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(High Times)   New Zogby poll shows half of Americans believe marijuana should be legislated and taxed like alcohol   (hightimes.com) divider line 597
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9435 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Mar 2006 at 12:36 AM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-03-20 02:56:31 AM  
mrexcess: scientific evidence that marijuana causes brain damage

Microbe: Yup. I know that, you know that....apparently DiamondSmasher did not know this, however. Until now.

/lets see if he notices

The thread's deteriorated guys. You put words in my mouth. I never used the word damage. It was effect, and I don't want to scroll up and find it. I was right about what I said. You guys are militant pot enthusiasts, and it is a waste of time arguing with you, because your naive minds are made up.
 
2006-03-20 02:56:48 AM  
Hmm. I haven't heard a lot of anecdotal observations about marijuana causing brain damage, but I'd bet all of us have heard the scientific evidence about the damage caused by tobacco. Come to think of it, we have heard evidence of marijuana being a painkiller, especially with cancer patients. But I haven't heard one single redeeming feature about the benefits of tobacco.

Maybe smoking pot isn't good for you, but is second hand pot smoke any worse than the second hand tobacco smoke in night clubs that probably helped kill Dana Reeve?

I say, go ahead and legalize marijuana, but unless it is used for medicinal purposes, slap a big luxury tax on it and let's make sure we do the same for tobacco also.
 
2006-03-20 02:57:23 AM  
DiamondSmasher


Cathedralmaster

Hearing people complain about living in the US is getting old. I am surrounded by happy people living rewarding lives. I write home about it and tell my friends to move. If you are unhappy, look for a way to change your life. It is legal to cross state lines without a passport. It has never been easier to get an affordable education. Anyone can get a student loan. The world is your oyster. Get off the couch and make something of your life. Believe me, it is possible.


Happiness is a facade, but I am glad you're doing well with your affordable education.

So which state is this that is nothing but smiles?
 
2006-03-20 02:59:20 AM  
DiamondSmasher
I never used the word damage. It was effect

So...what sort of "effect" does it have, specifically? You claimed to know from personal experience, and went on to describe some rather negative symptoms.

C'mon, we're all on the edges of our seats up in here.
 
2006-03-20 02:59:42 AM  
mrexcess

America's greatness is in the ability of the individual to excel while all are protected to a basic degree, in my view. We're willing to recognize merit while not telling the poor, weak, and unfortunate to get lost.
 
2006-03-20 03:01:34 AM  
tallbaldville
I say, go ahead and legalize marijuana, but unless it is used for medicinal purposes, slap a big luxury tax on it and let's make sure we do the same for tobacco also.

The use of the tax system to punish supposed immorality is an abuse of the system that will, eventually, come back to haunt those who abuse it.

Buying your freedom from the government is no better than slavery.
 
2006-03-20 03:02:48 AM  
drunkMSUguy: I'm sorry to say, but the Medicinal Marijuana front is a sham.

I don't know, I've seen a few papers written by medical doctors and testimonies from patients that would disagree.
 
2006-03-20 03:03:38 AM  
worldbeater: So...it's all about economy then? Production? This better than that? Nothing for the very real value of diversity? Diversity of thought, diversity of experience, diversity of possibility? That's a shame, and not only because we tend to lose that which we don't care for.
 
2006-03-20 03:04:58 AM  
legalize everything, put the age of consent for everything at 18 (including sex, driving, and holding a full-time job) and let the FSM sort 'em out.
 
2006-03-20 03:05:36 AM  
America was born from dissent over taxation of the American colonies by Britian to help repay for defense during the French and Indian War. Colonial Americans didn't give two-diddly shiats about what George III did up until he tried to tax them (justifiably to boot). So in essence, economic liberty was the leading cause of the birth and rise of America and its ideals.
 
