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(Tuscon Citizen)   Officials from Mexico denied they were trying to encourage greater migration into the United States by providing detailed maps that included roads and water stations and areas with cellphone reception beyond the Mexican border   (tucsoncitizen.com) divider line 609
    More: Followup  
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5961 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jan 2006 at 12:14 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-01-25 03:00:37 PM  
CANYONEER
there are just enough limp-wristed liberals whining about "give it back to the indians" and so on that no one itn their right mind would trust them to run so much as a mexican jumping bean ":farm"
 
2006-01-25 03:01:39 PM  
azmoviez: It probably is doable, but not really feasible practically or economically

but it is, you are protecting the border, I am not into all the terrorist/boogeyman hype but in the interest of protecting the border from terrorists you would think people would be all for it.
 
2006-01-25 03:04:02 PM  
The days of "bring me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" etc are over. The world is a different place now. It's sad but it's the way it is.

Now, only Metal Storm can solve the problem.

Solution to illegal immigrants = Area Denial weapons.



Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.



/ note: I am not in fact advocating shooting illegal immigrants
// read between the lines
 
2006-01-25 03:05:18 PM  
canyoneer

I don't get what you're ranting about, except that Republicans are still stuck in the 1930's and Americans like nostalgia. Pat yourself on the back in hopes that your good ol boys win more elections. It matters not. Wages are dropping and the cost of living is increasing. Pretending that illegal immigration is the main reason for these trends is a great election ploy, but it's an empty promise. Large, painful changes are needed in the economy. But truth isn't as fun as fiction, is it?

MinnesotaJack

Yeah, it's not like we need anyone to buy our goods...
 
2006-01-25 03:05:36 PM  
Headso: the parallel continues because they are both impossible to regulate or control. How and why would susie homemaker check the status of these "guest wokers", how do you keep the non guest workers out?

Easy. Every worker applying for a guest worker program gets an ID card. Just like a driver's license, it would have an embedded chip but could also be read like a regular ID card.

If 'Susie homemaker' checks the card, she's not liable. If you have a reasonable number of guest workers, there's no incentive to forge the card. Larger corporations would be required to buy a $20 smart-card reader to verify the card is real. The INS would set up a website where you could match a card number and a name. The program is already in place. Employers have all the tools right now to avoid hiring illegals. There is just no real enforcement or penalties for it.
 
2006-01-25 03:06:40 PM  
vernonFL: Improve the Mexican economy so that Mexicans won't want to come here.

legalizing pot?

/what are you supposed to put in slashes?
 
2006-01-25 03:08:30 PM  
MinnesotaJack: This issue is not useful for distinguishing liberal from conservative. There are fuzzy-minded liberals who can't find their asses with both hands who blabber about "compassion." There are cynical Democrats who see these illegals as a potential source of votes. There are conservatives who see a great big wad of scabs to exploit and with which to bust unions, and there are conservatives who don't give a shiat about anything but their stock portfolios and landscaping needs.

No, this issue is where you see who's a patriot and who's not. This is where you seperate those who care about their country from those who do not.
 
2006-01-25 03:08:54 PM  
Wraithbane
Well, minus the whole "in accordance with existing laws" thing. So, no, not exactly at all.

The laws are Anti-American and wrong in the first place. They need to be changed.

And having a group of people who are not integrating, do not speak the language, and are an active drain on the society does NOT make us stronger.

They seem to be integrating just fine compared to other immigrant societies. In fact, they are integrating much better than the Chinese ever did in California.

Where I grew up in North Dallas, there was a heavy Latino population. While I had many friends whose parents didn't speak english very well, it was understandable. Languages are especially difficult to learn at later ages.

Personally, I think that everyone in Texas should learn Spanish as a second language. It bothers me that we have fallen behind so many other nations in linguistic abilities.

And how, exactly, are Mexican immigrants an 'active drain on the society'? Are they the ones responsible for Ford cutting 30,000 jobs? Many illegals that I know are the hardest working folks around...they certainly wouldn't spend all day farking around on an internet site...
 
