heavyw8t

In answer to "what kind of soldier gets himself captured" the answer in this case is, in about 80-90% of the cases, that these people are not soldiers, and were not our enemy. They sure as fark are now.

Heavy said: The only thing they did wrong was not beat them long enough. Better still, send them here and let the survivors of the 9-11 WAR CRIME victims take care of them.

Great idea if Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, but hey, keep trying.

Chummer45: "It doesn't affect the way I run my life" when one of those crazy bastards that eventually gets out of abu Ghraib flies a plane into another American building

On Sept. 12th 2001 I woke up got dressed, kissed my family good by and went to work (didn't have a dog then).

I'm not completely uninformed on the war in Iraq and terrorism, but I have to live my life. Maybe I am the quittessential "Stupid lazy American" but I don't see any reason to get all worked up and worry about something that I can't change. What have any of you done to improve the way the prisoners are treated? biatching about it won't change anything. It is a situation that is out of my hands.

All of ya'll, both sides of the argument, are taking this shiat way too seriously.

Dr.Tune: alhazred
Some have forgotten that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and has never attacked us in any way.

Not a necessary condition for war

See Germany, 1941

True its not a necessary condition for war, but the supporters of the war seem to constantly use 9/11 as a justification even though we never went after those resposible for the 9/11 attacks(Saudi Arabia).

Dr.Tune: See Germany, 1941


Germany's established ally (part of that whole "Axis" thing), Japan attacked us. That's what got us into that war.

Unless you're using Germany's example to justify our actions, then I see what you mean, but still think it's wrong.

Move along, nothing to see here. These are just funny frat pranks.

heavyw8t

So then 9/11 was okay in your opinion. I get it, since we were the enemy E V E R Y B O D Y in this country became open season. Those that died in the towers deserved it, right? I mean they were Osama's enemies.

holy $#@!ing %$#$, some of you are people are $%%$-up crazy.

The Icelander
The question with torture is, as with the death penalty, how many innocent lives are you willing to ruin in order to save an innocent life?... Humans are imperfect... So if we torture people who are suspected of terrorism, we will eventually torture an innocent person.

By that same logic, simply sending people to jail is immoral. Humans are imperfect. So if we send people to jail for their crimes, we will eventually imprison an innocent person (which I'm sure we've done thousands of times), which can REALLY ruin their life.

I'm NOT condoning torture here, just saying that torture (unlike jail and maybe the death penalty) should be outlawed, not because it's wrong when wielded against the innocent but because it's wrong even when wielded against the guilty.

Brason,

I would be very startled by your display here, but I'm starting to respect you because at least you're honest. only thing worse than an ignorant asshole, stupid lazy american is one who doesn't admit it. sure you have a sadly defeatist attitude, no ambition to change the world, and apparently little respect for the generations who did biatch about it and did change things, letting you go to work and kiss your wife in relative peace, but at least you're honest.

heavyw8t



"They drew first blood, not me!"

You know, here's the problem. I can't keep up with all the flame wars today! There are way too many.. WTF! Give this simple man a break.. sheeeesh

Dr.Tune: Also, I did not see the alternative theory to how we should fight this war we did not start. Does anyone REALLY want to know what US soldiers did to their enemies in WW1 and WW2? Of course not.

We are talking about our invasion of Iraq, right? The first time we pre-emptively invaded another country? Because they might do something, at some point, to us? I'm pretty sure we started it. Now I apologise if you are talking about Afghanistan, but most of the prisoners in Abu Ghraib are Iraqi.

Well, you certainly don't have a problem with brain death.

Why is that? See what happens after death (if anything). Nothing wrong with it. We'll all die, why not think that in a way it will be cool?

YAWN, non-story!! Anyone know what the latest on Tom and Katie is???

2006-02-15 01:22:13 PM gasconading_sesquipedalian


there's a remarkably diversity of mental evolution shown in this thread. I never knew the gap was so wide.

Your post would be more convincing without the grammatical error.

heavyw8t

From an American citizen to one who has protected America and Americans, thank you.

Most of these farkers don't think there's really a war.

Brason: And the problem with these pictures are...