2006-03-20 03:08:44 AM  
mrexcess: Are you saying then, that you don't believe in the luxury tax? That's fine with me if you don't. But aren't there a lot of other taxes that enslave us also? Isn't the luxury tax one of the least of our worries from our current government?
 
2006-03-20 03:08:49 AM  
drunkMSUguy
Colonial Americans didn't give two-diddly shiats about what George III did up until he tried to tax them

You may want to stop drinking long enough to attend an american history class at MSU.
 
2006-03-20 03:10:45 AM  
Mugato: I don't know, I've seen a few papers written by medical doctors and testimonies from patients that would disagree.

For what situations? Glaucoma can be equally/more effectively treated with other drugs and there are a multitude of pain killers out there that work fine and won't render your ass as a Dorito Dumpster for a couple hours.

Going to go out on a limb here and say that 99.9 percent of medicinal marijuana advocates secretly just want an excuse to get farkin' high and watch Cartoon Network all day.

/dudeeeeeeee
 
2006-03-20 03:10:55 AM  
tallbaldwillie
mrexcess: Are you saying then, that you don't believe in the luxury tax?

That's precisely what I'm saying. Taxes are there to fund the government in the most equitable and efficient way possible, not to regulate our behavior. That's what law is for. Using taxes to regulate behavior is simply doing an end-run around the limitations placed upon government power by the Constitution. For the life of me I don't understand why we put up with it.

But aren't there a lot of other taxes that enslave us also?

Absolutely...every "sin tax" is a loogie right in the face of liberty, as far as I'm concerned.
 
2006-03-20 03:11:41 AM  
mrexcess

I was speaking only of the good in the political sense. I feel that is is vital for all people to have a basic standard of living for them to be truly equal as citizens of the government.

When talking about the state, cultural and personal differences ought not be considered, no matter how valuable they actually are. I'm speaking of the value of a certain type of government here, and I think you'd probably agree with me if I make it clear. I'm firmly in the camp of this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rawls
The fact that one of his best known works is "Justice as Fairness" ought to clue you in on what I view the state as.

Cultural diversity is a great thing, but I don't need the government to facilitate it.
 
2006-03-20 03:12:12 AM  
reapeat: we don't get to make decisions here in amurika anymore. alcohol kills. cigs kill.

i never heard of anybody dying from cannibis o.d. i heard from a college buddy who is still in prison for selling grass. he says he doesn't get beat up so much since he started sucking dick.

wars are profitable. esp the drug war. aforementioned buddy won't have a car or a truck when he gets out in 14 years. guess he shouldn't have smoked that joint on federal land huh?

i have to get a new job. i quit mine friday.

bombs are fun to take apart, not put together. i won't be used in that fashion.


bah. disgustipated.
 
2006-03-20 03:12:47 AM  
mrexcess
C'mon, we're all on the edges of our seats up in here.

I already told you in my Boobies that made you flip out with stoner indignation. You really get emotional about this pot stuff. I said that it was a harmful drug that makes people become lazy and lose their ambition. It changes personalities for the long term. It creates a subculture that separates people who use it from people who don't. I was right. It doesn't matter to me that you and a handful of stoners in this thread want to attack me for it.

The "edge of our seats" line sucked. Calm down for goodness' sake. Were arguing about a destructive illegal drug. You are passionately supporting it. Think about it. Are you this passionate about anything good and right?
 
2006-03-20 03:13:53 AM  
mrexcess: You may want to stop drinking long enough to attend an american history class at MSU.

Ha, Ad Hominem FTW!

But seriously, the Proclamation Line of 1763 and subsequent tax acts were the main catalysts for the Revolution.
 
2006-03-20 03:16:58 AM  
worldbeater
I was speaking only of the good in the political sense.

For my part, I've found "political sense" to be mostly an oxymoron. ;)

I feel that is is vital for all people to have a basic standard of living for them to be truly equal as citizens of the government.

Absolutely. Far sighted of you.

When talking about the state, cultural and personal differences ought not be considered, no matter how valuable they actually are.