2006-01-25 03:08:58 PM  
Lets hit up yahoo maps to find the dopest route!
I prefer mapquest.
That's a good one too.
Google maps is the best.
True dat.
DOUBLE TRUE!
 
2006-01-25 03:11:41 PM  
smeegle
But but, who will pick our peaches and clean our houses?


Seriously? The legals. Or the kids down the street who wouldn't do it for $2/per hour, but will for $5/hour when the illegals suddenly have the same opportunity to work at minimum wage as the rest of us.

Really, smeegles, why should Mr. Black from Africa (who comes to America legally) with no skills lose out to Mr. Brown from Mexico (who came her illegally) with no skills in a price competition that includes the employer paying for taxes, benefits, and at minimum wage v. saving all that money. Or do those against enforcing immigration believe that we should discriminate against those people who follow the law (blacks, europeans, asians)?

Or alternatively, we can take the Libertarian position and eliminate all restrictions on employment, like minimum wage, and let everyone compete on an even playing field whether legal or illegal.

Not seriously? The Irish. Everyone knows that as soon as the potato crop dies out, the Irish have nothing better to do than get drunk.
 
2006-01-25 03:11:52 PM  
Headso: but it is, you are protecting the border,

Even countries that hate each other have some pourous borders. The Koreas is the only example I can think of where you have a DMZ and defectors/immegrants are shot on site. I am no bleeding heart but we really can't start shooting people trying to cross the border.
 
2006-01-25 03:13:29 PM  
SangamonTaylor: Personally, I think that everyone in Texas should learn Spanish as a second language. It bothers me that we have fallen behind so many other nations in linguistic abilities.

It bothers me that we are a melting pot and would have to accomodate numerous languages because of a laisse-fair attitude on making our populous responsible to learn the dominant language of the land.
 
2006-01-25 03:14:13 PM  
Look...take some semi-edumacated person (either side of the border, doesn't matter much), hand them this map, and....prepare to watch them die. If you haven't had some kind of training in orienteering, you are probably going to get lost. The lucky ones don't die. About 280 did last year, and these a$$holes just want to add to the toll.

They really, really want to keep people from crossing. Riiiiight. That's why they marked out how far you can theoretically go in three days, where the water stations are (hey, if you're lucky there might even be some water in there....if the pendejo ahead of you didn't bogart it all or leave the tap running....), etc.

If they really wanted to keep people from crossing, they would have put on the map that the temperature gets hellishly hot sometimes in mid-March until mid-October, there are no real reliable sources of water in southern Arizona, how much water the average person would need to bring with them for 3+ days (hint....more than a big gulp) and that it's damn easy to get disoriented in the desert.

Did they do any of that? Hell no! The good reverend only cares about having some brown guy mow his lawn for cheap and the "human rights" group just wants to get rid of a bunch of potential troublemakers by showing them the way to "El Norte".
 
2006-01-25 03:16:45 PM  
SangamonTaylor
The laws are Anti-American and wrong in the first place. They need to be changed.

You're entitled to your opinion, but that's all that is.

They seem to be integrating just fine compared to other immigrant societies. In fact, they are integrating much better than the Chinese ever did in California.

Again, your opinion, I've never been in a Chinese business that I couldn't speak English and get along fine. Plenty of places I couldn't function if I didn't speak Spanish, which I luckily do, even if it is poorly.

And how, exactly, are Mexican immigrants an 'active drain on the society'? Are they the ones responsible for Ford cutting 30,000 jobs? Many illegals that I know are the hardest working folks around...they certainly wouldn't spend all day farking around on an internet site...

Who's paying for the health care? The welfare benefits? etc. etc. etc.

When the starting point is that you broke a society's law to even get here, it's idiocy to argue that you are supporting the society.
 
2006-01-25 03:19:27 PM  
scooby111: If 'Susie homemaker' checks the card, she's not liable.


but if she pays the worker cash, how does he pay taxes on it?

f you have a reasonable number of guest workers

how do you judge what a reasonable number is?
 
2006-01-25 03:20:01 PM  
azmoviez
Laisse-fair attitude? Wha?

