If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Tuscon Citizen)   Officials from Mexico denied they were trying to encourage greater migration into the United States by providing detailed maps that included roads and water stations and areas with cellphone reception beyond the Mexican border   (tucsoncitizen.com) divider line 602
    More: Followup  
•       •       •

5957 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jan 2006 at 12:14 PM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



602 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | » | Last | Show all
 
2006-01-25 02:30:25 PM
If we are going to import cheap labor, why don't we do it without also building up a large Catholic voting base at the same time?
 
2006-01-25 02:30:41 PM
dhudd
Or we could do the obvious and give the southwest back to its rightful owners - Mexico.

Considering Mexico only owned it for 27 years, I think you actually mean the Spanish who were there first, don't you?

Or possibly the Indians who were there before the Spanish?

You know, the same Indians who, still there, are now American Citizens?

So, they original inhabitants do actually own it! Damn!

Your argument really doesn't go anywhere, you know?
 
2006-01-25 02:31:07 PM
LocalCynic, outsourcing is done, among other reasons, to improve quality. Look it up. Living in California and paying outrageous rent because there is too much demand for housing (because of illegals) and having an employers bodly tell my son (with no shame) that he hires illegals because they work for less is NOT improving quality. These businesses who operate in America but do not obey our laws should be fined out of business for worrying more about their profit than about operating legally. Illegals are not only causing wages to be lowered across the board but they are hastening the next great depression. I sincerely hope you were being fecitious. It won't be funny when you can't find work, when your car gets totalled by an uninsured illegal, and your child has to pay for college but illegals get college educations for free.
I'm married to an American born hispanic whose parents migrated legally. Even they hate the illegals.
Scooby111 is correct. Part of the solution is fining the people who hire the illegals. The other part is getting Bush and Chertoff and all the other sympathizers out of office. It's a crying shame when some of our highest leaders are Mexicos biatches.
 
2006-01-25 02:31:47 PM
canyoneer

I couldn't agree with you more.

So long as it's easier to flee to the North, things back home won't change. Mexico needs a nice revolution, needs to clean itself up. When people stay home, work things out and try to make a better country for themselves, things get better.

Until then, seal the borders.

And, speaking as a Canadian, I favor sealing OUR borders to illegal immigration as well. It's much too easy for people to get into this country, and we are much too slow at deporting them. It's not xenophobia or racism, it's following the rule of law as set down ob behalf of the people already residing in the country.
 
2006-01-25 02:31:54 PM
this aggression will not stand
 
2006-01-25 02:32:16 PM
Headso: who is going to actually track down the hundreds of thousands of people hiring these people to work on their home for a day

Nobody. Who would want to? You bust the big guys and you bust the people who you happen to stumble upon. By making it a criminal matter and up to law enforcement, you don't have to make a special effort to bust those people. You fine them and prosecute them as you find them. What 'backyard Joe' is going to hire an illegal to do his lawn work when he knows that it may cost him $25K and a month in jail?

LincolnLogolas: 1. More illegal immigration, as it's been shown that Mexicans flood the borders every time the "Guest Worker" program is discussed by the president

Because they know that the president isn't serious about enforcement. They know that the president isn't considering any new laws and that he intends to provide amnisty at some point. If you pass a tough law that provides real fines and real criminal penalties to those who hire illegals, then a guest-worker program will work.

2. Citizenship being granted to tens of millions of people who entered this country illegally in 5 years, when the "guest worker" statuses begin expiring. These people are not going to leave. Why would they?

Uh, because they couldn't find a job? Because their employer would simply fire them to avoid the thousands of dollars of fines and potential jail time? That's why a guest worker program can't work without severe penalties for violating it.
 
2006-01-25 02:32:36 PM
autopr0n: "Unlike our leaders who don't act like thuggish mobsters at all."

Have you ever BEEN to Mexico? I'll tell you what: Why don't you go spend a couple of months in the barrios of Mexico City, huh? Take some time to soak in the local flavor and observe the workings of the Mexican government, and then report back to us, OK?
 
