_shatner:
This guy is a HERO...

"Hero" is a pretty big word.
All he did was defend himself and his possessions.
In my book, to be a hero you have to risk your life or safety for the sake of others.
 
2006-04-26 05:08:59 AM
running_too_slow

If I KNOW that when I try to run, they're going to catch me - and my chance to defend myself will have been squandered?

You should defend yourself. Don't think too much or you will lose quickly. Running is a bad idea for most people. Especially if you are not by yourself. How many people here have kids? How about a significant other? Would you run out of the house leaving the intruder inside, knowing that you just left your wife behind? You may have just left her to be raped. How self-centered can you get?
 
2006-04-26 05:09:58 AM
bbcrackmonkey


"untrustworthy: That would make you a violent criminal that I would not want loose on the streets."

You seem to have your priorities askew.



And, given your advocation of violent criminal acts, you seem perfectly insane.
 
2006-04-26 05:11:44 AM
Maybe the asshole shoudn't break into your home in the first place. If he's doing that, he's making his life a liability, since he has no idea what the homeowner will do.
 
2006-04-26 05:13:24 AM
Obdicut: And what if it's the examples I gave above? A total accident? Or someone you know, who has a key? Or the cops, given a bad address on a tip-- which happens all the damn time?

That's why you get eyes-on contact with the person.

When you've established that you don't know them, you shoot.

If it's a drunk stumbling into the wrong house, it sucks to be him. Hopefully, you won't kill him, and he'll learn from the experience.

If it's a cop executing one of those "no-knock" warrants that the vice guys cream over, fark em.
 
2006-04-26 05:13:39 AM
"I have hunted big game in the past and enjoy my 2nd amendment rights to the fullest."\\

As an employee of the big game industry and and the authour of the 2nd ammendment, I find this thread amusing.
 
2006-04-26 05:14:13 AM
Obdicut

It means that you have no idea what you're talking about. Lock your doors? Are you serious? If someone wants into your house, they'll pry a window open, not go through the front farking door. Move? To where? An area you can't afford?

In shiatty neighborhoods like the one in TFA, lots of the criminals have guns. I already said that I'm not waving my dick around saying "kill anyone who is in your house," but if it came down to it and I felt I had to kill an intruder, I wouldn't want someone like you second-guessing my decision.
 
2006-04-26 05:14:46 AM
SchlingFo

And if it was me in my example above-- I'd never met my neighbor-- you'd be blowing someone away for a rather understandable mistake.
 
2006-04-26 05:16:12 AM
untrustworthy: Situations vary and the force justified varies with it. Don't try to pigeonhole my stance with some sort of political agenda.

I did just say, just a few posts ago, "cheerfully withdrawn."

Though it's getting less cheerful.

Anyway, yes, I made a mistake attaching your position to a political stance; my apologies. But you'll note, if you look back, that my position was never that we had a substantial disagreement. It was, in fact, that we agreed in many respects but that your belligerence was making it very difficult to side with you. It was not a difficult slip to mistake your constant railing against lethal force for a position totally against the use of lethal force.

Do you see what I mean, now, when I say that name-calling doesn't make you any friends?

Dansker:In my book, to be a hero you have to risk your life or safety for the sake of others.

I agree, but I guess heroism is in the eye of the beholder. Shrug.
 
2006-04-26 05:16:41 AM
CaeserSneezy

Someone like me, eh?

If you feel like you have to kill an intruder, I, and anyone else, still has a perfect right to second guess the decision. That's the public sphere for you.

But really, you'd be judged by yourself more than anyone else.
 
2006-04-26 05:18:35 AM
Kendrick: Which is where you make a mistake and maybe end up dead. It's dangerous for trained cops to try to handcuff a violent suspect at gunpoint; nevermind the difficulty of doing this with tape or something. From your comments I'm pretty sure you're not trained, and don't have handcuffs lying around your house - which means that if you got unlucky and the guy really is a violent criminal, you probably just gave him your gun and a grip on your throat.

This only proves your own ignorance. There are many ways to subdue a subject that do not require lethal force.

This is where we disagree. I contend that "breaking into my house and failing to prove you aren't a threat" is *by definition* "rational justification" for killing. And I'm absolutely certain that a large majority of cops feel the same way, at least about their own homes.

