bbcrackmonkey: The cops also found an unregistered 9mm pistol on the burglar, but I suspect they planted it.

"At the moment" self-defense is one thing. Hunting people down after the fact is what we're really talking about here.

I'd actually take issue with the idea that your friend was justified there. Even cops (are supposed to have to) use the minimal amount of force required to subdue someone. Shooting a burglar through the head is probably slightly over the top (no, I don't think "make-my-day" laws should be a get-out-of-jail-free card)

AdamK: not to godwin, but isn't this just one part closer to rather big traits of groups like the Nazis, Stalinists, Maoists, etc.?

problems are huge when you start thinking "us and them"

This is what I'm saying, but people get very irrational when it comes to pedophillia (which I tend believe is tied to biology and evolution, but is presented as a societal trait, protection of offspring and all that; but, then again, societies through history have endorsed sexual activity in significantly younger individuals than we allow now, so that's probably only a partial explanation)

I hope I'm not the only person bothered by the misinformation in this thread. Here are some facts, based on data collected by the Arizona Department of Corrections, on sexual offender recidivism rates:

* 20.8 % returned at least once to custody (14.2% with new felony convictions).
* 3.2% returned for a new felony sex offense.
* 3.7% returned for a new violent felony offense.
* 0.7% of parolees were found to have committed a new sex offense during the period of parole supervision (0.1% while still under supervision).

Source: http://www.adc.state.az.us/FACTSHEETS/Fact%20Sheet%2098-06.htm

doccm9: You cut yourself off, fittingly right where I would have cut you off.

From the above linked PDF. "Compared to non-sex offenders released from State prisons, released sex offenders were 4 times more likely to be rearrested for a sex crime. Within the first 3 years following their release from prison in 1994, 5.3% (517 of the 9,691) of released sex offenders were rearrested for a sex crime. The rate for the 262,420 released non-sex offenders was lower, 1.3% (3,328 of 262,420)."

5.3 != near 100%

It's nowhere near.

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, or a topic of debate for society. But as it's already been stated... do not let your emotions or personal history cloud fact-based logic.

The recidivism of sex offenders varies depending on the study. But even the study with the highest % of recidivism was only 52%.

http://www.sexoffender.com/sorecidivism_review.html

If they are so dangerous that you have to track them when they leave, then they need to stay locked up. Laws like these smack of ex post facto since some sex offenders where convicted BEFORE these laws where put into place. A 40 year old raping an 8 year old is bad enough. But don't take a sh*t on the constitution so you can feel like you are doing something.

bbcrackmonkey - technically, that 15 year old is considered a pedophile by the law.

sprgrss: doccm9 - that is a completely worthless analogy. Everyone has the capablity of doing evil and in the case of sex offenders, mainly molesters, they generally do not have records. Such as the case of yourself. No sex register would have the problem there. Think rationally instead of emotionally.

I'm looking at it directly as non participant. Maybe everyone does hold the abillity to commit evil, but those who chose to act on it are something to be taking note of. Especially those convicted and sewntenced to a few years in prison for farking a 14 or 15 year old.

Such as the case of yourself.

Ok, that is one farked up statement.

What percentage of people on sex offender registries across the country are actually pedophiles?

doccm9

bbcrackmonkey: Isn't the recidivism rate of child molesters almost 100%?

Yep.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/rsorp94.htm

Within 3 years following their release, 5.3% of sex offenders (men who had committed rape or sexual assault) were rearrested for another sex crime.

/jackass
//life is shiat to everyone, get off your soapbox

bbcrackmonkey: I lost my virginity at the age of 13 to a girl that was 15. That has nothing to do with child molesters.

In some states the girl could have been charged as a sex offender.

j z: Stole my next point right out of my mouth :)

doccm9

My first real girlfriend was raped at 12 by her brother.

So, the answer to your question is no.

ACEllis: Someone want to look up what the two deceased were convicted of?

I already tried but the Maine sex offender registry is offline.