2006-01-25 02:34:02 PM
Mercenary Fox: Perhaps we should just make them a state and absorb the whole damn thing.

Uh. Let's not.

I mean, we're corrupt and all, but I don't want my mayor to be shot seven hours into taking office.
 
2006-01-25 02:35:56 PM
scooby111: You bust the big guys and you bust the people who you happen to stumble upon. By making it a criminal matter and up to law enforcement, you don't have to make a special effort to bust those people. You fine them and prosecute them as you find them. What 'backyard Joe' is going to hire an illegal to do his lawn work when he knows that it may cost him $25K and a month in jail?


that sounds like the war on drugs to me, and I bet it would have the same success.
 
2006-01-25 02:36:02 PM
Ditto: If we are going to import cheap labor, why don't we do it without also building up a large Catholic voting base at the same time?


Uh, they're not voting.

Also, Catholics recently have been very moderate.
I mean, the Pope just denounced intelligent design a couple of days ago.
 
2006-01-25 02:36:41 PM
SangamonTaylor
You must not get out of Kansas much Mr. Wraith. Texas, where I have lived is very much a Latino state, as is California, New Mexico, and Arizona. If you think that we have 'ethnic differences' from our neighbors to the South, you have a good amount to learn buddy.

I welcome our rich history (6 Flags over Texas biatch) and Latin culture in my state (along with the margharitas, Dos Equis tortillas & chimichangas).

You got a problem with Texas? If so, you're walkin on the fightin side of me. As a Texan, I realize that our rich culture, history (diversity) has made us stronger.


A problem with Texas? Other than it creates Texans...not really.

And the fact that you don't notice the differences locally isn't as much the issue as the differences it's creating within the nation.

As far as the rest of your ill-considered tirade, let's see.

I've been in 32 states and 13 countries.

My mother, two brothers, and half a dozen neices and nephews live in the Ft. Hood area.

My Father and Mother in law, a sister in law, and her two kids live on the Mexican Border in Texas.

My Father-in-law is latino, as well as the most educated man I know, and has my deep respect.

So I guess you didn't managed to get a single thing right with that post. Thanks for playing.

Oh yeah, "fightin side" comment? Absolutely quaking in my boots.
 
2006-01-25 02:37:04 PM
Mexican-Americans
Don't like to get up early
But they have to
So they do it anyway

-Willam Carlos Williams
 
2006-01-25 02:39:26 PM
canyoneer

American "liberals" who resist solving this disaster are just dumber than dirt and are shooting themselves in the foot. Don't you get it? Illegal immigration is making all the "liberal" dreams impossible: National healthcare, good schools, unionism, decent wages, and a clean environment. How stupid are the "liberals" in this country, anyway? Don't they get it? Enabling the corrupt dons of Mexico in this way supports their intrinsically racist, rigged set-up.
...
It is almost unbelievable, yet it is true: The Democrat Party and American liberals display IQ's of less than zero on this thing.

And Tom Tancredo of the "glass parking lot" variety knows better? You can be an apologist as much as you want, but those people don't care about your plight and loss of jobs. If they did, you'd see a George Wallace style third party run. The neo-conservatives are lovey dovey with Fox, and the garden variety conservative wants a return to pre-WWII isolationism. Building your Maginot Line along the border won't solve the problem. It'll do plenty to stop free trade, though.

There's an inherent tension between chestbeating, flag-waving I'M AN AMURICAN THESE CULURS DON'T RUN patriotism and Wal-Mart low prices. When US policy is being most heavily influenced by groups that have zero interst in the US, only in the bottom line, your criticism is meaningless. Build as many walls as you want, kill as many immigrants as you like.

Upset that your schools and hospitals suck? Well, I guess too bad. I mean, this is the "ownership society." You're on your own, bub.
 
