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(NY Daily News)   Oy vey. Hasidim riot in Brooklyn after cops pull over 75-year-old driver talking on his cell   (nydailynews.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid  
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11845 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Apr 2006 at 9:12 AM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-04-05 12:15:11 PM  
Devin172:

Cheers, I'll check all that

If they are guilty of everything, they are a shame and committing a very serious crime, sinning in the name of G-d and bringing their shame toward G-d/the rest of the religious community

Abramoff was a shame for the jewish people, and so are any jews who commit unrighteous illegal acts
 
2006-04-05 12:17:47 PM  
Sorry, I grew up locally around there and that whole situation pissed me off to no end.

You have to understand the context as well, there are very few private schools up that way. The public schools are decent but not wonderful. There are no specialty schools like that...most special needs kids doing time in the public system.

When that place opened up a lot of parents saw it as a god send. It was a huge improvement over the normal fare as public schools went and it provided a level and quality of education for special needs kids that was unheard of in the area. Further, since it was funded by the state and public, it didn't pose a financial burden...making it affordable for anyone who could transport their kid there.

Thus, you can understand how pissed off people got when the Hassidic of Kiryas Joel started turning kids away. Way to treat your neighbors.
 
2006-04-05 12:18:11 PM  
misanthropologist: And to be considered not breaking NY law and thus not eligible for potential arrest and detainment, you have to not talk on your cellphone while driving, and not refuse to hand over your papers to police when they ask for them.

Following Halakah does not grant you diplomatic immunity.


of course, where did I deny that? I clearly said that we had to follow the laws of the countries we're in

clambam: Tatsuma, gotta disagree with you on this one. They shouldn't have rioted. There's no excuse for it. It's always deeply embarassing to their fellow Jews when Jews misbehave (witness Jack Abramoff). On the other hand, it's always deeply disturbing when any evidence of Jewish misbehavior is turned into an opportunity to make antisemitic remarks (viz. "burning Jews smell like pork"). It's gotten to the point that when I see someone preface their remarks with "Just because I'm going to criticize the Jews doesn't make me antisemitic" I know they're going to say something REALLY antisemitic.

But I said that they were most likely wrong! I don't side with them

I am feeling somehwat ashamed and I can't wrap my head around what happened

and yeah, whenever something bad happens concerning some jews, it brings the crazies out of the woodwork
 
2006-04-05 12:18:12 PM  
Party Boy

Im not cutting and pasting all that again, as I feel were heading for the typical fark impasse.


I'm doing it for organization and context purposes.


Who cares what crowds tend to do. We have laws, torts, due process. This is how you do things.


This article is not about a court. This article is about a crowd. Hence, the discussion about the crowd's mentality.

What does steak have to do with any of this? If you have money for one buy one. Back to the topic.

It was meant as an example over "should" vs. Reality. And I've got a craving for a steak.

In court, the judge and jury wasnt there. Look up witnesses etc. vis-a-vis law. Also, i wasnt there, Ill compile witness data along with the facts. Facts are missing here.

The crowd saw an old man being apparently manhandled. What more 'facts' do they need to take action, if so inclined?

Again selective hearing. We all do it. Will that hold up in court? It's definately a much weaker case than "I couldnt hear the cops at all" to "I'm tuning you out, Mr. Yelling Policemen"

Alright, perhaps the term "selective hearing" isn't the best one--read my explanation again. I'm not sure what the 'official' term for "can't hear certain frequencies" is. A hearing test that states that the old guy cannot hear the frequencies of the cop's voice would be a perfectly valid defence, in this case.

Doppler effect. In short, Imagine a train coming to you, sound travels in waves. It gets louder and louder as it approaches you, very quickly. The soundwaves are compressed by the moving body.

In the case of the old man talking in a cell phone in his car, moving bodies arent a good argument to discuss why he could listen to a cell phone and not listen to multiple yelling cops.


I didn't bring it up, you did...and I still have no clue how it has any relevance.
 