I'm not sure if I'd agree with that as a blanket. The judiciary, I think, is there to consider each case on its individual merits. That said, if you're talking about equality of rights, I'm with you 100%. Everyone should have the same rights.

Cultural diversity is a great thing, but I don't need the government to facilitate it.

It needn't facilitate, in fact it *can't*, I'd argue. The most useful diversity is achieved by leaving everyone the fark alone. But we need to take several steps back from where we are now, which is overly obsessed with enforcing homogeny and "good choices" (when if there's one thing the sum history of biological life teaches us, its that there is no one "right choice" or "right answer").
 
2006-03-20 03:17:13 AM  
DiamondSmasher

That fact that you don't see that it is "good and right" for people to be free to do as they wish with their own bodies and minds is deeply troubling. I should be free to eat what I wish, I should be free to drink what I wish, and I should be free to smoke what I wish. Anything else is an immoral infringement of my liberty.= to do whatever I want so long as I don't infringe on the rights of others.
 
2006-03-20 03:17:56 AM  
anyone think this is a war against "hard" drug users?

how bout "hard" criminals?

how bout guys with 2 tickets for possession?

he had 22k in his acct fo his last year of housing and tuition, and two vehicles prior to asset seizure.
 
2006-03-20 03:19:09 AM  
Why did Fark insert the word Boobies in my post? I saw that happen to someone else in this thread.
 
2006-03-20 03:20:38 AM  
f!r5t p0s+ = boobies
 
2006-03-20 03:21:18 AM  
DiamondSmasher
I said that it was a harmful drug that makes people become lazy and lose their ambition.

Right, you "said". As opposed to "demonstrated by presenting empirical evidence". Which is the crux of my beef with your whole argument -- its personal opinion carefully phrased to sound a lot more substantive than it is.

Were arguing about a destructive illegal drug.

You have yet to offer one shred of valid evidence to support your claim that marijuana is destructive. And no, what your stoner friends act like doesn't count.

drunkMSUguy
But seriously, the Proclamation Line of 1763 and subsequent tax acts were the main catalysts for the Revolution.

Last straws, yes. Causes? No.
 
2006-03-20 03:21:56 AM  
www.phil.vt.edu
This is your brain.


www.ljplus.ru
This is your brain on marijuana.
 
2006-03-20 03:22:45 AM  
read this
 
2006-03-20 03:24:44 AM  
DiamondSmasher
Are you this passionate about anything good and right?

Fails at trolling.
 
2006-03-20 03:25:24 AM  
(3rd one down) DiamondSmasher
 
2006-03-20 03:25:57 AM  
Just a question for all those saying people would just grow their own...

Why not make it legal to buy/possess, but illegal to grow yourself, like tobacco? Put a penalty on that of, say, 6 months in jail, and legislate that all cannabis sold must be pure and organic.

That way, the corps get their money, the people get their weed, and nobody has to smoke cyanide.
 
2006-03-20 03:26:24 AM  
Ah I get it. But I didn't use the phrase Boobies in that context.
 
2006-03-20 03:27:14 AM  
hitchking: j z: According to most pot heads marijuana doesn't affect their ability to drive a car or operate machinery. That's enough of a reason for me to keep it illegal. It's also proof that weed makes you dumb.

*head asplode from bad logic*


Have to agree with the head asploding. As a youth I made the bad descion to drive once while high. I should have been arrested. Luckily, the universe intervened though the always useful idiocy clause and I ended up driving said car into a ditch out in the country at one in the morning. Learned my lesson real quick out in the mud with the cows.
 
2006-03-20 03:27:48 AM  
I think the whole issue with the argument going on with the rich kid can be summed up with:

madcat033: I think pot being illegal provides youths with a safe indiscretion and I believe that without it being illegal it won't be seen as a sufficient youthful indiscretion and our youths will do coke instead.

mrexcess: Holy crap, I'm still stuck on the fact that you used your horribly non-representative life example as a reason why it's such a safe culture and that it doesn't benefit the US in a crime reducing way.

