Jeez, Demo, you certainly are windy when it comes to bemoaning the fact that you have to pay taxes to contribute to society...I think you've cried well more than a river here.

"HIV victims? why would insurance have anything to do with that? As far as I know there is no cure for AIDS or HIV? Aren't those people gonna die anyway regardless of whether they have insurance?"

They do have drugs that will keep people with HIV alive. It keeps it from turning into AIDS. The problem is that this treatment is VERY expensive (last I heard about $20,000 per year). This is very difficult to come up with for most people without insurance. They can't afford the drugs, so they die.

"And expecting other to pay for them is somehow not 'selfish'?"

Expecting others to pay for you is selfish. A society that let's people die because they do not have $20,000 a year for medical expenses is uncivilized. It is selfish to expect people to pay for you. You take care of your fellow man whether they expect it or not. That makes you a better human being, in my humble opinion. It is a thousand times more selfish to let people die because you do not want to give up a fraction of your stash of cash. You live in America and you do not want to pay to save the lives of others outside of yourself and your immediate family. I live in America and as much as I hate paying taxes (and I do--just think, I could have a new car, or a nice vacation, or bigger place to live) I realize that there is a cause bigger than me out there and it is my duty as someone living in that cause (our civilized society) to help pay for it. So we do in America what we always do...we vote for people to represent our ideas and make laws. Those people have voted for you to pay taxes. I will vote for people who want to keep a civilized society, you will vote for people that will take society down to its bare, Darwinian core. Whoever gets the most votes wins. So far the US leans more toward you than any other developed democracy on the planet. The rest of the developed democracies lean more toward me.

I certainly think the tax system should be reformed. We waste billions of dollars a year. I'm sure that if run right, we could lower taxes and still provide a more civilized, humane society than we already have on even fewer dollars. Of course, that is probably as utopian of a dream as not having to pay taxes at all.

I know that when I lived in Korea my income was taxed less than it is here and there was no sales tax. They also provided universal healthcare. I paid $80 for an eye exam, contacts and glasses. A visit to the dentist for a cleaning ran about $5. Maybe we should ask how they do it.

let's....lets....and I don't even drink coffee.

I don't know. You still all just sound like a bunch of whiners to me. Force. Yes, somethings in life you don't like, but you just have to deal with. I do it every day. I am firmly against the government telling me what I can do with my body...yet they have many laws against that--drung laws, prostitution, euthanasia, etc... I don't like it, so I vote against people who are for Nanny State laws. We do have a representative democracy you know.

"Ah yes. The law of the jungle. You outnumber me, so you can use force to take what you want. That's really 'civilized'."

So, Demo, are you advocating a dictatorship of the libertarians? Last I checked, we were a representative democracy, and the Constitution was not etched in stone by a deity. The Constitution was written to be amended when the majority of the states through representation agreed that it should be amended. They did just that. The only other option is to overthrow the government and install creeds that were not voted on by elected representatives. If you don't like it, you have two options. 1) Hope enough other people feel as you do and get them to vote for your candidate or 2) leave. Leaving isn't really practical, especially since every other developed nation in the world takes even more taxes out of your paycheck than does the United States. That's part of living in a representative democracy. I hate the Nanny State laws, but I don't really think my government has gone out of some extra-constitutionality and oppressed me. I think they are dumb laws instituted because the populous doesn't really understand the true issues. Now, you probably feel the very same way about taxes. I however, do not feel oppressed because I live in a representative democracy, and that is what I vote for. Hence, it works for me in one way and not the other. I think part of the problem is that you are wanting to make the US government limited word for word to what a 200 year old document said when from all I have studied, that was not the entent of the founding fathers in the first place. It was written as a changable document. When it was written people has muskets, lived on a self supporting farm, never traveled 10 miles beyond their home, took care of their extended family (who did not live much past the age of 40 and did not have modern, medical expenses) and generally had no need of a modern infrustructure. Times change. The only modern states that lack public structure are Third World states. We even have an example in American history of how an extremely limited government would work even back in the pre-industrial answer. The example is the Articles of Confederation, which were a complete failure. The only thing they did successfully was organize the western territories. The US was bankrupt, had not respect overseas and could not even settle disputes among states. Which is why the founding fathers got together and completely scrapped the limited government and came up with the more centralized power. And that was in the pre-industrial age. This is the information age. We have completely diffent needs.

Wow, I end up typing that stuff over a half an hour between phone calls and do not proof-read. You get the basic idea- grammatical errors and all...

Ah, Demo and I agree on something. :)

I know Demo. I enjoy these little "tiffs" of ours. It's nice debating someone who actually knows what they are talking about (even if I disagree) and is civil in the discussion.

Ah, IndianaKyle...yes, that silly little username I made up somewhere in the early 90s and did not finally kill off until last year! What a dork (me, not you).