2006-04-05 12:18:37 PM  
I saw it Persepolis. People repeat the same arguments in every one of these threads ("Semitic is a language group! Arabs are Semites too! You've stolen our word!"). Just as often as they feel entitled to repeat their obfuscations, I feel obliged to refute them. Jew-hatred, whatever you want to call it, is a very real thing. Maybe we're paranoid about it, but as the saying goes, "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you." In particular the Muslim world has declared war on Judaism (don't talk to me about Israel, how about synagogue bombings in Argentina), which means we're outnumbered 80-to-1 there alone. Lots of Christians hate us too. If any other religious group were up against those kind of odds, they'd be long gone. You can't get rid of us that easily.

Incidentally, I visited Persepolis as a kid. Magnificent site. The Iranians were the nicest people I ever met. What happened?
 
2006-04-05 12:19:53 PM  
You know those powerbar commericals where everyone tries to tackle that one dude?

This is what this thread is like, with everyone trying to get Tatsuma, and him not getting tackled.

In the end, some asian guy'll get him, just like the commercial.
 
2006-04-05 12:20:50 PM  
Tatsuma:

2006-04-05 10:25:49 AM

I never said that they were right to react the way they did

I can't possibly judge that situation because I wasn't there and I don't have proofs either ways and frankly, I don't care

My only points here are:

1) Considering my personal experiences with the police and Hassidim/Haredim/Amish/Sufites, I'd take their words before the police
2) Rioting is not always wrong
3) Anti-semitism, while it can mean something else based on it's etymology has been (nearly) always used against the Jews


 
2006-04-05 12:21:43 PM  
Party Boy:

Who cares what crowds tend to do. We have laws, torts, due process. This is how you do things.


Actually, most pivotal steps in American society were brought about by violent, or at the very least extrajudical and illegal means.

The Revolution.

The Civil War

The conquest of the West

The civil rights movement.

The Vietnam anti-war movement.
 
2006-04-05 12:22:38 PM  
Tatsuma - 'and yeah, whenever something bad happens concerning some jews, it brings the crazies out of the woodwork'


And who has posted more than anyone else on this thread?
 
2006-04-05 12:22:54 PM  
clambam: Incidentally, I visited Persepolis as a kid. Magnificent site. The Iranians were the nicest people I ever met. What happened?

Persian people are still pretty nice. Just like any other culture, there are bound to be a few asshats. Unfortunatly, the asshats are running things right now.

If you've seen persepolis, (or takteh-jamshid, as we call it) you'd appreciate Persepolis3D.com

It's a recreation of what it would look like, had the greeks not farked it up.
 
2006-04-05 12:24:10 PM  
Persepolis3D.com

WTF, hopefully that works.
 
2006-04-05 12:24:11 PM  
Tatsuma is to Judaism and Israel what Bevets is to fundie Christianity and creationism. Once you accept that, he become smuch more ammusing.
 
2006-04-05 12:24:11 PM  
Persepolis: It's a recreation of what it would look like, had the greeks not farked it up.

those bloody greeks
 
2006-04-05 12:24:13 PM  
Let me get this straight . . . he can hear the cell phone, but not the cops?
 
2006-04-05 12:26:14 PM  
Smarshmallow: Tatsuma is to Judaism and Israel what Bevets is to fundie Christianity and creationism. Once you accept that, he become smuch more ammusing.

I'm sorry, but you'd be wrong.

I'd be closer to someone like Weaver than bevets

1) Bevet is a mythical creature, rarely seen
2) Bevet only replies to threads about creationism
3) Bevet gives a link to his website and his trademark "Evolution is the tinfoil people put on their head to keep out G-d"
4) Bevet doesn't engage in arguments

I'm pretty sure that I can say that Bevet & me have no similar patterns whatsoever
 
2006-04-05 12:27:12 PM  
WorldKnowledge: Let me get this straight . . . he can hear the cell phone, but not the cops?

www.thebigt.com
 
2006-04-05 12:27:17 PM  
Smarshmallow

Tatsuma is to Judaism and Israel what Bevets is to fundie Christianity and creationism. Once you accept that, he become smuch more ammusing.

Actually, there's a difference between Tatsuma and Bevets--Tatsuma knows what he's talking about, and can make logical conclusions, unlike the ever-quoting Bevets, who just throws out quotes--none of which are his own thinking.