This is where you are wrong. Breaking into a home is not justification for lethal force, IMO. Posing an imminent threat to you or your family is the only justification for lethal force. If you have other options it would be wise to utilize them prior to killing somebody unecessarily.
 
2006-04-26 05:20:46 AM
Obdicut,
Statements like that will be the death of Fark!
and thanks, It's mutual.
 
2006-04-26 05:21:55 AM
Well, anyway, I'm off to bed. This is mostly a moot point for me anyhow, since even though I live in the great gun-totin' state of Texas, I can't afford one...

And despite what the movies have taught you, it'd actually be pretty hard to kill somebody with a sword, which is what I do have. Unlike a lot the 'net population, I am well aware that I am not samurai.

/Yeah, I know, call me a dork
//At least it's not a katana
 
2006-04-26 05:23:23 AM
shadesofblack: Do you see what I mean, now, when I say that name-calling doesn't make you any friends?

Chill out. I never called you any names. If you agree with me, then fine. If you take issue with what I stand for then state it.
 
2006-04-26 05:24:52 AM
Obdicut
Someone like me, eh?

If you feel like you have to kill an intruder, I, and anyone else, still has a perfect right to second guess the decision. That's the public sphere for you.

But really, you'd be judged by yourself more than anyone else.

Sorry to make my last post personal. You have what I see as an unrealistic view of violent crime, and someone that doesn't have to worry about break-ins probably shouldn't be telling a resident of a bad neighborhood how many times to hit a burgler.

As for being judged by yourself, I'm sure it's not easy living with someone's blood on your hands. I bet it's worse to know that your lack of action caused a family member to be raped or killed though.
 
2006-04-26 05:25:50 AM
Sorry... italics.
 
2006-04-26 05:28:16 AM
Obdicut: And what if you forgot to lock your doors-- nobody's perfect? Or your wife? Or if it's the cops?

I'm just saying think about this, and other situations like it, so you don't wind up ruining your life.


Don't be an idiot. I'm not going to just blindly knock people in the head with a baseball bat. If it was my wife she'd say, "Hey, it's me!" And if it was the cops they'd say, "Police! Freeze!"

I'm talking about seeing a stranger intruding into my home, jackass.
 
2006-04-26 05:28:17 AM
CeaserSneezy

I live in a bad neighborhood-- in a secure building, so I feel safe at home, but I hear gunfire most nights.

If I had killed everyone who threated me over the past two years, I'd be a mass murderer.

I think you've got an unrealistic view of violent crime. You seem a little afraid.
 
2006-04-26 05:28:59 AM
Epsilon

My example above was of me-- a stranger-- going into the wrong house when I was really, really tired and out of it, because it looked almost exactly the same as mine.
 
2006-04-26 05:29:31 AM
Does anybody remember the fact that the intruder broke the door off of the hinges with a piece of wood? That kind of sounds violent to me.
 
2006-04-26 05:31:24 AM
I don't believe that the rational people in here are saying that you shouldn't take out an attacker if it is clear that they are going to rape or kill you, your family, or your guinea pigs. The points that I have seen comming out are that simply trespassing is not justification, and in most cases this is the legal stance as well.
 
2006-04-26 05:31:58 AM
Obdicut... imagine how low the crime rate would be if you did, and other lives you could have saved...
 
2006-04-26 05:34:21 AM
WaffenSS

You've got the most offensive name on FARK, by the way.

How low the crime rate would be? Those I shot would be replaced by those just like them the next day. These are low-life thugs, not master criminals.
 
2006-04-26 05:36:00 AM
Obdicut: I think you've got an unrealistic view of violent crime. You seem a little afraid.

Afraid of violent crime? He must be insane. That is the point of most of this thread. Was the victim gratuitously bashing an attacker or was she shiating his pants and wanted to make sure he was safe?
 
2006-04-26 05:38:04 AM
Shatner's Bassoon: And, given your advocation of violent criminal acts, you seem perfectly insane.

You can still be sane and kill a criminal without remorse. You just have to have sociopathic tendencies.

untrustworthy, if somebody broke into your house in particular, since you admit to owning quite a few guns, do you keep them all locked down or is there possibly a good chance that if you wake up and find an intruder in your house that they might be armed with one of your own guns? Firearms are some of the things that burglars look most for, right next to jewelry and electronics. High resale value, portable, etc.
 
