Well then, I would think Israel wouldn't fire on a large supporter, but who knows....

oh yeah it was the USS Liberty. It was not an accident. The survivors of USS Liberty filed a "War Crime Report" against Israel.

http://www.ussliberty.org check it out

L.Darte: Short answer: yes they did.

No, they didn't.

But the evidence was refused by the US who continued to claim that they had "evidence" to the contrary that the WMDs still existed. Never mind the fact that the weapons inspectors were unable to verify any of the US claims.

That wasn't the inspectors' job - their job was to review the demonstration given them by the Iraqis, which was never satisfactorily done. That being said, it wasn't our farking problem - we handed that bullshiat off to the UN 15 years ago. So, no, I'm not in favor of the Iraq war, but the assertion that they abided by the terms of the ceasefire is fallacious.

Sloth_DC:

I don't think your graph doesn't show what you wanted to show.

It seems to be saying that less than 30% of the population was Jewish in Palestine, which if the non-Jews were 1.2 million, which is hard to tell from that chart, the Jews would be at most 360,000.

ZipBeep: It seems to be saying that less than 30% of the population was Jewish in Palestine, which if the non-Jews were 1.2 million, which is hard to tell from that chart, the Jews would be at most 360,000.

474,102
The Arab population was 1,111,398.

I rounded both off, giving the 500,000, 1M figures.

Lucky13
BeowulfSmith: wtf are you talking about? That place has been holy to Muslims, Christians, Jews ever since the beginning of their respective religion and people lived there and worshipped there in harmony.

Lived and worshipped there in harmony? Dude, where the hell do you get this stuff? Since the beginning of the first millenium of the Commen Era, there has been virtually nothing but religious strife in the region, with the Jews being replaced by the Christians, who were replaced by the Muslims (Arabs) who were conquered by more Muslims (Turks), who were pushed out again by Christians (Crusaders) and then replaced by the Muslims again (the Turks), who levied taxes against people of other faiths for not being Muslim (dhimmitude, look it up). This lasted about as long as the Ottoman empire did, at which point the Arab Muslim populations starting agitating agianst the Jewish population , who started to push back, with more and more people of both the Muslim and Jewish faiths moving into the region, leading up the the pull out of the British and the Arab League launching a war of annihilation against the Jews (their own words).

Sure sounds peaceful to me.

Sloth_DC: If Israel had lost those wars, the Jews would have been exterminated. Unlike, say, the Arab Israeli seperatists, who have quadrupled in population.


Then why wasn't Syria destroyed or Egypt destroyed, or any of the other countries Israel defeated in those wars. Somehow, Israel is more "noble" than those damn Arabs? Wow. Maybe I should start calling you guys Nazis.

ZipBeep: Then why wasn't Syria destroyed or Egypt destroyed, or any of the other countries Israel defeated in those wars.

Because Israel's goal in those wars was survival. The Arab goal in those wars was eradication of Israel and elimination of the Jews. That's why the local Arabs have been killing Jews in the region since before Israel existed.

Somehow, Israel is more "noble" than those damn Arabs? Wow. Maybe I should start calling you guys Nazis.

Maybe you should learn some farking history.

Lucky13: oh yeah it was the USS Liberty. It was not an accident.

In today's lesson we learn not to lie to your ally about the location of your naval assets.

BeowulfSmith: do you know what the JIZYA (the tax non Muslims paid) is?

Do you know what Muslims had to pay the ZAKAT that the non Muslims did not pay AND non Muslims received protection from the Muslims?

You probably did but you are too ignorant.

i'm sure that this time around, they'll be fully forthcoming about their nukes.

Sloth_DC: 474,102
The Arab population was 1,111,398.

I rounded both off, giving the 500,000, 1M figures.


Why don't you just link? Because so far, you have "rounded off" to your advantage and then showed a chart that didn't show what you wanted and now you are posting numbers? I think I have to see a link.

/In any case it's a real minority in Palestine ALONE, let alone the whole Middle East. It's like saying Mexicans should run the whole Southwest and I'm guessing you wouldn't like that.

ZipBeep: Why don't you just link?

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/populationpalestine.html

Because so far, you have "rounded off" to your advantage and then showed a chart that didn't show what you wanted and now you are posting numbers? I think I have to see a link.

I rounded off the standard way, and I can't help it if you can't read a chart.

/In any case it's a real minority in Palestine ALONE

Now, or in 1941?

the_gospel_of_thomas: And the defeatists, our own Fifth column inside the Unites States


You realize that you sound exactly like a Communist propagandist when you talk about some "5th Column"? God forbid we ever allow dissent that is counter to the official version.