Oh, and Tatsuma's not a farking nutcase.
 
2006-04-05 12:28:01 PM  
I've found the story on CNN now, too. So weird. You see stories about most other riots and you roll your eyes and think 'typical'. But this left me stunned.

They should not have rioted. They should be punished. They were wrong. There is no excuse.

The comparison to Nazi Germany was irresponsible, asinine and stupid.

/Jewish
//No 'buts'
///100% pro-Israel
 
2006-04-05 12:28:01 PM  
muninsfire

I'm missing my pre-lunch swim for this..

Courts, laws, crowds are involved for this.

If you are a group of people who have a problem with the cops via-a-vis police brutality you

* Follow our legal system

not

* Burn down your neighborhood.

______________________________

In order to make a good court case, you have to compile facts beyond witness testimony. Otherwise, its a groups word against the cops.

Whats all this talk of steak. If you are using this as some sort of rhetorical vehicle, its not working. You have me craving steak now.

There is much written about the poor judgement of crowds. Crowds are often wrong. Lets get some facts.

_______

Ok certain frequencies. Lets get some facts and compare them to the multiple screaming cops.

___________

Doppler has a huge effect on how you hear sound. A stationary body does not have this problem.
 
2006-04-05 12:28:32 PM  
muninsfire: Oh, and Tatsuma's not a farking nutcase.

yeah, yeah I forgot to add that

WorldKnowledge: Let me get this straight . . . he can hear the cell phone, but not the cops?

Channeling Rick Romero:

Some people are deaf in only one hear
 
2006-04-05 12:29:06 PM  
WorldKnowledge

Let me get this straight . . . he can hear the cell phone, but not the cops?


Older people sometime are unable to hear certain frequencies, but can hear other frequencies just fine. Depending on the frequency of the cop's voice vs. the frequency of the person on the cellphone's voice, yes, I can see how he could hear the cellphone but not the cop.
 
2006-04-05 12:29:07 PM  
phargle: The comparison to Nazi Germany was irresponsible, asinine and stupid.

agreed, that was very very very wrong
 
2006-04-05 12:29:59 PM  
notfromhere
That was so non-sequitir its not even funny
 
2006-04-05 12:30:28 PM  
Christ On A Stick: Seriously, man, unless you can demonstrate that there is a actual correlation between being hassidic and [insert personality trait here] then every time you attribute that characteristic to hasidim, you are being a bigot, whether that trait is honesty or money-grubbing.

Excellent point. Funny how no one ever seems offended by positive stereotyes (blacks are better athletes, Asians are better at Math), do they? Anyone in this thread pointing out that the guy was being uncooperative is an anti-semite, but it's perfectly OK to claim that as a Hasidim, the man is more honest than the cops involved.

Can't have it both ways, people. Either people who belong to a group can have some common traits ascribed to them, or they can't.
 
2006-04-05 12:31:15 PM  
Adman12

misanthropologist:
///sense of injustice and oppression are not limited to the 'third world'

I agree with you. But what I meant to communicate back there was that riots shouldn't ever have a place in a society of reasonably functioning justice and laws. They shouldn't be happening in the third world, either, but as I see rioting as a last resort of the truly desperate, riots seem to fit in more with the truly intolerable living conditions less fortunate people deal with elsewhere.

Certainly, first world democracies are not as happy-happy-joy-joy as they could be, but I see very little need for rioting under present circumstances. Even if you don't believe the media are as free as they could be, politicians as honest, or the justice system as just, there are reasonable ways to change the situation without burning frickin' police cars.

Are we on the same page here?


Yes indeed we are on the same page. But, as an anthropologist, working in the 'third world' on issues related to development and governance, I think we need to get rid of the outdated construction of first, second, and third worlds. I mean, the Soviet bloc doesn't even exist anymore, making the second world completely outdated.

But I do agree that rioting has no place in a functioning liberal democracy. I'd just add that despite that ideal, we need to be able to explain rioting in terms of senses of injustice and lack of faith in the system, rather than in trying to objectively determine whether a riot was warranted.

We're on the same side here though... so, yeah.
 