2006-04-26 05:38:24 AM
Anyhow, on Police advice and to avoid trouble, anybody who's breaking in will be killed (no fire arms, mind you - you would need an unregistred gun to put in the thieve's hand and not shoot him in the back)

So I have a pair of bull Terriers who don't like strangers (really don't like) and a machete (in case they try to hurt my dogs)
 
2006-04-26 05:39:37 AM
I am the infidel

And if you read my comments, i'm not even saying that it's not understandable to get pumped up and attack an intruder. I'm just urging caution.
 
2006-04-26 05:39:57 AM
He was charged because it is not the role of the police to substitute their judgment for that of the judiciary, and the account suggests use of excessive force, which will remove from consideration self-defence and render him liable to conviction of assault. It is precisely what the police should have done.
 
2006-04-26 05:43:10 AM
Sorry all... had to go get a last whiskey/soda before closing...any new thoughts or are we still pissin'in the wind?
 
2006-04-26 05:43:36 AM
Obdicut: WaffenSS

You've got the most offensive name on FARK, by the way.


Really depends. Personally I've seen people with more offensive usernames, but I can't quite recall them.

Just FYI, I'm a history major, and the Waffen SS weren't necessarily the guys who went around shooting or gassing Jews for kicks, those were mostly the SS-Totenkopf, SS-Sicherheitsdienst, Gestapo, and SS-Einsatzgruppen. Lots of SS-Waffen were also used for shooting Jews or rotated to be guards of concentration camps but many also never killed an innocent person and were just part of elite fighting units.
 
2006-04-26 05:44:52 AM
As for the gung-ho vigilantes: as much as you might feel justified in killing an intruder, feelings given written form in internet fora in terms lavish of your clear courage and moral righteousness, if the law does not share your thoughts then you will be going to PMITA prison irrespective.

/stfu with the declamations of 'come near my house and ur farked!1!11'?
 
2006-04-26 05:45:00 AM
Never the less, common law in AMERICA *not where this case is an issue* states that a man's house is his castle... with reasonable comparisons to a King's defence and a Man's.

I could go into the American legal issue here but that's not relevent. Suffice it to say that while I don't wish for a robber to loose his life should he enter into another man's house... which is to say that I don't think theft deserves the death penalty... I do feel that a thief forfits his own reasonable hope of security to life after he invades another man's home.

Since this man did not go outside of his home to kill another man it's clear that punishment would be inflicted because the homeowner went too far in his passion of anger, fear and insecurity with regards to the intruder.

The message should be simple: If you intend to intrude in a like manner the law will not place such a condition to your guilt, but a wo/man you have made vulnerable by compromising his famly's security will hold you accountable and may even kill you for your trespass.

I don't see anything wrong with this... additionally I find it simple to hold an offended man in violation of law should this occurr. To do so would encourage others to burgle. A thief should fear the wrath of their target more than the wrath of justice.

Criminals should not have any protections with regards to law if they have planned to do evil in advance, their actions are paid in full with either stolen monies or wrath.
 
2006-04-26 05:45:53 AM
bbcrackmonkey

I know the history of the SS pretty well. Yes, lots of Waffen SS just fought. However, being a total adherent to the Nazi doctrine was a requirement for membership and service. Someone who champions devout Nazi's, that's pretty offensive.
 
2006-04-26 05:46:15 AM
Let's get over this pointless bickering. We should all ask ourselves WWTND? It is truely the only pathway to enlightenment.

/What Would Ted Nugent Do?
//Flame on.
 
2006-04-26 05:46:17 AM
I realise my policor references are not tight... and my spelling sucks. Please move along.
 
2006-04-26 05:46:41 AM
The hottest job in England and Australia for 2006 will be that of 'criminal'. The pay is pretty decent in most areas, some areas are obviously better than others, and the benefits package just can't be beat. Where else in the world can any other job be given free medical care and the protection of the authorities if you come upon a disgruntled customer?
 
2006-04-26 05:47:55 AM
Anyone championing the SS today is either a farktard or a complete iddiot. And anyone that tries to offer consideration for the Nazi's is oblivios to history. Not only the handicapped view of the German leader at the time, but also to the evil that made up their motivation to fight in the first place.
 
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