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(BBC)   Archbishop of Canterbury to creationists: Suck it   (news.bbc.co.uk) divider line 537
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32353 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Mar 2006 at 12:15 PM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-03-21 03:05:16 PM  
i forgot to say....
my mother once told me "people who were not brought to their position by logic, will seldom be led from it by logic"
 
2006-03-21 03:06:19 PM  
faethe: I think it might be because we've only been at this whole "United States' thing for about 275 years and haven't had all the fun historical shiat most other countries have.

We're even younger up here in the north, and it honestly hasn't become an issue here. Yes there are conservative, fundamentalist christians. And they voice their opinion on sex ed and science all the time, but it's usually confined to editorials in news papers and such. I can't think of any case where it has become as big of an issue concerning public institutions and such, I honestly don't know why really.
 
2006-03-21 03:07:02 PM  
Turtles. I forgot!

Now if I could only find that Norse tree of life...
 
2006-03-21 03:07:11 PM  
entropic_existence [TotalFark]
crawlspace: What self-respecting evolution zealot out there is a practicing Christian or professes a belief in God? Remember, I said zealot, you know, like most 20-something farkers. There may be pockets of religious moderates out there, but I'm referring to hard-line evolutionists.

As far as scientists go the two are completely seperate. There are evolutionary biologists out there who believe in God. They accept the theory of evolution but that doesn't impact their religious convictions. The Only opposition between evolution and religion is concernign strict and literal interpretations of the creation as laid out in genesis.


entropic_existence nailed it in the last sentence of this post.

For the secular crowd, their boogeymen are those fundamentalists who strictly interpret the old testament. Forget those people. They might get media attention because they make for alarming news copy, but they are not the majority. Just like all evolutionists are not athiests.

The Christian majority recognize the old testament for the flowery metaphor and stern language it really is. Believe it or not, most Christians DO have a grasp of things like geologic timescales and the possibility of evolution.

Again. People are people. Faith is faith. Abstract or not.
 
2006-03-21 03:08:06 PM  
Reveilled: Paraphrased, of course, but it was said with unbelieveable difficulty and reluctance, upon which the media practically exploded because he said the "g"-word. Every news outlet in the country turned into The Sun for a day or two.

Sort of the same deal here, which I think we inherited from our British beginnings. Sure Parliamentary sessions I think open with a blessing by a minister or something, but you rarely see a Politician even say the word God. and when they do alot of people get a little uncomfortable.
 
2006-03-21 03:10:08 PM  
crawlspace: For the secular crowd, their boogeymen are those fundamentalists who strictly interpret the old testament. Forget those people. They might get media attention because they make for alarming news copy, but they are not the majority. Just like all evolutionists are not athiests.

The Christian majority recognize the old testament for the flowery metaphor and stern language it really is. Believe it or not, most Christians DO have a grasp of things like geologic timescales and the possibility of evolution.


The problem is, the mainstream Christian majority isn't doing their share of standing up and saying they don't want to be associated with the non-sense the hard line fundamentalists are putting out, and the fundamentalists have A LOT of political clout in the United States.

The people arguing against creationism being taught in school aren't arguing against religion, only arguing against it being put someplace where it doesn't deserve to be.
 
2006-03-21 03:13:23 PM  
Mugato: I don't think it's an issue of being uptight. Why in the world would you think that a creation myth belongs in a science class?

Oh, come on now. It's obvious that if evolution is true, then the story of Genesis in the Bible is highly unlikely to be true. And if certain sections of the Bible aren't true, then the whole Bible could be brought into question. And if the whole Bible is suspect, then the whole idea of Christianity is suspect. And then you get a lot of people not believing in Christianity, loss of revenue for the Church and a lot more people burning in eternal Hell.

So they want both "theories" taught side by side, just to give them the air of "equal probability."

Personally, I can't understand why people believe in Genesis at all, not for the whole "Earth created in six days" stuff, but for the juvenile way in which God acts with his two new children.

Imagine, God making Adam and Eve, who are totally ignorant of everything. He shows them a tree, and says, "do not eat from this tree or you'll be in trouble."

Adam and Eve, being totally ignorant and thus not understanding the concept of repercussions, eat from the tree anyway.

So God tosses them out of the Garden of Eden.

And the kicker is, since he is (allegedly) all-knowing, he already KNEW that they'd do it! But he tosses them out anyway!