As for you, MightyOrange, you lost all respect once you stooped to calling ZipBeep a Nazi for his views wary of Israel. It doesn't take a fascist to question the role of Israel or its role in the region. It is a tangled web through which all sides have a lot to answer for, but your knee-jerk assumptions lower the debate to cheap pantomime.

Oh, and while we're on the subject, since the Israeli Arab separatists keep trying to claim Jerusalem...

Lucky13
BeowulfSmith: do you know what the JIZYA (the tax non Muslims paid) is?

Do you know what Muslims had to pay the ZAKAT that the non Muslims did not pay AND non Muslims received protection from the Muslims?

You probably did but you are too ignorant.

First of all, why should I care what taxes Muslims made other Muslims pay? What does that have to do with your happy-fun misconception of what the situation was in the region under Muslim rule?

Let's see:

JIZYA

The poll-tax or rather "protection money" that has to be paid by the DHIMMIS under Islamic rule:

Fight those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and his messenger have forbidden - such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the book - until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled (humiliated). Surah al-Baqara 9:29

Wow, Muslims made non-Muslims pay protection money for allowing the non-Muslims to live among them, otherwise they would hurt them!!! Gee, what a bunch of nice guys they were.

I never knew extortion under threat of violence was considered that same as peaceful tolerance and acceptance.

Look, Lucky13, you seem to be dangerously ignorant of your own history (since you claimed to be a Muslim in another thread). Would you like to forced to pay a tax by the people you live among, so they won't attack you? Is that what you would really like?

SLOTH DC
It's inaccurate to say that "The Arab goal in those wars was eradication of Israel and elimination of the Jews. That's why the local Arabs have been killing Jews in the region since before Israel existed."

In the 1973 war, for instance which we can all agree Egypt was the aggressor, the Egyptian forces did not advance past the range of SAM protection in the strip of the Suez canal.

There are constant speeches by the likes of Nasser and Arafat that they want Israel wiped off the map. But are these threats directed at Israel or are they used to gain support from the most reactionary elements of their own countries

Now enough of the Arabs if we are going to discuss the Iranian position towards Israel, let's start at our own History the Book of Ezra 1:1-8

Sloth_DC: ZipBeep: How do you figure it's Nazi to question whether the whole world would be better off without Israel in the Middle East?

Trying to quell discussion by calling me a Nazi won't work. You are going to have to defend yourself better than that.

You're asking if the world wouldn't be a better place if we let 6 million Jews be killed by their neighbors. Is any further comment really necessary?


And no, with this comment, I was saying we would have been better off if Israel had NEVER BEEN CREATED.

If Israel had been created in Arizona, the whole world would have been better off.

Short live the Ignoble Soldier.

L.Darte: Short answer: yes they did.

No, they didn't.

Sorry, but they did. The Iraqis presented thousands of pages of documents describing the destruction of their WMDs. The US refused to believe any of it. (It's not even clear if the US even looked at any of it.)

That wasn't the inspectors' job - their job was to review the demonstration given them by the Iraqis, which was never satisfactorily done. That being said, it wasn't our farking problem - we handed that bullshiat off to the UN 15 years ago. So, no, I'm not in favor of the Iraq war, but the assertion that they abided by the terms of the ceasefire is fallacious.

The weapons inspector's job was to either confirm or deny the existance of WMDs remaining in Iraq and to verify complaince with the cease fire agreement. The weapons inspectors noted that Saddam was not happy with the inspections, but was in compliance. The US tried to supply numerous 'hot tips' to the inspectors in an effort to find something... anything that would allow them to attack. It didn't work. The US attacked anyway.

The deal was that if the UN decided that Iraq had complied with the terms of the UN cease fire and subsequently lifted the sanctions, then the US would lose it's leverage against Saddam and their excuse to invade. Solution? Throw out the inspectors (illegal in it's own right), unilaterally declare the cease fire to be in violation (which the US had no authority to do), invade and install a puppet government.

ZipBeep: And no, with this comment, I was saying we would have been better off if Israel had NEVER BEEN CREATED.

If Israel had been created in Arizona, the whole world would have been better off.

That's nice, but the Zionists didn't buy land in Arizona, they bought it in Palestine.

yes i am a Muslim.
I do pay taxes which goes to the military and the police , etc. which ensures my safety.

Lucky13: yes i am a Muslim.
I do pay taxes which goes to the military and the police , etc. which ensures my safety.

Do you pay a special tax for being a Muslim?

Alright, it's dinner time (well for me at any rate) and I'm hungry.

You guys have fun and every now and again try throwing in a comment about Iran and the Security Council.

/I know I'm as guilty as the rest on thread jacking
//but I started off talking about Iran
///Really, I did

yes I do give to charity (Zakat)

Btw, Lucky, take my advice don't try to equate paying taxes in America to paying special taxes to be allowed to live among Muslims (or be hurt by said Muslims).

It doesn't make you look too good.