2006-01-25 02:39:32 PM
MinnesotaJack

"President Vicente Fox warned on Tuesday that a proposed high security border fence to keep illegal immigrants out of the United States will fall just like the Berlin Wall"


As long as Vicente Fox knows that this comparison of his places Mexico along with EAST Germany ... since that is the direction that the people are fleeing, to get OUT of Mexico.
 
2006-01-25 02:39:50 PM
Illegal immigration is a misnomer. It is not immigration, which implies something legal. This is pure and simple "illegal border crossing".

It need to stop..and now. This is an act of aggression on the part of Mexico, which should be looked at a a prelude to economic and cultural war. I mean, it is unconscionable that your neighbouring state would be advocating the breaking of your laws, and assist its "undesirables" in doing so.

I'm a normally coolheaded guy and laid back, but enough is enough. The government better just tell Mexico that this type of action is considered an act of aggression and if it does not cease and desist, we should consider it an act of war and take measures accordingly.
 
2006-01-25 02:39:50 PM
azmoviez

That's why it needs to be a seasonal pass that gets evaluated every five years. Why would you want to stay here when you are not working (making money) and the cost of living is far higher than in Mexico.


We're back to the same problem, aren't we? Guest worker permits expire, you've got lots of illegals sitting around. Cheap (albeit illegal) labor pool. What, you think the farmcorps are going to ignore the illegals so they can hire those with Guest Worker Permits? You're really underestimating the power of the bottom line as to how a corporation is run. Corporations are not moral. They will not act in the best interests of people. They will act to maximize profits. They will skirt the law or outright break it if it's more profitable to break the law than to abide by it.

If a corporation can get away with hiring illegals, are they going to bother with guest workers that they have to pay more? Why bother, when it's obvious that nobody's going to bother enforcing the law?

Guest Worker (amnesty) programs are not a solution. They're not even a patch, they'll just make the problem bigger. The solution is to enforce the law.
 
2006-01-25 02:40:42 PM
LocalCynic: You can be an apologist as much as you want


canyoneer an apologist? BWAHAHAHAHAHA
 
2006-01-25 02:42:18 PM
Okay. I have a rule that I won't post unless my heart rate is below 80 bpm and/or I have taken a 5 minute cool-off break. I'm breaking my rule because I'm really pissed off.

I was born and raised in Colorado and I have witnessed the downfall of a beautiful state. Yep, you guessed it. Illegals. I was a nurse at UCHSC and have one brother and two cousins as Denver cops. So please, don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I left CO last year due to an increase in crime (usually illegals and hispanics) and traffic (probably their fault, too-hehe.)

/Whatever...call me a racist
//But if you do, tell me why I shouldn't be
///Build the wall
 
2006-01-25 02:44:34 PM
LincolnLogolas: If a corporation can get away with hiring illegals, are they going to bother with guest workers that they have to pay more? Why bother, when it's obvious that nobody's going to bother enforcing the law?

Guest Worker (amnesty) programs are not a solution. They're not even a patch, they'll just make the problem bigger. The solution is to enforce the law.


Like I've been saying, it has to be a two pronged approach. Guest worker program where there is a certain level of "right of return" and heavy fines for anyone that gets caught hiring illegals.

Flawless it ain't, but there's no possible way to have 24 hour a day enforcement on a 1000 mile border. There's no way a wall would prevent them from digging under or breaking holes in it.

Right now a sensible guest worker program is pretty much the only way to curb illegal immegration and to help Mexico improve. I mean we just aren't going to invade Mexico. Ever.
 
2006-01-25 02:46:08 PM
El_Camino_SS

Uh, they're not voting.

Also, Catholics recently have been very moderate.
I mean, the Pope just denounced intelligent design a couple of days ago.


Maybe not this generation but there many children will.

You know one of the primary stratigies used in getting the gay marriage amendment on to the Texas constitution was to target the Latino and black voters. They voted in record numbers too.
 
2006-01-25 02:47:04 PM
"I sure hope that was intentionally facetious. If not, it's amazingly ignorant. Under the table work thrives among citizens, and if think somebody will prefer to let uncle sugar take 25% or more of his check, rather than doing it under the table, you're nuts."