What a jerk! If that's how God treats his ignorant little children, I'd never let him watch MY kids.

I happen to believe God isn't such a jerk, so I don't believe the story of Genesis and also do not subscribe to the teachings of traditional Christianity.
 
2006-03-21 03:13:37 PM  
Reveilled: It doesn't go far into civic life. We have some bishops in parliament, but religion is an extremely private issue in British government, and in the words of one of the government's spin doctors "we don't do God". Recently, when talking about the war in Iraq, Tony Blair said that ultimately his concious would judge him "and, you know, umm, if you, believe in a higher power, then, err, god will judge me too." Paraphrased, of course, but it was said with unbelieveable difficulty and reluctance, upon which the media practically exploded because he said the "g"-word. Every news outlet in the country turned into The Sun for a day or two.


I read about that on BBC! You know - its because of his association with Bush I think he caught that much flak. Bush is a 'born again Christian' which I think is a uniquely American thing. It doesn't mean you are a zealot, but there are a LOT of zealots associated with them. I'm not too sure specifically which Church they are associated with. I think they just sort of pop up here and there and gain popularity. I'm not sure who their central authority is, or if they have one. Anyways, Bush's father is an Episcopalian, and you never, ever hear anyone bring that up. I mean, he's not been shy about saying so when asked. When I read Tony Blair's quote it struck me that he was speaking from a personal point of view - sharing his philosophy, not advocating any Church. I'm not so sure people see a distinction when they hear Bush do it, as it appears he had made the visibility of the church part of his political platform (with HUGE mixed results). See? This is where you get issues like this that have long ago been settled in places like Europe. Everyone here thinks this is the apolcalyse or some maudlin shiat that is just bizzare.
 
2006-03-21 03:13:40 PM  
elchip

One thing you fail to take into account, there are approximately 5x10^30 bacteria on earth. That's 71 million times more than the number of stars in the known universe. Further the generation time of bacteria is about 1 day.

Secondly, unlike the works of shakespeare example, there are many possible right answers. There's nothing magical about one particular protein structure that makes it the only possible protein to fill a given role. In fact for your average protein there are thousands if not millions of DNA sequences that can make that protein, because of all the combinations of degenerate codons. And many mutations that do change the protein sequence also don't affect function; typically function-altering mutations happen only at certain sites, and then only when making changes that affect folding or functionality. For example exchanging a positively charged residue for a negatively charged one, or a hydrophobic for a hydrophilic is far more likely to change function than other types of substitutions, especially if the electrical or hydrophilic property was important for function.
 
2006-03-21 03:17:14 PM  
Fakk i think you're supposed to capitalize Jerk.
also it couldn't have helped that He made Eve insanely hot.
 
2006-03-21 03:20:22 PM  
wjllope: there's a special handshake. if you don't use it, they go missionary on you until you're saved.


Yeah I know. I get the 'born agains' who tell me I'lll go burn in hell or something original like that if I don't go and be baptised in their faith. When I inform them that was taken care of was I was just a baby, with the appropriate photography, gown, and all that nonsense, they seem to think that doesn't count. I'm thinking mabye their definition of rude is exclusively when someone tells them to fark off, you know? Explaining to them that religion is something intensely personal that is not considered a hot topic of conversation doesn't seem to faze them either. But these are the same people who enjoy rolling around on the floor and babbling stuff that perhaps only James Brown can successfully interpret.

This is a mean joke I share with my husband. There are certain Christians who believe that in order to know God you must be child-like in your innocence. I would suggest that means behaving like rude little bastards that need Super Nanny put onto them as soon as possible.
 
2006-03-21 03:31:14 PM  
FloydA: Thank you. This persecution complex among a few fringe Christians ("oh no, he said happy holidays! I'm being oppressed!") really makes me nauseous when I think about actual persecution.

Me too.

Persecution:
www.aref.de
Persecution:
www.rapturechrist.com
Persecution:
perso.wanadoo.fr
Persecution:
www.wcsh6.com
Persecution:
i.a.cnn.netwww.dnronline.com
Not Persecution:
www.w3ar.com
 
2006-03-21 03:31:21 PM  
entropic_existence [TotalFark]
The problem is, the mainstream Christian majority isn't doing their share of standing up and saying they don't want to be associated with the non-sense the hard line fundamentalists are putting out, and the fundamentalists have A LOT of political clout in the United States.


