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(Al-Jazeera)   Arab-American psychologist Wafa Sultan nails the absolute truth of the conflict between the West and fundamentalist Islam   (memritv.org) divider line 70
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1952 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Feb 2006 at 9:26 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-02-28 02:49:49 AM
Republican propaganda! I blame GWB!
 
2006-02-28 02:56:43 AM
I seriously doubt this was aired on Al Jazeera.

But...if it was....it's a good sign. It doesn't matter that the reality is not as black and white as Wafa suggests. It only matters that radical Muslims be exposed to enough of our offensive claptrap that they eventually come to understand how the West views their garbage-feeding philosophy.
 
2006-02-28 03:23:12 AM
We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people

Not exactly true -- Check it out.
 
2006-02-28 05:01:01 AM
hero tag fit perfectly here. too bad the people that need to read this will prob just try to behead this guy
 
2006-02-28 08:07:02 AM
Wafa Sultan: Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don't throw them at me.

Awesome.
 
2006-02-28 08:21:12 AM
As long as we're quoting TFA...

The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them.

That's it in a nutshell. Respect has to be earned, not demanded.
 
2006-02-28 08:31:30 AM
KaponoFor3: Not exactly true -- Check it out.

I know you really like to blame the jews, but that's far-fetched even for you

Goldstein was a crazy farker, EVERYONE on the Israeli side condemned the acts, and Kahane's groups were already illegal and deemed terrorist organizations

From your link:

Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin telephoned Mr Arafat, describing the attack as a "loathsome, criminal act of murder" and pledging to take "every possible measure to bring about calm".

Mr Rabin said Israel would launch an investigation into the killings


Also, he wasn't protesting anything in particular, he just wanted to kill some ay-rabs.

Sorry, you lose at life.
 
2006-02-28 08:32:28 AM
szmike
Agreed. Very well put.
 
2006-02-28 08:33:37 AM
Mornin Tatsuma :)
 
2006-02-28 08:38:09 AM
smeegle: Mornin Tatsuma :)

Morning! Getting ready for this flamecast, where I'll have to defend both jews and arabs, shield myself from the blood and bits from the exploding heads of simpletons who don't think it's possible
 
2006-02-28 08:41:29 AM
The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them.

Well, they invented algebra. In fact, they invented loadsa neat stuff, when Christians were faffing about the place in the dark ages.

Not that I don't agree or anything.
 
2006-02-28 08:43:26 AM
While I thought the points were valid, I think limiting the discussing to fundementalist Islam, makes it seem as if they are the only ones stuck in the middle ages.

The fact is we have our own middle ages right here in the USA, people like Eric Rudolph, Timothy McVeigh, Robert J. Mathews, Louis Beam (who perfected the concept of leaderless resistance, or as we call them now, terrorist cells), and Richard Butler, among others.

Now none of the above people wore towels on their heads and their skin wasn't dark, but, they were stuck in the past with a deadly ideology that didn't allow for different points of view. Some were religious, like Rudolph, some were racially motivated like Mathews, Beam, and Butler, some had a twisted concept of patriotism, McVeigh, but all were deadly.

So before we get to puffed up about "them crazy feriners", we might do well to spend just a few minutes looking in the mirror.
 
2006-02-28 08:43:50 AM
Tatsuma
...to defend both jews and arabs

That's the problem, in my eyes it is possible but the binary thought process going on only serves to incite conflict and raise ignorance to new levels.
 
2006-02-28 08:51:27 AM
BladBoy
The concept you speak of is not entirely restricted to a race.
Right now though, the issues regarding extremism in Islam are forefront.
There are extremists in every nation, race and religion.
Having said that, I remeber 1967, I remember the conflicts escalating out of hand for the same old reasons.
I would like to see concensus and peace in the middle east some time in my life time. We are talking about two great cultures with the same Mother.
 
2006-02-28 08:55:35 AM
shroomfox: Well, they invented algebra

That's the point, they have to stop inventing painful ways to torture people and start making useful stuff, like nascar-type sports.

smeegle: That's the problem, in my eyes it is possible but the binary thought process going on only serves to incite conflict and raise ignorance to new levels.