That only works if you get paid in cash, or get paid with a check from the bank that doesn't mind cashing it.
 
2006-01-25 02:47:13 PM
I love it when people say oh they take the jobs Americans won't take. Well NO shiat! You think they are going to hop the border and get computer programming jobs. They get the jobs were they do manual labor and don't really have to communicate much.
 
2006-01-25 02:47:53 PM
azmoviez: but there's no possible way to have 24 hour a day enforcement on a 1000 mile border

why not? we have the most powerful military in the world by far, we have satellites and the most advanced technology to bring to bare against this problem. even if we curbed the influx by 70% we would be alot better off.
 
2006-01-25 02:48:25 PM
Mi-5: This is an act of aggression on the part of Mexico, which should be looked at a a prelude to economic and cultural war.

Spanish TV is awful, and this cultural aggression will not be met peacefully.
 
2006-01-25 02:50:17 PM
YatesFan: Didnt we already give them a massive bail out in the early 1990's.

Yes we did. We bought billions of Peso's to keep them afloat.

Why don't we improve their economy? For the same reason their borders are so bad.

The corruption in Mexico is so rampant, aid would to little to help. There is a minimum standard of banking and infrastructure you have must provide before economic help makes a difference.

But the truth is, once you establish all those things, you probably won't need our help.
 
2006-01-25 02:51:10 PM
azmoviez

Like I've been saying, it has to be a two pronged approach. Guest worker program where there is a certain level of "right of return" and heavy fines for anyone that gets caught hiring illegals.

Flawless it ain't, but there's no possible way to have 24 hour a day enforcement on a 1000 mile border. There's no way a wall would prevent them from digging under or breaking holes in it.

Right now a sensible guest worker program is pretty much the only way to curb illegal immegration and to help Mexico improve. I mean we just aren't going to invade Mexico. Ever.


The problem is, one of the prongs on this "two-prong approach" is as dull as a butterknife. Tell me how a guest worker program curbs illegal immigration, or even how it assists in the strict enforcement of immigration laws. In fact, tell me how it even benefits Mexico aside from the fact that Mexico gets to dump off a bunch of their poorest on the US legally.

Really, explain this to me, how does a guest worker program make it easier to identify illegals? It doesn't. It just takes a large number of those illegals and says "Okay, you guys can stay."
 
2006-01-25 02:51:14 PM
Mija

LocalCynic, outsourcing is done, among other reasons, to improve quality. Look it up. Living in California and paying outrageous rent because there is too much demand for housing (because of illegals) and having an employers bodly tell my son (with no shame) that he hires illegals because they work for less is NOT improving quality.

Unfortunately you're not asking the painful but necessary question, are we expecting too much pay for what we do? Nobody - not me, not you, not conservatives or liberals - wants to ask that. Over the past 50 years or so we've developed a standard of living that is way beyond what any other nation has. Our economy has grown on the backs of conspicuous consumer spending, in which people are told to buy buy buy even though they're progressively being paid jack less.

That's the problem I have. Illegal immigration is a problem. But when you make it into the World War III crisis that needs to be solved before all others, you ignore other systemic problems in our economy. It's easy to talk Tancredo tough about immigration. But as of now the so-called solutions to the problem aren't going to do much to solve it. A national ID card is going to make identity theft easier. A huge wall is going to make legitimate trade harder and will likely destroy any chance of solidifying free trade talks in Latin America and elsewhere. And so on.

The immigration problem needs to be viewed as part of the big picture. Not some singular crisis.
 
2006-01-25 02:51:58 PM
Headso: even if we curbed the influx by 70% we would be alot better off.

we'd be better off until the huge outcry of skyrocketing food and construction costs.

either we reap the benefits of cheap labor and pay less, or save money in social services and pay more.

neither choice seems terribly appealing.
 
2006-01-25 02:52:04 PM
Wraithbane
And the fact that you don't notice the differences locally isn't as much the issue as the differences it's creating within the nation.