2006-04-05 12:32:48 PM  
mrsirjojo: Anyone in this thread pointing out that the guy was being uncooperative is an anti-semite, but it's perfectly OK to claim that as a Hasidim, the man is more honest than the cops involved.

Being Hassidim has to do with religion, not race.
 
2006-04-05 12:32:51 PM  
mrsirjojo

What about traits that are neither? Like Persians are hairier than asians. Or black people are darker than white people?

Is that bigotry, to point that out?
 
2006-04-05 12:32:57 PM  
Tatsuma
Well have to wait for the facts on the hearing out of one ear
 
2006-04-05 12:33:49 PM  
Tastuma:

StatJunkie:

I'm reading Torah according to the classical commentators (Rashi, Ramban), Artscroll's Chumash, the Midrash and the Oral Tradition, plus I listened yesterday to a 2 hours lecture of Rabbi Avi Gellar from Yerushalyim discussing this particular event

Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

Reading the bible literally makes one an idiot. There are too many differences, sometimes in the way the word is spelled, for it to be understandable simply by being read literaly


That's just not fair, you're coping out on me??? You just claimed to be an expert and that I should concede to you simply because you are an expert. You misquoted scripture. You thought it was Jacob and not jacob's son's. Or it that being to literal.

Additionally, I am not being to literal. I am simply saying that you have come up with a conspiracy theory that is not supported by scripture unless you ignore the lines completely and not just read between them.

Refute my points with the Torah, but do not claim to be an expert and I should concede when you're misquoted.

I deserve better than this.

And come on admit it, I got you for once. Christians read the Old Testament from time to time, and some of us do know how to have a reasonable arguement. Give me the satisfaction of a true scriptural debate with you. It'll be fun.

But don't give me the arrogant all-knowing cop-out. You're better than that.

And BTW Gensis Rabbah 80;10 say that Jacob's two sons acted like others and not like jews, and there is no mention of trickery on Hamor's part after the rape of dinah"

Rabbah 80;12 "The barrel is clear and now you have made it murky."

It sounds like Scholars are trying to find a reason to explain Levi's and Simeon's actions as anything other than murderous revenge. Don't get me wrong, murderous revenge may have been appropriete given the times and circumstances.

But Rabbah makes no mention of trickey by anyone other than Levi and Simeon.
 
2006-04-05 12:34:07 PM  
I clicked this thread thinking "Surely Tatsuma will be posting in this one" and was not disappointed. Huzzah.
 
2006-04-05 12:35:52 PM  
muninsfire

"The crowd saw an old man being apparently manhandled. What more 'facts' do they need to take action, if so inclined?"

If you read the article, many of the witnesses saw nothing of the sort. I'm WAY more inclinded to believe it was overreaction on part of an overly insular community.
 
2006-04-05 12:36:24 PM  
?????????

I didn't know Hasidic Jews were so like (insert specific minority here) _____________.

Then again, we have a very small Jewish community in my town and they don't cause any problem at all. There weren't any problems when they build the first Jewish Temple here.

As for the article, they seem to be acting like assorted minorities have in various major cities around the US. (The African-Americans in the LA riots. The Cubans in the Miami Ilian thing. Then basically any minority in a high crime area where a resident gets arrested for any reason -- right or wrong.)

I must say, I'm a bit dissappointed. I didn't think members of the Jewish community acted like that here.
 
2006-04-05 12:37:30 PM  
PartyBoy
I'm missing my pre-lunch swim for this..

Fark's more fun than swimming anyway, ne?

Courts, laws, crowds are involved for this.

If you are a group of people who have a problem with the cops via-a-vis police brutality you

* Follow our legal system

not

* Burn down your neighborhood.


Lovely sentiment. Works wonderfully in an ideal world.

Now, take away the people's trust of the police--'cuz quite frankly, are you inclined to trust the people who have just been carting an elderly member of your community away in an apparently brutal fashion?

In order to make a good court case, you have to compile facts beyond witness testimony. Otherwise, its a groups word against the cops.


And in this case, all that we will ever have is witness testimony. Unless someone Rodney-Kinged the arrest.