I think everyone should learn Spanish because our borders mean nothing. We are competing on the global market and, in addition to Mexico, almost all of South America speaks Spanish.

It's about being competitive on a global scale. Making our populous as competitive as possible. The Japanese have no problem requiring their chidren to learn English. It makes them stronger as a nation. Most Europeans tend to speak a second language.

Learning a second language is about accommodating illegals, it is about increasing our skills and making our populous more valuable.

/i've got skillz with the bowstaff
 
2006-01-25 03:20:03 PM  
Jesus Wept
 
2006-01-25 03:21:15 PM  
azmoviez: I am no bleeding heart but we really can't start shooting people trying to cross the border.


I don't think you need to shoot people, set up a sensor net that detects movement or something then when it goes off, use the drones to get an image, then go in and arrest them.
 
2006-01-25 03:22:53 PM  
Unfortunately, its the people who make enough money to even consider hiring a permanent staff for house cleaning/gardening that are also making the laws (or not) about these illegal criminals. So stuck we are.
 
2006-01-25 03:23:50 PM  
Pogee

I wrote about that second video in a thread yesterday. That video is hilarious!
 
2006-01-25 03:24:06 PM  
Hahahah this is great. It is difficult to see which ones of you are truly concerned about the influx of illegals and which others are just racists afraid of the brown beaners marrying your beautiful blonde, green-eyed daughters.

Anyways, growing up in Mexico and living the second half of my life in the US (legally I might add, my parents are American Citizens, story for another time), it's amazing the different viewpoints people have depending on where they're coming from.

Those that say "why don't you apply for a visa and come here legally like every one else", understand that most Mexican illegals are those that live in impoverished rural areas which have no chance of ever getting a visa and move here legally. Tough luck you say, you don't give two shiats? Well, when your kids are hungry and you don't have any money to buy them food I'm sure you wouldn't give two shiats about what some gringo thinks about you either, especially those hypocrites that will biatch and moan about them beaners but will gladly give them a job anyway just to save a few dollars. See how much you'll worry about being labeled a criminal when you are faced with that.

And having a group of people who are not integrating, do not speak the language, and are an active drain on the society does NOT make us stronger.
Funny, my girlfriend is second-generation American (grandparents from Mexico), she doesn't even speak Spanish, neither does her father, or the rest of her cousins for that matter. I think my English fairly decent. But ok, ok we're not here illegaly so I guess we don't count, BUT

if they were truly an active drain on the society they would have been GONE A LONG TIME AGO. In this country (as in every other country I'm sure), Money Talks, Bullsh*t Walks
 
2006-01-25 03:25:10 PM  
We're well known for some of the Worst (Keating and Co.) and some of the Best (O'Conner, McCain) Government officals out there.

wasn't mccain one of the keating 5?
 
2006-01-25 03:26:37 PM  
Hugh_G_Recshun
Funny, my girlfriend is second-generation American (grandparents from Mexico), she doesn't even speak Spanish, neither does her father, or the rest of her cousins for that matter. I think my English fairly decent. But ok, ok we're not here illegaly so I guess we don't count, BUT

Which means that she isn't what I'm talking about at all, is she? So what was the point in this drivel again?


if they were truly an active drain on the society they would have been GONE A LONG TIME AGO. In this country (as in every other country I'm sure), Money Talks, Bullsh*t Walks

So you think they're not a drain at all? So tell me again who's paying the hospital bills on the illegals?
 
2006-01-25 03:29:18 PM  
LocalCynic

Should it be illegal for a doctor to assist in the delivery of a baby if the woman may be illegally in the US?


Negative. This is rendering genuine humanitarian aid in an emergency situation.Now AFTERWARDS, the woman should be aprehended and returned to mexico with her child, but medical care is not something we can deny someone in good faith.

Now, to cut off your bringing up an apple to compare to my orange, aiding in illegal activity is wrong, even if the 'reason' is 'humanitarian'.

It is not illegal to be born. It is illegal to enter the US without going through INS.

Look at it another way:
It cuts down on AIDs to hand out condoms. It is not illegal to hand out condoms. Now, if you what if someone rapes a woman while wearing one of your condoms? well, that's where mens rea (spelling?) comes in.