Oh, but the process IS kinda binary.

It's asshats vs non-asshats and races or religion has got nothing to do with it, that's what a load of farkers seem to have a hard difficulty to grasp
 
2006-02-28 09:09:28 AM
Tatsuma

I know you really like to blame the jews, but that's far-fetched even for you


To be fair, all he said was "Not exactly true" in response to the statement: "We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people". Well, that statement *is* not exactly true. Not blaming jews for anything here, but - check it out.
 
2006-02-28 09:13:40 AM
binnster: To be fair, all he said was "Not exactly true" in response to the statement: "We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people".

he said not true, but he linked to a wrong error:

he linked to a crazy man who killed people, and he was not protesting

And your link is wrong as well. He quit the army in protest.

From the same article:

Israel media are reporting that the army said Mr Zaada had a "problematic background". He was believed to be a member of the outlawed extremist Kach party.

and

Mr Sharon condemned the attack.

"This terror incident is a deliberate attempt to harm the relations between the citizens of Israel," he said.

"Terror between civilians is the most dangerous thing for the future of Israel and its democratic stability," he added.

Settler groups have also denounced the violence.

"Murder is murder is murder, and there can be no other response but to denounce it completely and express revulsion," Bentsi Lieberman, the head of a settlers' council, told AP.

The bloodiest single attack on Palestinians by a Jewish extremist dates back to 1994 when US-born Jewish Baruch Goldstein shot dead 29 Muslims at a mosque in the West Bank city of Hebron.


So, so far, you've got two crazy racists who killed people simply out of hate, not to protest something.

AND the whole society turned around and said "that's just wrong!"

So it's definitely not the same thing.
 
2006-02-28 09:17:57 AM
I will, on the other hand, be fair and give you a (crazy) jew who was convicted of ATTEMPTED murder in protest (of a gay parade)

FTA:

"I came to murder on behalf of God. We can't have such abomination in the country," Schlissel told police during his subsequent interrogation.

...

The judges rejected the defense claim that the
assailant was suffering from temporary insanity at the time of the attack, and ruled that he was responsible for his actions.

"Even if the defendant had reached a point of mental agitation, at the moment he took the knife out of his pocket and got ready to use it he was aware of his actions and their consequences," the three judge panel wrote in their sentencing.


See, there you have someone that nearly killed gay people in PROTEST but the guy is batshiat, crazy insane but will still spend time in jail because of it

So, it's a very, very, very far cry from what the article is about

It's literally saying "Muslims are commiting a genocide in Sudan" and reply "But.. but.. the salem's witch trials!"
 
2006-02-28 09:23:53 AM
Hey you can't forget Berkowitz, he came to murder on behalf of Dog.
 
2006-02-28 09:27:20 AM
brap: Hey you can't forget Berkowitz, he came to murder on behalf of Dog.

See, that's the point, where does it stop?

There was this florida man who killed another in protest of not having any toilet paper

There was this other florida man who killed a woman in protest of her making too much noise

There was a sick guy who killed Rabin in protest of his policies

I just killed some kittens in protest of Penelope Cruz & Salma Hayek not releasing dirty videos..

I mean, bloody hell
 
2006-02-28 09:30:45 AM
From the article:
"Following are excerpts from an interview with Arab-American psychologist Wafa Sultan. The interview was aired on Al-Jazeera TV on February 21, 2006"

I'm curious on how the rest of the interview went, or getting a link to the entire interview.
 
2006-02-28 09:31:00 AM
Tatsuma: I just killed some kittens in protest of Penelope Cruz & Salma Hayek not releasing dirty videos..


If you ever find that video...email's in profile.
 
2006-02-28 09:32:47 AM
Tatsuma

And your link is wrong as well. He quit the army in protest.

So, so far, you've got two crazy racists who killed people simply out of hate, not to protest something.