The same could be said of evolutionists who chose to lump themselves in with militant anti-conservative, anti-religious crowds. (I almost said the L word there...I know people around here are touchy about that). I won't label 'liberal' if you won't label 'neocon', how's that?

You and I clearly disagree on this topic but were able to engage in a discussion where we addressed perception and thought as it relates to the topic. Those who occupy your side of the isle on this debate are every bit as prone to being prejoritive and demeaning to the opposition as ANY religious fundie might.
 
2006-03-21 03:32:24 PM  
entropic_existence: We're even younger up here in the north, and it honestly hasn't become an issue here. Yes there are conservative, fundamentalist christians. And they voice their opinion on sex ed and science all the time, but it's usually confined to editorials in news papers and such. I can't think of any case where it has become as big of an issue concerning public institutions and such, I honestly don't know why really.


Because even if you are a young country - you've still a lot of that British history and attitude towards goverment. How you are judged by your fellow person need not rely exclusively on your attitude towards religion. There's other things that count, you know? Like whether you are a productive member of society, a 'moral' person, are able to support yourself and help others. Priorities, and a cultural tendency to keep personal issues private, and not advertise them on farking billboards alongside the road with pictures of big bloody fetuses and all sorts of attention getting tactics. You get people in Britain, as I understand it, who complain when things violate their sense of propriety. The whole "Jerry Springer' opera thing is one case I know of, because it spent a lot of time having fun with Christianity. But you are not going to get a movement of peoples who think that creationism needs be taught in primary school to people who very obviously have different religious backgrounds, whether they like it or not. I mean, that just defies logic to me. At first I thought it would be nice to have an alternative to evolution taught. Something like a cultural anthropolgy thing, that goes into creation mythos for different groups of people. I'm a huge Joseph Campbell fan. Then I started to realize what it was they were doing, and it freaked me completely out. Like whoever the fark thought that was a good idea? If anything its served to polarize science and Christianity, which IMO is the worst possible outcome.
 
2006-03-21 03:34:06 PM  
5uperman: Persecution

You sort of proved my point by showing that there is very little persecution of Christians carried out in America.

Yeah, there are the church arsonists, but that was the work of what... two deranged individuals?
 
2006-03-21 03:34:48 PM  
5uperman: Persecution:

Spartacus was Christian?
 
2006-03-21 03:34:55 PM  
faethe: whether you are a productive member of society

i guess everyone here can be ruled out.
 
2006-03-21 03:36:40 PM  
5uperman

You can complain about persecution when you're afraid to wear a crucifix in public. Or when you're afraid of losing your job if your co-workers find out you go to church.
 
2006-03-21 03:37:12 PM  
5uperman: Me too.

You got exactly one out of 6 right.
 
2006-03-21 03:37:31 PM  
elchip: Yeah, there are the church arsonists, but that was the work of what... two deranged individuals?


No one knows who is doing that shiat, or why. Last I heard they thought it was two people working in unison, but no one knows why they are doing it. It would appear to be anti-religious sentiment, but who knows? It may be someone who's just a random attention seeking asshole. My Husbands family lives near a lot of the ones that were burned in mid Alabama, but they are Catholic, and you know. The big granite cathedral people so it would take an atomic bomb to make a dent in any of that shiat.
 
2006-03-21 03:38:12 PM  
elchip: i guess everyone here can be ruled out.


Yeah man I have to GBTW...bleh.

Fark is teh DEVIL!
 
2006-03-21 03:38:59 PM  
crawlspace: You and I clearly disagree on this topic but were able to engage in a discussion where we addressed perception and thought as it relates to the topic. Those who occupy your side of the isle on this debate are every bit as prone to being prejoritive and demeaning to the opposition as ANY religious fundie might.

That's why I always speak about fundamentalist, literalist christian groups as opposed to "conservative." Purity of meaning is everything in a debate and try and chose my words carefully. That and I never argue about the existence/non-existence of God, god(s), or what have you. Religion is a personal affair in my opinion.
 
2006-03-21 03:39:41 PM  
elchip: You sort of proved my point by showing that there is very little persecution of Christians carried out in America.

There is very little persecution of ANYONE in America, certainly not anything akin to the picture you represented. I was simply positing that the level of persecution is relatively high now compared to overall persecution of all Americans.