I did check my local listing and I found out that this fine gentleman is guilty of "CRIMINAL SEXUAL CONDUCT 1ST DEGREE (PERSON UNDER 13)"


Any idea what that means?

Knara: (no, I don't think "make-my-day" laws should be a get-out-of-jail-free card)

They aren't.

Crosshair: But even the study with the highest % of recidivism was only 52%.

Thank god!

Why pin the hero label on someone who willfully gave up their own humanity for the sake of revenge? Is it now noble to give into your animal urges, to let anger consume you? The whole thing is nothing but sad. Nobody had to die. The victims of those two offenders will still bear their scars. If you people want to glorify the death of the soul, go right ahead, but I'll have none of it.

The Man From Mars: My first real girlfriend was raped at 12 by her brother.

So, the answer to your question is no.

Which question?

bbcrackmonkey

i don't care what they do

they could be cannibals

they could be a neo-nazi

they could be pro-terrorist

hell they could be aiding terrorists

they could be worshipping satan and eating the organs of dead babies

i don't care, murder is still murder

if you're willing to say murder is subjective, then so is child rape

The difficult thing about a situation like this is that it's so emotionally charged, there's no way to find any sort of middle ground to agree on. Telling someone they're wrong, or shouldn't be feeling the things they feel in regards to this type of thing is incredibly destructive. I don't claim to have any answers on this, because I don't feel there are any that can appease everyone. The only way that we can make sense of this, as decent people, is to understand that people have earned their feelings.
Just look at it and ask yourself. Two sex offenders were killed by someone who then killed himself. Is the world a better place now? Or is it just more violent? Whatever you feel, that's what it means to you. I've known people close to me that have been affected by this type of thing, alot of people have. Other people have known people screwed over by the loose interpretation of the law. Whatever you, or anyone feels, they've probably bought their opinions with great pain.

sprgrss: bbcrackmonkey - technically, that 15 year old is considered a pedophile by the law.

Well you don't see me pressing charges. One of the best days of my life man.

What, no one is going to talk about the unintended consequences for publicly accepting this form of vigilantism?

i.e. - Why bother simply raping when raping+killing will be treated as an equal crime? If sex offenders are given an automatic, random death penalty by any citizen willing to pull the trigger, then why would an intelligent perpetrator leave a victim to testify against them?

doccm9: Manslaughter is accidental death but with careless intent. Look it up on lexis.

Sure, but they have clearly shown they lack responsibility and have a history of causing death. Shouldn't we be protecting potential child victims from these people?

bbcrackmonkey: Really it's all about a value judgement. Is the innocense of 10 children worth the life of one pedophile?

How innocent do you really think 10 year old children are? I sometimes think adults forget what they knew and thought about when they were young. Regardless, it frightens me you think that condones murder.

mc frontalot: I hope I'm not the only person bothered by the misinformation in this thread. Here are some facts, based on data collected by the Arizona Department of Corrections, on sexual offender recidivism rates:

Kind of a small sample size, though. Be more interested in a longer term, national sample size.

Granted, most people get their information about sex crimes from L&O:SVU, so there's not much a study like that would inform the general populace anyway.

AdamK: if you're willing to say murder is subjective, then so is child rape

So you think somebody shooting a terrorist is the same thing as somebody raping a 7 year old?

sprgrss: technically, that 15 year old is considered a pedophile by the law.

Reread the statute.

That is not justice; your daughter is still alive.

bbcrackmonkey: Well you don't see me pressing charges. One of the best days of my life man.

What about all the persons who were charged under similar circumstances? Do they deserve to be murdered?

Since when were 100% of sex offenders child molesters? Sexual harassment, public acts of sex, soliciting a prostitute, having the wrong picture on your hard drive -- all these things are more common than child molesters. Lets also not forget the system isn't perfect, so a small few may be innocent... and are being tracked down by vigilantes.

All the above are horrible, but there are worse things that people aren't tracked for doing.