My comments were in response to your prediction of impending doom and genocide because of what you state are ethnic and religious differences. You made the comparison to Yugoslavia, correct?

Our differences is what make us distinctly American. Half of my family were poor Norwegians who settled in southern Kansas and Oklahoma and later mixed with the Cherokee peoples.

They didn't have to jump through any hoops to come to America, they just got on a boat and followed their dreams. This is exactly what our neighbors to the South are doing.

Though I am troubled that people are here illegally, I completely understand the desire to be a part of the greatest nation on Earth. This is why I think they should be welcomed with open arms. This is why the border should be opened. It makes us stronger.
 
2006-01-25 02:53:18 PM
Headso: scooby111: You bust the big guys and you bust the people who you happen to stumble upon. By making it a criminal matter and up to law enforcement, you don't have to make a special effort to bust those people. You fine them and prosecute them as you find them. What 'backyard Joe' is going to hire an illegal to do his lawn work when he knows that it may cost him $25K and a month in jail?

that sounds like the war on drugs to me, and I bet it would have the same success.


Sigh. That's where the parallel ends. In the war on drugs, you're artifically limiting the supply and thus increasing the price. This encourages people who have no respect for the law to break it in order to reap huge profits.

With immigration, your demand never goes up. There are suddenly lots of guest workers there to fill the need. Susie homemaker doesn't need to break the law to get the job done. The price of the labor may go up a bit because they are suddenly paying taxes and employers have to abide by the minimum wage, but paying a couple of dollars more an hour is much preferable than the risks.
 
2006-01-25 02:54:05 PM
Headso: why not? we have the most powerful military in the world by far, we have satellites and the most advanced technology to bring to bare against this problem. even if we curbed the influx by 70% we would be alot better off.

Frankly we don't have the manpower. Even in Iraq with our military might there we can't stop insurgents from coming in, and these people 100% want to do us harm.

As for the US/Mexico border... If you build a fence they would tunnel under or go over. If you build a moat they will build a bridge. Satellites can detect if people are coming through but they are a little late. We could always deploy Predator drones to monitor the place, but you'd have to have 50 of them up, 24 hours a day.

It probably is doable, but not really feasible practically or economically (kind of like a missle defense system).
 
2006-01-25 02:54:26 PM
LocalCynic: Thank you for proving my point. Rather than deal with the issue itself, you go into a meaningless rant about neoconservatives.

Like the drooling imbecile "leadership" of the Democrat Party, your fuzzy notion of "compassion" (for non-citizens, BTW) cause you to totally flub the tailor-made, populist issue with which the "conservatives" you so hate could be absolutely thrashed at the polls.

In the process of displaying your lack of wits, you stab your natural constituency (the American working class) in the back in a mad scramble to pander to foreign scabs.

As a bonus, your dithering ono the issue simply plays into the hands of the corrupt thugs who run the dystopic country of Mexico.

Congratulations, Einstein. No wonder your party gets drubbed year after year: American voters dimly perceive that Republicans, though venal and repulsive, actually possess intelligences somewhat higher than a potato bug.
 
2006-01-25 02:55:33 PM
Ok, we could consider giving the southwest back to its rightful owners the digger indians, the Navajo and the Hopi.
 
2006-01-25 02:56:02 PM
static.flickr.com

/Just sayin'
 
2006-01-25 02:56:17 PM
steelturman.typepad.com
 
2006-01-25 02:56:18 PM
LOCAL CYNIC

"destroy any chance of solidifying free trade talks in Latin America and elsewhere"

good.
 
2006-01-25 02:56:20 PM
You have to see the humor in this:

Fishing
for Illegals
 
2006-01-25 02:56:21 PM
SangamonTaylor
This is exactly what our neighbors to the South are doing.

Well, minus the whole "in accordance with existing laws" thing. So, no, not exactly at all.

And having a group of people who are not integrating, do not speak the language, and are an active drain on the society does NOT make us stronger.
 