Whats all this talk of steak. If you are using this as some sort of rhetorical vehicle, its not working. You have me craving steak now.


MWAHAHAHAH! My evil plot has succeeded!

It was a metaphor, man.


There is much written about the poor judgement of crowds. Crowds are often wrong. Lets get some facts.


But this article is about a crowd. It is not about a judge or a jury.


Ok certain frequencies. Lets get some facts and compare them to the multiple screaming cops.


While we're at it--when you have a bunch of people screaming at you, do you find it difficult to understand what they're saying?

Now, apply that to an old man, who's a bit slower on the draw. Make him a cantankerous old man, who's not had his morning coffee, and suddenly has a bunch of guys screaming unintelligably at him. Starting to see where this leads?


Doppler has a huge effect on how you hear sound. A stationary body does not have this problem.


Yes, I'm fully and completely aware of every aspect of how the doppler effect works. I've taken physics; I'm familiar with it.

I still completely fail to see how the doppler effect has any bearing on this case--especially as it's not an issue due to the low-to-no relative velocities of the parties involved. What point are you trying to make with all this talk of doppler?
 
2006-04-05 12:38:00 PM  
StatJunkie: That's just not fair, you're coping out on me??? You just claimed to be an expert and that I should concede to you simply because you are an expert. You misquoted scripture. You thought it was Jacob and not jacob's son's. Or it that being to literal.

whoa whoa whoa. I'm not copying on you, I'm writing all of this by myself, I only use the Torah as a basis for the right verses.

My point is: My version is Rashi's version. My version is Ramban's version. My version is the Artscroll Chumash version. My version is Rabbi Avi Geller's version

That's the rabbinal conclusion to this chapter and these actions according to rabbis (with various small differences), using Torah, the midrash and the Oral Tradition

You can't understand Torah without two things:

1) Reading Hebrew
2) Reading the commentators

This is too complicated!

Torah is a book of laws with some backstories and explanation to the laws.

The Midrash and the Oral Tradition fills in the gaps
 
2006-04-05 12:38:18 PM  
btw, the jewish TA next door thought Mazeltov coctails was hilariosu
 
2006-04-05 12:39:01 PM  
Tatsuma
Good point, you are a much better debater than bevets, and do attempt to back up your statements, but you also simply ignore questions that you don't want to answer, and you very often answer a different question than what was asked.

My point, though, was your blind devotion to your cause, even in the face of conflicting logic. That fact that you make fun of creationists, but believe in a global flood is evidence to this.

In today's post, your blind acceptance of the idea that religious people are somehow more good or trustworthy than non-religious people, without even an attempt to back that up, is silly.

I appreciate that you stick around and argue back, though, and it was wrong of me to ignore that fact.
 
2006-04-05 12:39:13 PM  
Maybe the riot was just a celebration because Matisyahu broke Bob Marley's record for most reggae albums sold in a week (the Legend Album).
First reggae, then basketball, then breakdancing. Watch us make it happen.

/Jews don't control the world but if we did things would run a bit smoother
//Malum needs to watch out for the Stern Gang. They love whackin wisetrolls.
 
2006-04-05 12:39:37 PM  
I'm sorry, but that must have looked hilarious.
 
2006-04-05 12:40:31 PM  
muninsfire

Your missing medical data. Objective data outside of the crowd of cops vs the crowd of hasidim

/reading the rest now
 
2006-04-05 12:40:31 PM  
StatJunkie: But Rabbah makes no mention of trickey by anyone other than Levi and Simeon.

That's not "trickery", that's how things were

They had raped her, were holding her hostage and were forcing Jacob and his family to give her to them
 
2006-04-05 12:42:45 PM  
Tatsuma

misanthropologist: While I can't dispute your claimes that you've had good experiences with Hassidim and bad experiences with cops, it's absolutely ridiculous to assume that people who aspire to righteousness can't be wrong.

I never said that they can't be wrong, I said that they are more likely to be striving to be righteous thus acting that way

Basically you're choosing to defend the rioters and accept a particular statement that somehow explains why they are righteous in rioting, while discounting conflicting information even when it comes from members of the same righteous community.