/there's no justice like vigilante justice
//really, there isn't!

doccm9 - Sorry, bad usage of the reflexive, I meant in your case. Anyway, here is a hint, watch your children. Get to know who their friends parents are. Despite what you are saying, there is not one instance in this thread in which a sex offender list would have stopped anything. Every sex offender listed so far was not convicted of a sex crime prior to these cases.

But please, I've already posted my stories. Why don't you elucidate me on why I'm wrong and you are right. My only requirement is that you do it logically and rationally without the appeal to emotion (logical fallacy).

bbcrackmonkey: I already tried but the Maine sex offender registry is offline.

Well if that isn't the most obvious statement ever ;)

Don't know what state you're in, but in Michigan that is 750.520b Criminal sexual conduct in the first degree; felony.

"(1) A person is guilty of criminal sexual conduct in the first degree if he or she engages in sexual penetration with another person and if any of the following circumstances exists:

(a) That other person is under 13 years of age.

(b) That other person is at least 13 but less than 16 years of age and any of the following:

(i) The actor is a member of the same household as the victim.

(ii) The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity to the fourth degree.

(iii) The actor is in a position of authority over the victim and used this authority to coerce the victim to submit.

(iv) The actor is a teacher, substitute teacher, or administrator of the public or nonpublic school in which that other person is enrolled.

(c) Sexual penetration occurs under circumstances involving the commission of any other felony.

(Cut for length, you get the drift... check the link for a full description of conditions.)

It's actually kind of loose it seems, it could mean a LOT of different things.

smage: i.e. - Why bother simply raping when raping+killing will be treated as an equal crime? If sex offenders are given an automatic, random death penalty by any citizen willing to pull the trigger, then why would an intelligent perpetrator leave a victim to testify against them?

I think that any sex offender is far more worried about the prison sentence when thinking about leaving witnesses alive than they are about what happens to them after prison. You DO know what their fellow inmates do to child molesters, right?

Knara: Sure, but they have clearly shown they lack responsibility and have a history of causing death. Shouldn't we be protecting potential child victims from these people?

Dead people don't remain emotionally scarred forever. They're dead. I hope that answers the question above as well.

Crosshair: If they are so dangerous that you have to track them when they leave, then they need to stay locked up. Laws like these smack of ex post facto since some sex offenders where convicted BEFORE these laws where put into place. A 40 year old raping an 8 year old is bad enough. But don't take a sh*t on the constitution so you can feel like you are doing something.

It's been tried, locking someone up after their time has been done poses some significant constitutional problems (leading some to try and have them committed to mental hospitals after their sentences have been served).

doccm9: They aren't.

I'm fairly certain that there's at least one state where tresspassing can be grounds for invoking make-my-day statues.

bbcrackmonkey: Well you don't see me pressing charges. One of the best days of my life man.

You don't need to, the state can do it on your behalf. See: statutory rape.

SomeBigFarkingMan: It's actually kind of loose it seems, it could mean a LOT of different things.

Looks like the guy who lives about a block away from me had penetrating sex with a person that was 12 or younger, that's about as much as I can glean from it.

I never understood the idea of a sex offender registry. Wouldn't this allow sex offenders to better network with each other, sharing the tricks of the trade and what not?

Like many of you I fail to see a problem

If the guy shot two convicted (provided they really were guilty, which isnt always teh case) Rapists or Child Molesters (not statutory rapists who got caught having sex with a seventeen year old while 22 but a 35 year old with a 9 year old) then i say good job. Too bad it wasn't three instead of two.

sprgrss:
Anyway, here is a hint, watch your children. Get to know who their friends parents are. Despite what you are saying, there is not one instance in this thread in which a sex offender list would have stopped anything.

Your kids have to ride their bikes past other neighbors. It's a good idea to know who's likely to invite them in for candy.

Crimes that don't happen aren't reported.

doccm9: Reread the statute.

Apparently it's against the law in Michigan, according to SomeBigFarkingMan's post.

SomeBigFarkingMan: (ii) The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity to the fourth degree.