2006-01-25 02:58:02 PM
azmoviez

50 predator drones? For the border? The border that is nearly 2000 miles long? That's a predator every 40 miles. You think that'll really eliminate border crossings?
 
2006-01-25 02:58:34 PM
This one is better.

Illegals
Get Work
 
2006-01-25 02:58:51 PM
scooby111

the parallel continues because they are both impossible to regulate or control. How and why would susie homemaker check the status of these "guest wokers", how do you keep the non guest workers out?
 
2006-01-25 03:00:21 PM
LincolnLogolas: Tell me how a guest worker program curbs illegal immigration, or even how it assists in the strict enforcement of immigration laws.

To get to the US to work, illegal immegrants have to pay a smuggler a huge amount of money just to take a risk that they'll dump them some place. Or they can risk crossing the desert. I'm no bleeding heart and I understand that's the risk they take, but once they are here why would they want to go back?

If you gave them the opportunity to work seasonally, why would they want to stay? Their measly wages would go further in Mexico than here.

The problem would of course be enforcing business hiring practice. The only way to do that would be to threaten jail time and huge corporate fines. They would comply if you gave it some teeth.
 
2006-01-25 03:00:26 PM
But but, who will pick our peaches and clean our houses?
 
2006-01-25 03:00:37 PM
CANYONEER
there are just enough limp-wristed liberals whining about "give it back to the indians" and so on that no one itn their right mind would trust them to run so much as a mexican jumping bean ":farm"
 
2006-01-25 03:01:39 PM
azmoviez: It probably is doable, but not really feasible practically or economically

but it is, you are protecting the border, I am not into all the terrorist/boogeyman hype but in the interest of protecting the border from terrorists you would think people would be all for it.
 
2006-01-25 03:04:02 PM
The days of "bring me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" etc are over. The world is a different place now. It's sad but it's the way it is.

Now, only Metal Storm can solve the problem.

Solution to illegal immigrants = Area Denial weapons.



Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.



/ note: I am not in fact advocating shooting illegal immigrants
// read between the lines
 
2006-01-25 03:05:18 PM
canyoneer

I don't get what you're ranting about, except that Republicans are still stuck in the 1930's and Americans like nostalgia. Pat yourself on the back in hopes that your good ol boys win more elections. It matters not. Wages are dropping and the cost of living is increasing. Pretending that illegal immigration is the main reason for these trends is a great election ploy, but it's an empty promise. Large, painful changes are needed in the economy. But truth isn't as fun as fiction, is it?

MinnesotaJack

Yeah, it's not like we need anyone to buy our goods...
 
2006-01-25 03:05:36 PM
Headso: the parallel continues because they are both impossible to regulate or control. How and why would susie homemaker check the status of these "guest wokers", how do you keep the non guest workers out?

Easy. Every worker applying for a guest worker program gets an ID card. Just like a driver's license, it would have an embedded chip but could also be read like a regular ID card.

If 'Susie homemaker' checks the card, she's not liable. If you have a reasonable number of guest workers, there's no incentive to forge the card. Larger corporations would be required to buy a $20 smart-card reader to verify the card is real. The INS would set up a website where you could match a card number and a name. The program is already in place. Employers have all the tools right now to avoid hiring illegals. There is just no real enforcement or penalties for it.
 
2006-01-25 03:06:40 PM
vernonFL: Improve the Mexican economy so that Mexicans won't want to come here.

legalizing pot?

/what are you supposed to put in slashes?
 
2006-01-25 03:08:30 PM
MinnesotaJack: This issue is not useful for distinguishing liberal from conservative. There are fuzzy-minded liberals who can't find their asses with both hands who blabber about "compassion." There are cynical Democrats who see these illegals as a potential source of votes. There are conservatives who see a great big wad of scabs to exploit and with which to bust unions, and there are conservatives who don't give a shiat about anything but their stock portfolios and landscaping needs.

No, this issue is where you see who's a patriot and who's not. This is where you seperate those who care about their country from those who do not.
 
Displayed 50 of 602 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report