/yes, yes, yes, race is still a problem, but I sincerely doubt you could have a forum like Fark where every other thread is about the idiocy of blacks and mexicans. Think about it.
 
2006-03-21 03:42:18 PM  
5uperman: There is very little persecution of ANYONE in America

i listen to country. i use a mac. i own an SUV (wife's ride). i live in texas.
so it should be clear i get persecuted all the time.

oh wait - you mean religious persecution - nevermind
 
2006-03-21 03:42:51 PM  
5uperman: /yes, yes, yes, race is still a problem, but I sincerely doubt you could have a forum like Fark where every other thread is about the idiocy of blacks and mexicans. Think about it.

Last I checked these threads are talking about one particular sub group of a much larger religion, not the religion as a whole. Sure you get the people who take a hardline athiestic stance that all religion is absurd, just like you get a small group of people raving about the persecution of christians as a whole and how everyone who opposes them as a silly heathen or athiest.
 
2006-03-21 03:46:37 PM  
Just a note: SonicWall at the cafe I'm at blocks Bevets' site as being a forbidden Cult/Occult site.

Of course, SonicWall doesn't stop anyone with half a brain or anyone who knows what a proxy server is, or anyone who can claim both...
 
2006-03-21 03:47:37 PM  
entropic_existence: Last I checked these threads are talking about one particular sub group of a much larger religion, not the religion as a whole.

If only that were true. I am afraid most of your compatriots are quick to slander religion in its entirety.

Fundies, Wack-jobs, etc.

I wish we could sit down and have an amicable conversation about philosophy, but most people here resort to calling names and scoring points with personal attacks.
 
2006-03-21 03:49:10 PM  
5uperman: There is very little persecution of ANYONE in America, certainly not anything akin to the picture you represented.

No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. -George H. W. Bush

In addition to being an intolerant asshat, he's not too strong on basic civics.
 
jre
2006-03-21 03:53:19 PM  
I don't understand fundamentalists.

They state the bible is the word of God. Sure, okay.

They state Jesus taught in parables. No shiat.

They state Jesus is God. Most of them state this, at least.

Yet...

The idea of God teaching a parable (such as... oh, let's say the creation accounts in Genesis) is NOT POSSIBLE! "HARRUMPH," they say, muttonchops a-billowing in rage, banging their fists on their desks loudly and violently enough to upset their snuff-boxes.

Utter nonsense.
 
2006-03-21 03:53:20 PM  
FloydA: ...Should the alternative hypothesis, that 2+2 does not equal 4 be given equal time?

FlashHarry: By that logic, the theory that the universe was shat out of the anus of a giant toad should be taught right alongside.

These arguments are specious. Nobody believes that 2+2=5 or that the universe was shat out of toad's anus, and there is no public support to have these things taught in school.

In contrast, there is overwhelming public support for teaching ID. 69 percent of Americans support the presentation of Intelligent Design in school.
 
2006-03-21 03:53:24 PM  
5uperman
/yes, yes, yes, race is still a problem, but I sincerely doubt you could have a forum like Fark where every other thread is about the idiocy of blacks and mexicans. Think about it.

Black people and Mexicans who literally believe in creationism (as opposed to evolution) are idiots.
 
2006-03-21 03:53:50 PM  
God is omnipresent? You mean he was in the room last night when I... did certain things?
 
2006-03-21 03:54:40 PM  
Thank you, Archbishop of Canterbury. It's about time. He got it just right.
 
2006-03-21 03:55:47 PM  
Lord Summerisle: You mean he was in the room last night when I... did certain things?

yes - and He laughed.
 
2006-03-21 03:56:33 PM  
SkinnyHead: In contrast, there is overwhelming public support for teaching ID. 69 percent of Americans support the presentation of Intelligent Design in school.

And this is why we're not a Democracy. It is unconstitutional to teach religion as science. Now get the hell off my lawn.
 
2006-03-21 03:56:41 PM  
work in retail and boy did I enjoy saying happy holidays to my customers this past December. I got cussed out on one occasion b/c I refused to say merry Christmas... umm a little hypocritical perhaps??? YES

War on Christmas my butt...

...Christmas [25th of Dec] was a pagan holiday at first (Christians did not celebrate it, only acknowledged Easter), but to get more into Christianity the church began to celebrate Christmas so it would look fun and attract others to the faith (yes a little oversimplified but the premise is true)
 
2006-03-21 03:57:15 PM  
pestossimo

When I saw that site you posted I went up a level and looked at the list. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. The very questions posed say it all.