I said that I couldn't say whether they were justified or not. I also said that it pointed in the wrong direction and they were mostly wrong

asshat.

You don't bother reading my posts then you insult me. Classy


First of all, I was responding to your reactionary defense of the rioters from the beginning of the post, and responding to your posts as I worked my way through the thread. While you do finally seem to have come to a more reasonable position, my arguments, based on the earlier posts that I read, quoted in their entirety, and responded to, were that your logic is flawed, and that it is absurd to take someone's word because they aspire to be righteous.

Furthermore, you've cut out the substance of my last post in your response in which I pointed out that your willingness to take the word of a hassidim over a cop any day involves a lack of reading comprehension in terms of the article we're posting about. There are conflicting reports from hassidim on whether the man was actually manhandled and treated inappropriately by the cops. You have ignored that and chosen to blindly support the claims of those who justify the rioting on the grounds that police brutality was happening.

And I reserve the right to call you an asshat for your logical flaws. Especially if you're going to get defensive about weak arguments you posted while hungover. Maybe take a breath before posting reactionary rhetoric next time, and really think about the evidence you've got to make your comments on. Of course, that's not really the fark way, so it might mean you'll be less entertaining for the rest of us.
 
2006-04-05 12:42:52 PM  
PartyBoy


Your missing medical data. Objective data outside of the crowd of cops vs the crowd of hasidim


And you're missing my point: You have a crowd of people. They don't trust the cops, who've just run off with one of their friends. Are they going to wait around for some vague process of Justice for old Moshe, you've known him for years, he's a little vague, but never meant any harm, why would they yell at an old man so? I mean, don't they know the man's half-deaf? Why, just last week, when he was in the deli....

Etc.
 
2006-04-05 12:43:36 PM  
Smarshmallow: Good point, you are a much better debater than bevets, and do attempt to back up your statements, but you also simply ignore questions that you don't want to answer, and you very often answer a different question than what was asked.

Perspective, sometimes I just forget. You gotta realize something, I'm more than often discussing with 3 people at the time, and I'm doing it real time. So yes, I might skip questions accidentaly, but I don't go around purposefully avoiding questions

My point, though, was your blind devotion to your cause, even in the face of conflicting logic. That fact that you make fun of creationists, but believe in a global flood is evidence to this.

I stated many times that I don't necessarely believe in a Global Flood

In today's post, your blind acceptance of the idea that religious people are somehow more good or trustworthy than non-religious people, without even an attempt to back that up, is silly.

Whoa whoa there sparkle

Do you people read what I type? I said I'd be more enclined.

MORE ENCLINED.

Again, you're acting like I said "I drink 12 cups of tea a day" rather than what I said "I drank some once and it wasn't too bad"

I appreciate that you stick around and argue back, though, and it was wrong of me to ignore that fact.

thank you
 
2006-04-05 12:46:30 PM  
misanthropologist: First of all, I was responding to your reactionary defense of the rioters from the beginning of the post, and responding to your posts as I worked my way through the thread.

Do you read what I write?

Oy, I said I could understand why they felt that way, if they saw an old man being treated that way, and that's how I said I might react too

While you do finally seem to have come to a more reasonable position, my arguments, based on the earlier posts that I read, quoted in their entirety, and responded to, were that your logic is flawed, and that it is absurd to take someone's word because they aspire to be righteous.

Do you read what I write?

I said that I would be more ENCLINED to believe

Furthermore, you've cut out the substance of my last post in your response in which I pointed out that your willingness to take the word of a hassidim over a cop any day involves a lack of reading comprehension in terms of the article we're posting about. There are conflicting reports from hassidim on whether the man was actually manhandled and treated inappropriately by the cops. You have ignored that and chosen to blindly support the claims of those who justify the rioting on the grounds that police brutality was happening.

Do you read what I write?

I'm not talkign in THIS case, I said that if i had to trust either a hassidim or a cop, I'd probably go with the hassidim

And I reserve the right to call you an asshat for your logical flaws. Especially if you're going to get defensive about weak arguments you posted while hungover. Maybe take a breath before posting reactionary rhetoric next time, and really think about the evidence you've got to make your comments on. Of course, that's not really the fark way, so it might mean you'll be less entertaining for the rest of us.