If you hand out someone a item that has a valid, legal use... you are in the clear.

If you hand out someone a item that has a valid, legal use... in a place and time, and to a person, that makes it clear that you are supporting, aiding and abetting illegal activity, you should go to PMITA prison for years and years.

If you were handing out candy flavored condoms at NAMBLA meetings with pamphlets on how to systematically abuse children, then your farked. (AND: NO! I do not equate child molestation with illegal immigration, it is simply an example.)

It's about: why? These smae people could have set up these stations in isolated areas to help out hikers who are lost or injured, and I would have no trouble with it because hiking is legal.

In fact, that's my whole objection to undocumented illegal working aliens: Why whould they get away with breaking the law just because they are poor and of a different skin color.

\There's no downtrodden hikers yearning to eat Big Macs, so they can go hang.
 
2006-01-25 03:30:18 PM  
putting water stations out there for them in the first place should be tried for treason, seeing as how they're making it easier for anyone, not just mexicans, to get into the US illegally.

manned turrets would fix the whole problem.
 
2006-01-25 03:32:07 PM  
azmoviez
It bothers me that we are a melting pot and would have to accomodate numerous languages because of a laisse-fair attitude on making our populous responsible to learn the dominant language of the land.

I agree. I just wish/want that if people want to come over and work that's all fine-and-dandy but come here legally and we should also make English our national/state language and make/give the people a chance to learn English.

I'm pretty sure most countries have a primary/national language...why doesn't the U.S.A. have one?
 
2006-01-25 03:32:15 PM  
Put these on the boarder.

designbivouac.typepad.com
 
2006-01-25 03:33:18 PM  
Hugh_G_Recshun

most Mexican illegals are those that live in impoverished rural areas which have no chance of ever getting a visa and move here legally.

Good. Keep them the hell out. They aren't successful in their home country, and probably won't be here either.

Why do we always
have to be accepting of the bottom of the barrel when it comes to immigration into Western countries? Why is this?

We breed enough ignorant under educated people here as it is. There is no need to import more from other countries, and don't tell me I'm one of the ignorant ones just because I don't feel the need to be at all welcoming to every minority group which comes along and says "Help me.".
 
2006-01-25 03:33:30 PM  
Headso: but if she pays the worker cash, how does he pay taxes on it?

You're missing the point. Individuals hiring one person to do one job isn't why people are swarming across the border. If the bulk of the jobs aren't available to illegals anymore, then who cares about the Susie Homemakers any more?

how do you judge what a reasonable number is?

The same way we fund programs. Start with estimating the number of illegals working here now and add maybe a 5% buffer. Listen to feedback from states and cities to determine how to adjust it for next year.
 
2006-01-25 03:34:50 PM  
smd31
I'm pretty sure most countries have a primary/national language...why doesn't the U.S.A. have one?

Because somehow that becomes racist. Something about how society should conform to individuals rather than individuals conforming to society.
 
2006-01-25 03:35:03 PM  
To those complaining about illegal Mexican immigrants:

My ancestors felt the same way about the white illegal aliens who invaded North America, stole their land and destroyed their natural resources.

What goes around comes around.
 
2006-01-25 03:36:52 PM  
LocalCynic: "I don't get what you're ranting about, except that Republicans are still stuck in the 1930's and Americans like nostalgia. Pat yourself on the back in hopes that your good ol boys win more elections. It matters not. Wages are dropping and the cost of living is increasing. Pretending that illegal immigration is the main reason for these trends is a great election ploy, but it's an empty promise. Large, painful changes are needed in the economy. But truth isn't as fun as fiction, is it?"

You mischarcaterize me, friend. I'm no Republican. In fact, the blame for this must rest primarily with the Republicans. After all, they've controlled the Congress for over ten years and the White House for five. They have an absolute majority, and if so inclined could take meaningful action at any time. Clearly, they have no interest in doing so. They like scab labor. They like busting unions. They like driving wages down across the board. They hire gardeners and run most of the businesses that employ illegals. George Bush likes illegal immigration, and cynically refuses to enforce the law while pushing draconian measures on other "security" issues. This should all be obvious to anyone: If you don't like the illegal immigration situation, you can blame Bush and the Republicans.