Are you sure that in his crazy mind shooting people on a bus wasn't part of his protest?
 
2006-02-28 09:33:44 AM
binnster: Are you sure that in his crazy mind shooting people on a bus wasn't part of his protest?

Nowhere does it says that. He said he quit the army in protest. He was a kahanist!

That's like saying that KKK members were killing black people to protest about something.
 
2006-02-28 09:50:57 AM
I totaly nailed that question about houseboats!
 
2006-02-28 09:51:02 AM
FTA: It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality.

I thought he was talking about Intelligent Design for a minute there.
 
2006-02-28 09:52:46 AM
Oh, great. More pap from MEMRI.

What a load of crap. The conflict is, as always, over control of valuable natural resources. The West has installed or supports puppet regimes which will sell off the petroleum for cheap while suppressing dissent, and there are rebels who object to this rip-off and oppose the West and their puppet regimes. Fundamentalist Islam is a motivational tool for the rebels, not a cause of the conflict. You take petroleum out of the equation, and there would be no conflict at all. As to the Israel aspect, only Jews and sweaty-browed bible-thumpers could possibly give a shiat about it. It is a pathetic squabble over a postage stamp-sized patch of mainly worthless rocky, semi-arid terrain that otherwise is of no consequence whatsoever.

All of this blather about the Middle Ages and Arabs "deserving no respect" is beneath stupid. It is pap formulated and served to fools who like their brand of pap as opposed to other brands of pap and as such is complete drivel.

You will note there is a similar conflict in Nigeria, wherein a puppet government screws the locals out of their due in deferrence to the West, but there is no such baloney about the Delta people of Nigeria being "stuck in the Middle Ages" or "unworthy of respect." Who reads this garbage?
 
2006-02-28 09:53:43 AM
KaponoFor3 , that nut was one of the rare exceptions. That's the Jewish version of the "but...but...McVeigh" argument.
 
2006-02-28 09:56:01 AM
canyoneer

Oh, great. More pap from MEMRI.

OK, this is an honest question, have there been any instances where MEMRI mistranslated something or lied? I mean, I know they have an agenda, but so does Bill Moyer and I still watch him.
 
2006-02-28 09:57:51 AM
canyoneer: Oh, great. More pap from MEMRI.

Memri translates articles, this is from Al Jazeera

What a load of crap. The conflict is, as always, over control of valuable natural resources.

Did you even RTFA? The danish cartoons protest wasn't about valuable natural ressources. Fundamentalist Islam is not about ressources

The West has installed or supports puppet regimes which will sell off the petroleum for cheap while suppressing dissent, and there are rebels who object to this rip-off and oppose the West and their puppet regimes.

Let's blame the West! Us bad! Them Good! It's all the fault of western civilization...

Fundamentalist Islam is a motivational tool for the rebels, not a cause of the conflict. You take petroleum out of the equation, and there would be no conflict at all.

Of course! Because the conflicts only came around the beginning of the 20th century, there was no such thing as extremists before that

As to the Israel aspect, only Jews and sweaty-browed bible-thumpers could possibly give a shiat about it. It is a pathetic squabble over a postage stamp-sized patch of mainly worthless rocky, semi-arid terrain that otherwise is of no consequence whatsoever.

Yeah, jews, bible thumpers and people who are quite scared that another holocaust would happen if the arabs around had it their way

Who reads this garbage?

obviously you didn't, since nothing you talked about relates to the FA, for fark's sake.
 
2006-02-28 09:58:23 AM
From TFA:

Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: Are you a heretic?

Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: If you are a heretic, there is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran...


This is the mind set we're up against. Us versus them. Oh wait, where have I heard that before?
 
2006-02-28 10:11:50 AM
BladBoy: So before we get to puffed up about "them crazy feriners", we might do well to spend just a few minutes looking in the mirror.


I said it before and I will say it again, Extremists are bad no matter what flavor they are.
 
2006-02-28 10:17:04 AM
We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people.