Someone above mentioned that they were surprised that legalization hasn't happened in places like Oregon, Washington and California yet. Probably because of the large liberal mindset in these regions. I live in the bay area and can tell you that liberals and democrats don't necessarily fall in line with legalization as republicans do for scorning pot.

I'm a libertarian and that's my bias. But my experiences growing up show that liberals in general feel their judgement and intelligence should supercede that of the general public, and that the general public is too stupid to run their own life.

If we didn't garnish your wages to provide social security, people would be too stupid to invest and make their own retirement plan and die on the street when they hit 60.

If we didn't use taxes to strong arm employers into offering health insurance, then people wouldn't be smart enough to take some of their money and buy it on their own, and we'd have people dying because they can't get surgeries they need.

If we legalized marijuana, then everyone would be able to get it so cheaply and so easily, and without the threat of jailtime everyone would be high constantly, never stop smoking, 10 year olds would instantly all become pot fiends because parents aren't smart enough or good enough to teach their kids what's smart and what's going to hurt their lives.

Now this leads me to agree with madcat on one issue which is the "cool" factor of it being illegal actually helps get it into kids' hands. If it becomes illegal, drug dealers go out of business, legit establishments won't sell to minors. The only way minors will get it will be to get it from older siblings, etc. I feel like people selling pot to 12 year olds could still be illegal and punishable in order to make the general populace happy with decriminalization and to negate the "think of the children" thing.

I see youth usage going down though. But I disagree with madcat that kids NEED some kind of elicit behavior. What kids need is to be cool. I think the appeal is the social aspect. It's a group effort to acquire (hey I know a guy who knows a guy, we're friends, he'll hook us up and give us the good deal). I guess to see what happens to pot after decriminalization would be a lot like looking at high school parties where alcohol is present. Illegal for minors, but legal for everyone else. Is it still cool? Does it have enough appeal to still be used? A lot? A little?
 
2006-03-20 03:28:18 AM  
mrexcess
I'm not thinking merely of "sin taxes". Isn't the income tax on earnings actually more unfair than so called "sin taxes"? I'm not thinking just of punishing people with a luxury tax, I'm thinking of a tax where people have the right to choose (or not choose) a luxury. If you want to choose it, fine. You still have the option of indulging in your luxury, whatever it is, or not. Not so with the income tax except, perhaps, in those provisions where the rich are taxed more heavily based on their bigger incomes. Maybe that itself is a form of luxury tax? At any rate, most of us don't have the "luxury", if you will, of deciding whether to make a living or not. But yet, we are taxed on that very income we are trying to use to make our living. And what is this money going for? You tell me. A lot of it is crap, right?

It just seems to me that income tax is far more enslaving than any luxury tax, and luxury tax doesn't punish us any more (if as much) as trying to get ahead with our incomes.
 
2006-03-20 03:28:39 AM  
WE MUST KEEP MARIJUANA ILLEGAL!!!

It's one of the legitamate ways we can lock up those upity negoros and mexicans. . .

/Sadly, that's one of the major reasons why it's illegal.
//Watch the movie "Grass" with Woody Harrison. It's pretty interesting.
 
2006-03-20 03:28:46 AM  
jesus, I feel sorry for all you saps who live outside of BC.

$100 for an 8th??? thats gotta be bottom of the line stuff too
 
2006-03-20 03:29:21 AM  
raptormh
smoke cyanide

Uhhhh, maybe I missed something here, but why in the hell would anyone smoke cyanide?

And who gives a fark if corporations get their money or not? My freedoms do not revolve around whether or not they allow someone else to get rich.
 