I don't get the uproar. We should be able to do whatever we need to do to get information. I don't really care about the prisoners well being. Punch them, kick them, shiat on them, release the hounds on them, whatever you need to do. Hell go old school Saddam on them and throw them off a building. If one bit of information from one of those jackasses helps our country then it is worth it.


Does that mean I can make a pre-emptive strike against liberate invade the U.S. and 'free Americans from the brutal dictatorship which is the Bush Administration'?

Because, you know, the war in Iraq was all about imminent thread from WMDs human rights and freeing the Iraqi people from Saddam Hussein's brutal dictatorship *snicker*.

If the U.S. employs the same abuses of power as Saddam Hussein, what possible moral high ground or claim of moral superiority can you have?

Not even counting the problematic possibility that some of these prisoners are innocent (as many of the ones who were detained previously were, and therefore were finally released).

You've been watching too much '24'.

no more of an enemy than Kansas

i say commence the torture! kansas is closer anyway, but then again, they won't get all of those frequent flier miles

heavyw8t

Nobody is saying that war isn't ugly. But when people who don't know anything about it start telling decorated veterans that we are wrong for wanting to see the enemy defeated and demoralized, that is out of whack.

You deserve respect for serving your country, and I'm thankful for your service. But that doesn't mean your opinion is correct. I'm not arguing with your aims about this war, I'm arguing with your methods. Get off your cross and quit acting like you're being spitting on you.

I'm sorry, but appealing to authority when you can't defend your own argument is asinine. If war is hell, then make some arguments as to why it is. Otherwise you're just tooting your own horn.

in another stellar display of unrealistic expectations combined with lack of foresight this administration did not see this coming.

they should have released everything they had when the first evidence of this came out. spreading out the damage is plain stupid and the idea that these photos could be hidden is wrong.

to think that these photos wouldn't find their way into the public eye on their own is unrealistic, and to miss the obvious fact that they when they do come out the timing might be more inconvenient than you'd hope.

this administration makes tragically short sighted decisions at just about every turn. good god they suck.

Information gained from the use of torture is not information at all. People who are being tortured will say *anything* to make it stop -- anything at all. You would too. I thought that after the Inquisition, this point had been taken by the human race. Torture serves no purpose except to help the torturers get their sadistic rocks off.

CodeRedEd

Maybe you're too young to remember - Iraq invaded Kuwait, was beaten and surrendered, but never met the terms of the surrender. Until we actually did it, the UN and europe and darn near everybody was in favor of enforcing the outstanding surrender terms.

heavyw8t: You don't pick and choose during war. Everybody in the opposing country is the enemy. EVERYBODY. One of those 8 year old kids is 20 years away from being the next Bin Laden. What needs to be done is the country needs to be vaporized so the generations of teaching hatred against the US goes away in the cloud.

Remember, they attacked the US on our ground. That is tugging on Superman's cape, pissing into the wind and pulling the mask off the Lone Ranger. You beat violence with violence, not diplomacy. They committed an act of war and we now need to finish it.

There's the problem. You're confusing Iraq with Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. They are different countries. Again the question was "what did the Iraqi civilians have to do with 9/11?"

Dr.Tune: Some have forgotten that we did not start this war!


One of us must've slept through March 2003. As I recall us invading Iraq and not the other way round, I'm assuming it's you who needs to check your alarm clock.

NutznGum,

Your post would be more convincing without the grammatical error.

your write - gramatical corectness are obviusly as criticaly importint as forin polisy and global geopolitical

It boils down to this. There is Unifide Code of Military Justice. It dictates the conduct of every American in uniform. If you stand before the man and tell him that you have no intention of following the UCMJ, I see courts martial in your future. Therefore, the expectation is that everyone in uniform follows the Code. There are no provisions in the UCMJ for tossing it aside in wartime. In fact, wartime is when it is needed most. There is nothing in the Code about taking personal responsibility or ownership about what is best for the nation, nor is the Code open for individual interpretation. If the Code is wrong, then change the Code.

Why do you think that there are so many intelligence "contractors" running loose over there? Because they can operate outside the UCMJ, and as importantly, they are outside the US and not bound by US law. Same goes for Gitmo.