Please, instead of insulting me, how about you just take time to read and understand?
 
2006-04-05 12:48:00 PM  
Rashi believes in p'shat which means the plain meaning is never departs from the Torah.

Additionally Rambam (Artscroll series) says "that jacob cursed their anger because they did an injustice to the people of the city of Scechem"

Rambam comments a length about the injustice of Levi and Simeon's action, but nothing is mentioned about a consiparcy against Jacob's life by the towns people.

You're dodging me. Give me your source for the conspiracy theory.
 
2006-04-05 12:48:13 PM  
Party Boy: That was so non-sequitir its not even funny


Oh, also changing the spelling of the English language... forgot about that.

non-sequitur. With a "u".

Anyhow, how were my comments a logical fallacy? Many changes in American society (some good, some bad) were brought about violently and / or illegally, and/or exra-judicially.

/ Not saying that the riots here are a good example of said changes.
 
2006-04-05 12:48:51 PM  
muninsfire: Actually, there's a difference between Tatsuma and Bevets--Tatsuma knows what he's talking about, and can make logical conclusions, unlike the ever-quoting Bevets, who just throws out quotes--none of which are his own thinking.

Oh, and Tatsuma's not a farking nutcase.



I do find Tatsuma's style a little aggravating though.

He makes inflammatory statements like:

"if I witnessed police brutality, or some elderly person I knew was treated in such a way, I'd be tempted to torch a police car or two myself,"

"I won't tolerate jack booted thugs to taser some 8 year old girl, and I won't tolerate them to use excessive force on a non-threatening 70 year old man either, jewish or not,"

"Rioting after police brutality? A-ok" and

"I'll take the word anyday of a Hassidim versus a policeman,"

then wiggles around and protests innocently that he never actually said the rioters were justified.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think I know what Tatsuma would've been doing on those streets, had he been there, or had he simply heard the story second hand soon after.

I truly hope I'm wrong. And I'm sorry if I am. But that's the way I read it, based purely on the comments.
 
2006-04-05 12:50:28 PM  
StatJunkie: You're dodging me. Give me your source for the conspiracy theory.

It's part of the Midrash/Oral Tradition

And Ramban says that, which is exactly what I said:

While they were technically right to do it, Jacob cursed them because of the anger that led them to do it instead of showing mercy

It's exactly what I said.
 
2006-04-05 12:50:39 PM  
Tatsuma: Being Hassidim has to do with religion, not race.

Weren't you saying just yesterday that jews are a religion and a race? Let me see.....

2006-04-04 12:11:55 PM Tatsuma [TotalFark]

Magulok: Is being Jewish a religion or are Jews a people? Please explain.

TatsumaIt's a bit of both. It's a people united by a religion. Without religion, there is no people, and without the people, there is no religion.


Ah, the classic "we're a religion" when it's convenient to describe ourselves as such and "we're a race" when it's convenient to describe ourselves as such. Well done Tatsuma.

/see also "any attack on Israeli policy is anti-semitic"!
 
2006-04-05 12:52:07 PM  
Tatsuma
Perspective, sometimes I just forget. You gotta realize something, I'm more than often discussing with 3 people at the time, and I'm doing it real time. So yes, I might skip questions accidentaly, but I don't go around purposefully avoiding questions

Yes, but you forget to answer the same questions every time.

I stated many times that I don't necessarely believe in a Global Flood


Ok, my bad, I missed those times. In my experience, you've supported this scientifically impossible idea.

Whoa whoa there sparkle

Do you people read what I type? I said I'd be more enclined.

MORE ENCLINED.


Well, you may only be more inclinded to believe them, but your jusitification was stated as fact: "When you make your life revolve around being pious and righteous, whichever your religion is, there are far less chances that you'll bend the truth to fit your purposes"

This sounds like a fact, but you offer no evidence to back it up, and, frankly, looking at crime rates in the bible belt as opposed to the less religious northeast, I'd beg to differ. Looking at the lifestyles of people in the middle east and Israel, where some of the most intensely religious people in the world reside, I'd be inclinded to say that your facts are very wrong.
 
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