2006-03-20 03:30:22 AM  
mrexcess
I wasn't trolling. What a waste of time that would be. I just noticed how crazy you got when I said pot was bad over an hour ago, and you're still at it.
I don't know what kind of evidence you want. Do you expect me to go do research to appease you, when I know I am right?
If you are so sure that I am wrong, that pot has no negative long term effects, what threat am I to you?
 
2006-03-20 03:32:45 AM  
mrexcess


Sorry, few HTML skills.
http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/nicotineinhaler/a/cyanide.htm

Among the many carcinogens in cigarette smoke is hydrogen cyanide.

As for the corps getting their money... I don't care about them either, but at least this way they have an incentive to stop badgering our elected officials on this subject.
 
2006-03-20 03:33:20 AM  
esper256: WTF? Fark you for making up quotes and attributing them to me, and doing it that farking poorly.

tallbaldwillie
Isn't the income tax on earnings actually more unfair than so called "sin taxes"?

No. Income taxes aren't punative. Nobody seriously decides to keep working for Pizza Hut because they'd have to pay more taxes if they were a CEO.
 
2006-03-20 03:35:03 AM  
raptormh: OH NOES, TRACE AMOUNTS OF SCARY SOUNDING CHEMICALS!

If you only realized how many carcinogens you encountered on a daily basis. Ever breathe while driving on a freeway? Ever been to LA?
 
2006-03-20 03:36:41 AM  
mrexcess,

I should have made it more clear it was a fictional paraphrase. My apologies.
 
2006-03-20 03:37:44 AM  
DiamondSmasher
I don't know what kind of evidence you want.

Something in a scientific or medical journal, peer reviewed, that substantiates in any way shape or form your claim that marijuana use carries long term negative consequences for the brain.

Of course, you already knew exactly what I was asking for.

Do you expect me to go do research to appease you, when I know I am right?

Colbert?!? What are you doing up at this hour!
 
2006-03-20 03:37:45 AM  
mrexcess

raptormh: OH NOES, TRACE AMOUNTS OF SCARY SOUNDING CHEMICALS!

If you only realized how many carcinogens you encountered on a daily basis. Ever breathe while driving on a freeway? Ever been to LA?


Not sure why you're being so hostile. I was merely addressing an issue brought up in this debate, namely that tobacco companies would add a bunch of nasty shiat to joints like they do to cigarettes.

I'm sorry if I offended you personally.
 
2006-03-20 03:38:40 AM  
filters know no context

ok bed time. i gotta go start applying for homer simpson jobs tomorrow. well mebbe.
anybody know if aerotek is still looking for nuclear systems eng?
/lolz
 
2006-03-20 03:41:13 AM  
raptormh: Sorry, my bad, didn't mean to come off personal. But seriously, if you're afraid of trace amounts of hydrogen cyanide, you should take a look at what's in car exhaust sometime.
 
2006-03-20 03:42:45 AM  
raptormh: Now wait a minute. I agree with you about legalizing the buying of marijuana. But how is anybody going to be able to buy it unless we also legalize its production? How can you legally buy stuff that's illegally grown?
 
2006-03-20 03:42:49 AM  
you know, if you guys were really as smart as you -think- you are, you wouldn't drink alcohol.
you'd develop coping skills instead.
 
2006-03-20 03:45:42 AM  
tallbaldwillie: How can you legally buy stuff that's illegally grown?

That's a situation akin to the Netherlands. It's all a very complicationed mixture of it being decriminalized but not legalized. It's a bit shady. It just kind of brings various aspects of government into the shady workings (port inspectors, police, etc) and makes for what must be a lot of judgement calls.
 
2006-03-20 03:46:14 AM  
mrexcess

OK, no problem. I didn't, however, say that I was afraid of it. That's not the right term, exactly, though several of my family died of smoking related problems. I was just employing a rhetorical device to more colorfully illustrate my point; I was trying to kill two birds with one post (corporations want it to stay illegal, tobacco companies would adulterate the product).
 
2006-03-20 03:46:50 AM  
I don't know who Colbert is.
 
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