The Democrats, on the other hand, are utterly clueless to the point of retardation on this. Pathetic. I could carve a better "opposition" party out of a rotten banana.

As to the economy at large, it is a farce based on cheap petroleum and junk bonds peddled to gullible Asian banks which are now so long on the stuff that they daren't dump it. No, this economy is based on cheap gas and the exploitation of foreign labor, with real estate as the phoney-baloney debt instrument supporting the mathematics.

Just let these arrogant meatheads in the White House drop one 2,000-pounder on an Iranian reactor and the price of petroleum will go stratospheric. Then the air will whistle out of the balloon very quickly, and all the "essential" jobs performed by illegal aliens while disappear overnight. If things come together just right (or wrong, depending on your perspective), illegal aliens will need maps telling them how to get BACK.
 
2006-01-25 03:37:01 PM  
Mercenary Fox

You suggest deporting an American citizen? It's right there in the Constitution, clear as day.

Any child born on U.S. soil is a citizen of our great nation.

Is it time for a Constitutional amendment?
 
2006-01-25 03:37:12 PM  
Allowing all the illegal immigrants just helps prop up the corrupt shiathole that is the Mexican Government. Which is one of the reasons they have Mexican troops on their southern border. They don't want Central Americans crossing through Mexico to the US because Central Americans would take jobs from illegal Mexican Immigrants and then not send the money back to Mexico. All these problems stem from Mexico being a corrupt,shiatty country.
 
2006-01-25 03:38:02 PM  
Bah, if they want a better life, there's a better way than illegal immigration...

"The mill's closed! There's no more work. We're destitute. I've got no option but to sell you all for scientific experiments."
 
2006-01-25 03:39:29 PM  
GungFu: "Jesus Wept"

To hell with Jebus. Jebus is mythology. Apollo whined. Odin farted. Ganesh pooped. Mohammed burped. Mawsau planted corn. So what?
 
2006-01-25 03:39:44 PM  
Wraithbane [TotalFark]
Which means that she isn't what I'm talking about at all, is she? So what was the point in this drivel again?
The point of my "drivel" is that people that spend enough time in this country always assimilate, even if it takes a generation or two. I don't know anybody who was born in this country and lived here all their lives and NOT know any English.

So you think they're not a drain at all? So tell me again who's paying the hospital bills on the illegals?
Like I said, if they brought nothing to the table, they would have been gone a long time ago. Are they a drain? Do I think they're a drain? I don't know, I don't run hospitals s I'm only telling you what I know.

Look, I have no excuse for illegals, they're here illegally and that's that, I'm merely pointing out that if they are so much of a drain, why are they not kicked out of the country, why do they keep getting hired. Obviously somebody wants them here...why do these people never get blamed too? They're criminals also.
 
2006-01-25 03:40:05 PM  
scooby111: Individuals hiring one person to do one job isn't why people are swarming across the border

yes it is, as I have said before in this thread, something like 50% of the illegals here are hired by individuals. so 1 out of 2 people are ineed coming here to be hired by susie homemaker.



Listen to feedback from states and cities to determine how to adjust it for next year.

and if it a smaller number then the number of people wanting to enter the US then you will have them entering illegally.
 
2006-01-25 03:40:30 PM  
Headso: I don't think you need to shoot people, set up a sensor net that detects movement or something then when it goes off, use the drones to get an image, then go in and arrest them.

What if they sabotage the sensor system? How many INS agents would it take to cover 1000 miles? Where would we store those we caught? Would Mexico ensure that they won't just try again when they get deported or would we permanently lock these people up?
 
2006-01-25 03:40:46 PM  
azmoviez

To get to the US to work, illegal immegrants have to pay a smuggler a huge amount of money just to take a risk that they'll dump them some place. Or they can risk crossing the desert. I'm no bleeding heart and I understand that's the risk they take, but once they are here why would they want to go back?