Does the White Paper ring a bell? Irgun? Stern Gang? Early Haganah? These people murdered plenty of British soldiers, Arabs and even Jews at times. When angry and repressed even the Jewish people can find themselves listening to the extremist farktards promising an answer. This guy is full of shiat.
 
2006-02-28 10:23:27 AM
Listen, fellas: If you've followed this for the last 40 years or so, the issue has always been oil, with Israel as an irritant. What we've seen is an evolution of the opposition to the West from being socialist and pan-Arab in nature to being religious in nature. Was there a huge "fundamentalist islamic" movement in the 1960's? No, but there was an anti-Israel, anti-Western movement. It has evolved.

The coup against Mossadegh in, what, 1953(?), was about oil, and led directly to the Iranian Revolution (Shiite fundamentalism). The Israeli invasion of Lebanon empowered Hezbollah. The PLO was secular, and has been replaced by Hamas. The Baath was secular, and has been replaced by salafists, deobandis, and takfiris.

Don't you get it? The religious nature of the opposition is an evolution of a preexisting opposition. Religion works as a better motivator, that is all. It's working for them better than foreign organizational paradigms. They've reached into their past for a solution to their contemporary problem. Cause and effect.

And yes, Tatsuma, we are reaping what we've sown over there. From the CIA coup against Mossadegh to the empowerment of the mujahedeen in Afghanistan, to the support for Wahabbist dictatorships on the Peninsula, to our immensely stupid support of Israel, we are largely responsible for creating our own monsters, and it is all because of our insatiable thirst - our addiction to - petroleum. So fark off with your stupid quasi-mystical, junk-historical analyses and blather. It is incredible to me the contortions people will go through to avoid the obvious answer and plain truth: If you poke the hornet's nest long enough, the hornets will swarm. And that does not mean that the hornets are evil or backwards.

But, hey, if you're more comfortable with nonsense for some emotional, bigotted reason, have at it. That's what MEMRI does: Cherry-pick hogwash to prop up their prejudices.
 
2006-02-28 10:34:28 AM
shroomfox,

Arabs and Muslims didn't invent Algebra. They just got to name it.

Diophantus wrote the first treatise on variables far before Al Jabr - and it was based on the linear, quadratic, and indeterminate equations used (by Babylonians and Egyptians alike) before 2,800 BC. His written work in mathematics (Arithmetica) was a HUGE influence on Hypatia of Alexadria.

Likewise, they did not invent our proto-Indian numerals, Decimal systems, Long Division, or Zero - though Europe did (for the most part) adopt their usages from them.
 
2006-02-28 10:35:03 AM
Wafa Sultan: The Jews have came from the tragedy (of the Holocaust), and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror, with their work, not their crying and yelling. Humanity owes most of the discoveries and science of the 19th and 20th centuries to Jewish scientists. 15 million people, scattered throughout the world, united and won their rights through work and knowledge. We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people. The Muslims have turned three Buddha statues into rubble. We have not seen a single Buddhist burn down a Mosque, kill a Muslim, or burn down an embassy. Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people, and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them.

Wow. I can respect that. It probably is not entirely true, but what he is saying speaks volumes. Not entirely true cause I imagine you can find Jews who have torched churches, etc., but he is talking about scale. You dont see entire communities doing such things.
 
2006-02-28 10:36:47 AM
Tatsuma: The West has installed or supports puppet regimes which will sell off the petroleum for cheap while suppressing dissent, and there are rebels who object to this rip-off and oppose the West and their puppet regimes.

Let's blame the West! Us bad! Them Good! It's all the fault of western civilization...


Let me put things into perspective for you. What would you do if Tony Blair declared Saddam Hussein your President? I know what I would do. It sounds a lot like terrorism.
 
2006-02-28 10:38:29 AM
At least someone derives inspiration from the likes of Ann Coulter . This women isn't helping bridging the divide and some of her 'expert' statements can easily be refuted as her own personal interpretation and not the views shared by a majority of conservative-practising Muslims who do not rally in streets, who make use of every minute of their lives devoted to community service, who do not approve suicide bombings, who do not cause conflict with other peoples beliefs.