Sloth_DC: I rounded off the standard way, and I can't help it if you can't read a chart.

Rounded off to YOUR ADVANTAGE, of course. And a real crappy chart when all you had to do is post the numbers.

/In any case it's a real minority in Palestine ALONE

Now, or in 1941?

Obviously, in 1941. Try to follow along.

Sloth_DC: Oh, and while we're on the subject, since the Israeli Arab separatists keep trying to claim Jerusalem...


While I applaud you for using procon (which may or may not be as true a source as you can get on these things) the graph by itself means nothing. I believe there is a famous FSM Pirate graph that pretty much illustrates that point.

BeowulfSmith: You guys have fun and every now and again try throwing in a comment about Iran and the Security Council.


HEY! This thread isn't about Iran and the Security Council, is it? LOL!

i live in a SECULAR country incase you did not know. the jizya also ensured protection from outsiders as well as you might know during the time of the Qu'ran it was a violent world.

anyways if you dont like the rule, fark off

I've been lurking at this post for quite awhile now and it seems there are a bunch of Hillel types posting their talking points.

Wow, some justification there Lucky, or more acurately rationalization.

Like defending paying protection money to the mob to ensure another mob doesn't trash your place. But of course that's EXACTLY the same as paying for a police force.

Lucky13: yes I do give to charity (Zakat)

Today we're going to learn the difference between tax and charity.

HA HA HA!!!

/never going to happen

ZipBeep: Obviously, in 1941. Try to follow along.

Sure, never said they weren't a minority. Was just pointing out that they were a significant part of the population, and that the Arab population was largely immigrant as well.

sloth_dc: the Zakat = money you give to charity but it is mandatory. tax is mandatory.

Sloth_DC: That's nice, but the Zionists didn't buy land in Arizona, they bought it in Palestine.

Only because the British decided that the Middle East would be a good place for the Jews in the Diaspora to settle.

It would have been better if they would have settled in Arizona, don't you agree?

I found this while looking up some census figs:

ARAB JEWS

The official ideology of Israel, Zionism, has always portrayed itself as a liberation movement for all Jews. But although Zionism claims to offer a home for all Jews, that home has never been offered equally.

The question of Arab Jews strikes at the heart of Zionist contradiction - an attempt to build an anti-Arab, exclusively Jewish state on Arab lands.

From the early days of the Zionist project, large numbers of Jews from neighbouring Arab countries were brought to Palestine. Ostensible they were 'returning home', but in reality they came as cheap labour for their European counterparts Ashkenazi Jews

These Arab Jews were given the name Mizrahim (the eastern ones).

It was from a blog and the guy didn't keep his link.

From: Israeli Forum

Lucky13: the Zakat = money you give to charity but it is mandatory.

The only things in the world that are mandatory are the things that, if you don't do them, someone will show up at your house with a gun. You _choose_ to give to charity as part of your faith. It may be mandatory _within that faith_, but that doesn't make it mandatory, or a tax.

Why should I or anyone (for that matter) care about Nuclear weapons? What is the worst that could happen? Global nuclear war? The end of the human species..... SO FARKING WHAT!!

In the greater scheme of things, (in this vast, vast, universe) human extinction is probably a good idea.

ZipBeep: Only because the British decided that the Middle East would be a good place for the Jews in the Diaspora to settle.

Circular - the British only made that decision because that's where the Zionists were settling.

It would have been better if they would have settled in Arizona, don't you agree?

Probably, assuming the Mormons didn't invade. :)

Sloth_DC: Probably, assuming the Mormons didn't invade


That's comedy, folks.

The Zionist Jews of Israel are EVIL!!! or is it... The terrorist Muslims of Palestine are EVIL!!! I can never remember... Darn my weak and feeble mind! What if we removed everyone, and made Israel a haven for Taoists? Just a thought.

Sloth_DC: Circular - the British only made that decision because that's where the Zionists were settling.


Well, maybe, but the British certainly told the Jews in the Diaspora where they COULDN'T settle, before deciding to create Israel.

If an agreement could have been made for Arizona, the Jews would have moved there.

/Not that there wouldn't have been a Jewish presence in Israel, there is a Jewish presence EVERYWHERE, including odd places like China and Tibet. I am talking about a particular Jewish state.

Hoohill: made Israel a haven for Taoists? J


No one's a Taoist. Not even Taoists.

One word: RNEP, the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator [animation]. Penetration by Explosive Force. Do you really think the US has stopped research into these?

Tatsuma: "Let's nuke Isreal", "Let's get Israel to get rid of their weapons"

man, you're on a roll today

/where's the biatchslap button?


Did he post something in another thread? Because he only has one post in this thread, the first one.

"No one's a Taoist. Not even Taoists."--swahnhennessy

Exactly my point.