We as a nation have a choice to make. We are either a nation of laws or we are not. If we are, we have to start abiding by them or changing them, but we can't make it up as we go along. If we decide that we are not a nation of laws, then we need to drop the b/s facade and be willing to be seen for what we are, be proud of who we are, and have the stones to admit it.

heavyw8t
I was one of "those" who had a 12 year old aim a rifle at me. During war, EVERYBODY in the opposing country is the enemy.

E-V-E-R-Y-B-O-D-Y.

I stood in a room facing a VC with a bayonet.

Too bad they didn't have the chance to use them.

binnster

Do you remember that Iraq invaded Kuwait and never met the surrender terms? And that the UN fully authorized the US to use force to gain Iraq's compliance?

006-02-15 01:43:41 PM gasconading_sesquipedalian


NutznGum,

Your post would be more convincing without the grammatical error.

your write - gramatical corectness are obviusly as criticaly importint as forin polisy and global geopolitical

Well played, sir. (or ma'am?)

/not usualy a grammar/spelling nazi, just a little grumpy today

This thread is worthless without pics.

/sorry

Dr.Tune: Most of these farkers don't think there's really a war.

At what point has that ever been debated? As far as the war in Afghanistan (you know, the sidenote), I feel it is absolutely justified. Going after those who attacked us and who posed a threat to us in the future. I, personally, do not believe this (in Iraq) is a justified war. I do not believe that this war has protected us in any way whatsoever, and I believe that more U.S. citizens have died as a result of this war than if it had never happened.

I have been shown no evidence up to this point as to why we should be there.

Torture? There are other areas of the world with more of a pressing need for help against toturing regimes and dictators.
WMD's? They said they didn't have any, so we sent in inspectors. The inspectors said they didn't have any so we invaded. They didn't have any.
Liberation? That's a recent "excuse" (NOT the reason we went in initially), and the arguments against that are too numerous to name.
Enforcement of surrender terms? Wasn't that the WMD's? I admit, I'm not completely up on what those terms were, I just remember that Iraq was a non-threat, and the only thing I remember hearing about as far as not meeting the surrender terms was destroying the WMD's.

You want alternatives on how to save American lives? Don't send them to die for no good reason. That would be a first step.

/begin song
...And I'm proud to be an american.....
/end song

gasconading_sesquipedalian: but at least you're honest.

Thank you. My grandfather always told me to be brutally honest. "People may not like you, but they'll always know where you're coming from."

you have a sadly defeatist attitude

true

no ambition to change the world

true

and apparently little respect for the generations who did biatch about it and did change things

Not true. I applaud and respect those with the conviction and drive to shut-up and change things instead of just biatching about it. It's the endless spewing of blame and accusations that makes me sick. Resolution, not blame is what I want to see.

Karma Chameleon: Too bad they didn't have the chance to use them.

I'm sure heavyw8t will reply to that statement, but seriously WTF?
Your respect for our troops amazes me. What have you done to protect our freedoms and country?

Everytime I hear of a Bomb killing Americians over there, someone taken hostage, or killed on tv...I think of all these pictures, and it reaffirms I don't give a fark about Terrorist, kill them all.

Brason, et.al.

To say I don't understand you is a vast, epic understatement, so I will not pursue a discussion of your comments.

I will say however that I'm still waiting for the 'wingers running this fiasco to stop thumping the bible and to crack it open for a change. Maybe they'll stumble across this:

(God speaking):

6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen for you:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?

7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter
when you see the naked, to clothe him,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

--Isaiah 58:6-7

/Not holding my breath
//Lord save me from your followers

1. People who endorse the use of torture are scum.
2. People who use torture are less than scum.
3. Torture is always wrong and never works.
4. Most of the people at Guantanamo Bay and other illegal detention centers were never terrorists of any kind before their detention. However, after spending four years imprisoned without representation and then released with no explanation or apology, I wouldn't be surprised if they sign up with a resistance group when they get home.

/Osama bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11

Brason

I don't get the uproar. We should be able to do whatever we need to do to get information. I don't really care about the prisoners well being. Punch them, kick them, shiat on them, release the hounds on them, whatever you need to do. Hell go old school Saddam on them and throw them off a building. If one bit of information from one of those jackasses helps our country then it is worth it.