/expert opinion
 
2006-02-28 10:39:09 AM
Pretty damn good read, too bad they will dismiss the idea as a heritic ideologist instead of taking some penny into it.
 
2006-02-28 10:41:34 AM
Tatsuma

Nowhere does it says that.


In that article, no, but it does say it here:
The shooting appeared to be in protest of the Israeli government's disengagement plan based on the orange ribbon attached to his pocket. (Orange is the color of anti-disengagement activists).
 
2006-02-28 10:42:05 AM
the_geek: Let me put things into perspective for you. What would you do if Tony Blair declared Saddam Hussein your President? I know what I would do. It sounds a lot like terrorism.

I'm not denying we did bad things, I'm denying we're the cause of all evils
 
2006-02-28 10:43:04 AM
KlumTheFark: At least someone derives inspiration from the likes of Ann Coulter . This women isn't helping bridging the divide and some of her 'expert' statements can easily be refuted as her own personal interpretation and not the views shared by a majority of conservative-practising Muslims who do not rally in streets, who make use of every minute of their lives devoted to community service, who do not approve suicide bombings, who do not cause conflict with other peoples beliefs.

I'm beginning to think it's wasteful breath. Anything that doesn't declare them to be middle-ages style barbarians with a taste for the blood of American women and children is an obvious and outright blasphime to the APM and will not even be considered as viable thought.

/American Propaganda Machine
 
2006-02-28 10:44:26 AM
KaponoFor3: We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people

Not exactly true -- Check it out.


Also, weren't there Zionists blowing up buildings in the early 20th Century?
Still, the essence of his point remains - murderous protests by Jews are pretty rare.
 
2006-02-28 10:44:47 AM
binnster:

1) 2006-02-28 09:27:20 AM
2) He was sick and disturbed, previous to this incident.

That's not protesting, that's being a mad-man
 
2006-02-28 10:45:54 AM
Rev. Skarekroe: Also, weren't there Zionists blowing up buildings in the early 20th Century?

King David Hotel? It was supposed to go ETA style (ie, we call, you get it, it goes boom) but the brits didn't take the calls seriously and didn't evacuate, causing a lot of poor deaths. I guess cricket was on

Still, the essence of his point remains - murderous protests by Jews are pretty rare.

pretty, pretty, pretty rare
 
2006-02-28 10:48:19 AM
canyoneer: As to the Israel aspect, only Jews and sweaty-browed bible-thumpers could possibly give a shiat about it. It is a pathetic squabble over a postage stamp-sized patch of mainly worthless rocky, semi-arid terrain that otherwise is of no consequence whatsoever.

Yeah, those Palestinians want the Jews out of Jerusalem because of all the oil that's there.
 
2006-02-28 10:50:11 AM
Tatsuma


binnster:

1) 2006-02-28 09:27:20 AM
2) He was sick and disturbed, previous to this incident.

That's not protesting, that's being a mad-man



Ug. If you ask me, anyone prepared to shoot a bunch of innocent people like that is clearly a madman.

Is it fair to say that this guy's protest doesn't count because he was a madman, but any protest killings carried out by muslim nutters count because they are clearly rational human beings?
 
2006-02-28 10:53:25 AM
binnster: Is it fair to say that this guy's protest doesn't count because he was a madman, but any protest killings carried out by muslim nutters count because they are clearly rational human beings?

Did I say that anywhere?
 
2006-02-28 10:57:16 AM
WHERE'S MY OIL, DAMMIT!
 
2006-02-28 10:58:44 AM
Rev. Skarekroe: "Yeah, those Palestinians want the Jews out of Jerusalem because of all the oil that's there."

No, they want them out for the same reason the Sioux and the Cheyenne and the Navajo and the Comanche wanted the white settlers out: They don't like a lot of foreigners coming in and taking over their land. In case you hadn't noticed, people don't like pushy foreigners invading their patch. It has been happening for thousands of years all over the world. Nothing special in it.
 
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