You know, I have this weird mental picture of congressmen having arguments about how far out the relation needs to go to be a crime.

doccm9: Dead people don't remain emotionally scarred forever. They're dead. I hope that answers the question above as well.

Death is irreversible. Trauma is managable. I'm sure your friends would be real happy to know you'd rather they'd been killed than molested.

/sheesh

bbcrackmonkey

So you think somebody shooting a terrorist is the same thing as somebody raping a 7 year old?

go ahead, shoot a terrorist

but notice what i said, very carefully:

i don't care what they do

they could be cannibals

they could be a neo-nazi

they could be pro-terrorist

hell they could be aiding terrorists

they could be worshipping satan and eating the organs of dead babies

i don't care, murder is still murder

if you're willing to say murder is subjective, then so is child rape

i don't consider a person who aids or is pro-terrorism to be a terrorist, they're terrible people, a rich guy in Saudi Arabia who occasionally gives money secretly to an organization who then buys equipment for terrorists - isn't a terrorist, just as George W. Bush isn't a soldier, although being pro-terrorism doesn't mean jack shiat, because i can be pro anything without actually doing anything to support that position...

you still didn't answer anything:

if murder is subjective, any crime can be subjective, therefore rape is subjective

oh hey, that guy raped a 30 year old woman! but it's not as bad as raping a 8 year old! - sure, it's not as bad... but applying this as law? fark that bullshiat, now it's subjective

Felgraf: And, the speeder could kill again!

Interesting you bring that argument up. I have a friend named Adam who accidentally killed an elderly woman because of a minor driving mistake, I think it was a missed turn signal or something. He spent 6 months in jail and went through a youth-prevention program to get it cleared from his record.

Of course, comparing the two crimes are pretty ludicrous because intent is a very large part of the law, and in this case it was an accident whilst child molesters do not accidentally molest children.

doccm9 - since he was thirteen at the time, she would be a pedophile. Just going by the law now.

Some of you guys are completely missing the issue. You are trying to say "Would you rather your friend be raped or murdered?" as a justification for "Murder > Pedophilia". Well guess what, the world isnt so black and white and anyone who tries to deal only in absolutes is just a stubborn idiot who has pre-conceived ideals that wont change no matter what the circumstance. The fact of the matter is killing a pedophile is a lot better than killing a law abiding citizen. Killing a pedophile is also a lot better than a pedophile raping a child, and if you disagree with that then you truly have issues.

Dalar: Since when were 100% of sex offenders child molesters?

That's a very good point. And if someone is accused of rape, regardless of the merits of the accusation, there is a fair chance they will go down. Somehow, I can't see it as a good thing that they may be murdered also.

I think that Murder is worse than Pedophilla.

In my opinion that is an easy one.

But I can empathize with the people who have been or know some one who has been molested and say that it's worse.

My problem with the whole "sex offender registration" lists are that they violate our justice system of a person "paying" for there crime by doing the "time". When they are released they have paid for thier mistakes and are "ready to return to society". At least this is what our justice system is based on.

Now, I could certainly support having a registry like this while they were on a "time limited" probation. But this is like lifetime probation and a permanent "scarlet letter" that in my opinion really sets a bad precident. I won't even get into the all the people that shouldn't be on these lists that have been mentioned above, like the 17 year old sleeping with her 18 year old boyfriend.

What's next? A list of people who have murdered others? (Considering the state of things, I'm suprised this hasn't already happend.) Then it will be the people who stole something as a "dumb 18 year old kid" then it will be the people voted for the "Democrat" in last years election.

/Do not condone Pedophila
//I think it sad that I have to put a disclaimer at the bottom of my post because of this "PC" world

Your kids have to ride their bikes past other neighbors. It's a good idea to know who's likely to invite them in for candy.

That is assuming that I fail as a parent in teaching them to not take candy from a stranger and to not go into a strangers house. You seem to think that 13 year olds are extremely nave. They aren't. Now please quit with the logical fallacies.