So what you're saying is that it's better to make an epidemic crime legal than to enforce the law on said crime. If there's an epidemic of burglaries in a city, should the city legalize burglary? We're talking about a crime here.

If you gave them the opportunity to work seasonally, why would they want to stay? Their measly wages would go further in Mexico than here.

Illegals are already wiring a good portion of their money back to Mexico. Thus, why legislators wanted to introduce a tax on wire transfers to Mexico.

The problem would of course be enforcing business hiring practice. The only way to do that would be to threaten jail time and huge corporate fines. They would comply if you gave it some teeth.

Why would a guest worker program coupled with strict enforcement of immigration laws be better than strict enforcement of immigration laws alone? You're not convincing me, here.
 
2006-01-25 03:41:19 PM  
Lorelle
My ancestors felt the same way about the white illegal aliens who invaded North America, stole their land and destroyed their natural resources.

So did mine....

SangamonTaylor
You suggest deporting an American citizen? It's right there in the Constitution, clear as day.

Any child born on U.S. soil is a citizen of our great nation.

Is it time for a Constitutional amendment?


Actually, that's an interpretation, there are very valid arguments that it was NOT meant to bestow citizenship merely for being born here.

eKonk
"The mill's closed! There's no more work. We're destitute. I've got no option but to sell you all for scientific experiments."

+2 points for the Monty Python reference.
 
2006-01-25 03:42:01 PM  
canyoneer: GungFu: "Jesus Wept"

To hell with Jebus. Jebus is mythology. Apollo whined. Odin farted. Ganesh pooped. Mohammed burped. Mawsau planted corn. So what?


It's pronounced 'hay-zeus'
 
2006-01-25 03:43:10 PM  
Pogee
Why do we always have to be accepting of the bottom of the barrel when it comes to immigration into Western countries? Why is this?

Where is the outrage at the companies that employ these people?
 
2006-01-25 03:43:53 PM  
I like my lettuce cheap!
 
2006-01-25 03:44:43 PM  
SangamonTaylor: Is it time for a Constitutional amendment?

I think so, yes.
 
2006-01-25 03:45:00 PM  
Lorelle - get over it, they should have fought harder. Go open a casino.
 
2006-01-25 03:45:19 PM  
canyoneer

Well, I misjudged you. I don't agree about the resolution, but I think we're speaking somewhere on the same plane of thought. I don't see immigration as the single OMFGTHEWORLD SIG OING TO END!!@1!! type issue - it's part of the bigger puzzle, and the people in government who drum up mass hysteria are trying to whore in votes.
 
2006-01-25 03:45:47 PM  
if a guest worker program is established, whether or not it is amnesty or not, won't businesses pass along all added costs to consumers?
(cost of paperwork to keep track of guest workers)
and, once illegal immigrants are here legally, they wouldn't be afraid of reporting employers for low wages or working conditions....guest workers should form a union, which would raise wages up to about where they already are
 
2006-01-25 03:46:09 PM  
Hugh_G_Recshun
The point of my "drivel" is that people that spend enough time in this country always assimilate, even if it takes a generation or two. I don't know anybody who was born in this country and lived here all their lives and NOT know any English.

Again, not the subject of this conversation, so pointless reference.

I don't know, I don't run hospitals s I'm only telling you what I know.

And it appears that "what you know" is "I don't know". You have your opinion, fine, so do I, and I'm just as entitled to state mine as you are to state yours. If you want to tell me you don't agree, I can live with that, if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, offer proof.

Look, I have no excuse for illegals, they're here illegally and that's that, I'm merely pointing out that if they are so much of a drain, why are they not kicked out of the country, why do they keep getting hired. Obviously somebody wants them here...why do these people never get blamed too? They're criminals also.

If you'd have read the thread you'd have seen that argument made more than a few times.

While some small portion takes advantage of the use of illegals, the cost is spread among all, including those who are NOT taking advantage. So when my dollar (figuratively speaking) is being taking for a purpose that I am not responsible for, I have every reason to speak up.
 
2006-01-25 03:46:15 PM  
img398.imageshack.us
 
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