//People actually pose questions so silly?
 
2006-03-21 03:58:07 PM  
Intelligent Design in is not science... it is faith.

/done
 
2006-03-21 04:01:23 PM  
5uperman

I am afraid most of your compatriots are quick to slander religion in its entirety.

Fundies, Wack-jobs, etc.


What makes you think the terms "fundie" and "whack-job" are references to all religious people? It seems to me that the only one making the association between "fundy whack job" and "religion in its entirety" is you.
 
2006-03-21 04:01:44 PM  
8-bit-nintendo Intelligent Design in is not science... it is faith.

Pat Robertson confirmed that when he told the people of Mass. that they had abondonned God when they voted out the school board members who were pushing to have ID in the classroom. That's what I live about Pat: he doesn't bother to check the playbook before spouting off his stupidity and blowing carefully constructed coverstoried all to hell.

 
2006-03-21 04:01:53 PM  
Sloth_DC: Now get the hell off my lawn.

kids - listen to Sloth_DC!!!!

after today's news story, that phrase is truly ominous.
 
2006-03-21 04:03:56 PM  
FloydA What makes you think the terms "fundie" and "whack-job" are references to all religious people? It seems to me that the only one making the association between "fundy whack job" and "religion in its entirety" is you.

Great. Now how is he supposed to feel persicuted?

 
2006-03-21 04:04:18 PM  
8-bit-nintendo: Intelligent Design in is not science... it is faith.


I'm not even sure it's faith. It's a mess of bad ideas that can't be categorized under anything other than 'marketing'.
 
2006-03-21 04:04:25 PM  
Hero tag really fits here.

/waving Archbishop of Canterbury pennant
 
2006-03-21 04:06:28 PM  
waynesworld: /waving Archbishop of Canterbury pennant

careful.

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
 
2006-03-21 04:07:52 PM  
"In the Beginning, God Created Fark & he saw that it was good..."

/The Bible is NOT a Science Textbook, However when it makes a statement regarding science, It is correct. (little things like the earth as sphere & many More!) Read & understand it before you bash it...

//God never says, "I think" or "the Theory is" He knows.
 
2006-03-21 04:08:11 PM  
SkinnyHead: In contrast, there is overwhelming public support for teaching ID. 69 percent of Americans support the presentation of Intelligent Design in school.

Reality isn't decided by popular vote. If 70% of people wanted it taught that the Earth was flat, it would still be round.
 
2006-03-21 04:09:21 PM  
i5.photobucket.com

/Sorry I'm late
 
2006-03-21 04:14:07 PM  
Wingover: /The Bible is NOT a Science Textbook, However when it makes a statement regarding science, It is correct. (little things like the earth as sphere & many More!) Read & understand it before you bash it...

Errr, yeah. We've come a long way from claiming that the world is flat because the Bible says it is. Now we claim the Bible says the world is spherical, and anyone who points out that this requires, umm, "creative" translation is a damn lying heathen. Ifni, but I love the fundie mindset.

//God never says, "I think" or "the Theory is" He knows.

Much like Sherlock Holmes, he only knows as much as his author.
 
2006-03-21 04:14:25 PM  
SkinnyHead

In contrast, there is overwhelming public support for teaching ID. 69 percent of Americans support the presentation of Intelligent Design in school.

So what? I'm going to be blunt and let go of my usual temperate, moderate and polite demeanor. ID creationism is absolute bullshiate. It is a lie, plain and simple. The proponents are professional snake oil salesmen who are preying on innocent people of faith who don't know any better. Every single word of creationism is a flagrant, deliberate lie. All of it. There is not one aspect of creationism that bears any scrutiny whatsoever.

Christianity is something entirely different from creationism. Christianity is a collection of religious beliefs. Creationism is not even theologically sound, it is a form of idolatry and it is an insult to all sane religious people.

If 69% of all Americans want to eat dog faeces, that does not make them delicious.

Creationism is a lie entire and creationists are liars. They are either deliberate and malicious liars or they are dupes who are either too stupid or too lazy to do the work required for an actual understanding of biology. I've talked to you about this topic before, as have many others, so you can't claim to be unaware of the facts.

So which are you, SkinnyHead, a liar or a dupe?

/I now return to my regularly scheduled decency and politeness.
 
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