The problem is, these people are detainees. Many had not been shown to be, in any way, connected to a terrorist network. These are people who maybe committed an infraction or had a similar name to a known terrorist.

Have you ever gotten pulled over for speeding? How would you like to wind up in a prison being beaten, slashed, and set on by attack dogs, because you were speeding? What if you failed to stop at a stop sign because you didn't see it?

You may be apathetic on this. Fine. Some of us, like myself, would like to know what our government is doing in our name. It's just rather unfortunate that there isn't some way that only Americans could see what their country was doing, without the rest of the world seeing it as well.

Brason: The truth of the matter is that I just don't give a rats ass. I got up this morning, walked my dog, got ready for work, kissed my wife and son good-by and came to work. And if we torture some innocent Iraqie cab driver or not I'm going to do the same damn thing tomorrow, and the next day and the next. Well not Saturday. I mean I'll walk the dog on Saturday, but I'm not coming into work.

Anyway, show the pictures, shred the pictures, it doesn't matter to me. Now if that makes me an ignorant asshole, then so be it.


It's the ignorance of the common American about human rights abuses abroad perpetrated by the U.S. military/CIA which has provoked many groups (not just Islamic fundamentalist terrorists) to take up arms against the U.S.A.

While I don't condone attacks against civilian targets such as 9/11, I wasn't terribly surprised that it happened because it's probably one of the easiest methods for terrorists to bring their grievances to the attention of the common ignorant American who cares only to drive his SUV around and not give a fark what his government is doing in other countries on his supposed behalf.

Your ignorance and apathy allows the U.S. government to continue to run secret camps which detain people (including U.S. citizens) without due process or habeas corpus, allow torture to run rampant in contravention of the Geneva Convention, and basically make a mockery of the claim that the United States of America is a bastion of freedom and justice.

If you are a true patriot, a real American, you have to be an active citizen, a participant in democracy. If your government, military or any one of its branches is secretly taking your tax dollars and using it to fund illegal actions in other countries, you should be standing up and speaking out against it, protesting.

Not only is it a waste of tax dollars, but it feeds violent conflict and anti-American propaganda in other nations, which can only help the terrorists.

You'll spend $50 on a TF membership, and you have time enough to post on a political thread, but you don't have the time to stand up for your country and demand that it live up to the ideals it claims to uphold?

Lazy, ignorant, apathetic Americans like you give true American patriots a bad name.

Other news sites say that some of the pictures are of Iraqi female prostitutes. Which Farker can find the link to those pics first?

whidbey: We were definitely snookered. It's obvious the real reason is to set up shop in the "hornets' nest", if you will and keep an eye on the natural resources.

The "war" goes against democracy, sure, but Iraq's been eyeballed miltarily/strategically for years...

Very true. Your "hornets' nest" comparison is perfect as a way to salvage this for the long term, at least strategically. Politically and morally, I'm afraid that we've made a mess of things, but if we can clean that aspect up, then having a base in (or at least access to) Iraq will do wonders as this whole middle-east situation continues to get worse. I seriously doubt that was ever the administration's original intentions, but it could be a possible silver lining.

Krantzstone: You've been watching too much '24'.

Never seen an episode of it. I prefere comedies. I get enough terrorism and political BS on TV and in TotalFark flamewars.

Where the hypicrosy will occur is the news outlets that were afraid to run a cartoon of mohammend with a bomb for a turbin will all run these pictures that are how old now?

alhazred

There was a long, long list of surrender terms. Back in 1990 when Hussein first rolled into Kuwait, the whole world began to look at Hussein as another Hitler or something. Iraq had the 3rd largest military in the world, Hussein rose to power in a bloody coup that overthrew an otherwise happy republic.

Hussein told the US he wasn't going to stop at Kuwait...

So we (very large coalition) beat him back and made him sign an extensive treaty or we would level his country. HE signed the treaty but never adhered to it. And after 12 years, if he was going to comply, he would have complied. The US kept its word to Kuwait and its neighbors that Hussein wouldn't be a threat. Most of the rest of world knew the US would do the job no matter what.

The difference between going back into Iraq or not, is whether the US would remain credible. Do we mean what we say or not?

/anxious for US troops to come home AFTER the job is done