FARK.com: (1871139) Roe vs. Wade celebrates 33 years of being the only thing that matters when confirming Supreme Court justices

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		Roe vs. Wade celebrates 33 years of being the only thing that matters when confirming Supreme Court justices (cnn.com)		615
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YouSirAreAMaroon		2006-01-23 03:14:46 PM

danlpoon

To myself, and most Constitutional scholars, Roe v. Wade is not an issue of abortion, it is an issue of State's rights. The Federal government has no authority to regulate abortion, nor should it. If the citizens of the States support abortion, allow them to ratify a Constitutional amendment, Roe v. Wade is simply a bad means to a laudable end.

TigerTigerBurningBright		2006-01-23 03:15:09 PM

Trueaustinite: You don't understand. None of those things is on their way to becoming a life. Left alone, your noturnal emissions merely result in embarassment when your mother comes into your room in the morning. Left alone, a fertilized egg becomes a child more than 2/3 of the time.

Look, left alone, you will most likely live through the rest of today. However, with human intervention (someone wanted to try a 40th trimester abortion on you), you probably would not. Thus, abortion=murder.

smeegle		2006-01-23 03:16:40 PM

You don't have to be a lawyer to decide if Roe v Wade should be overturned.
I'm thinking the qualification is to be a woman.
Ya know, the one who 's body does all the work after conception.
This is really a private health issue for women.

It doesn't matter what the courts do, women will have abortions if they so choose, one way or another.
Deal.

rob.d		2006-01-23 03:18:10 PM

I'm interested in the numbers, how many abortions are delayed beyond the first trimester?

Of these, how many are aborted because of defects found in the embryo?

I'm curious to the validity that woman are using abortion as birth control as it just does not make sense.

danlpoon		2006-01-23 03:18:34 PM

The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy. In a line of decisions, however, going back perhaps as far as Union Pacific R. Co. v. Botsford, 141 U.S. 250, 251 (1891), the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution. In varying contexts, the Court or individual Justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right in the First Amendment, in the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, in the penumbras of the Bill of Rights, or in the concept of liberty guaranteed by the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment. These decisions make it clear that only personal rights that can be deemed "fundamental" or "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty and are included in this guarantee of personal privacy.

Smarshmallow		2006-01-23 03:18:48 PM

TigerTigerBurningBright

Shmarshmallow: http://www.niehs.nih.gov/oc/news/embryos.htm

1/3 of fertilized embryos are lost, including miscarriages. that leaves, by my calculation, 2/3 that become children, w/o human interference. 2/3 i think is a majority. dance back.

The clinical definition of "pregnancy" is a fertilized egg that has already imbeded itself in the uterine wall, so the 60% death rate is of the fraction that have successfully implanted. Most fertilized eggs don't implant.

Felgraf		2006-01-23 03:18:59 PM

Ah, the Abortion issue. So delicious fubared that I don't know where to begin.

Making it illegal opens up such a huge can of worms. What if the mother was raped? Is it okay then? But, then, what do you do? Do you wait for the trial to end, and see if the person is found guilty? By then, the child will be born! Furthermore, isn't it still 'murder'? It's not the kid's fault.

Or what if the child threatens the life of the mother? Not the baby's fault, either.

And should we prossecute/investigate every woman who has a miscarraige/child born with a birth defect? It could be their fault, after all!

On the flipside, I feel very, very uneasy stating "Life begins when you have X. ammount of conciousness". How do we define that? Does that mean that it would be okay to go around offing retarded people like hitler? After all, they're 'less human' than I am, by that definition.

Really, I get so pissed that people waste SO MUCH GOD DAMN TIME on Roe vs. Wade. ARG! If we devoted even a tenth of the energy and money spent on this god-damn STUPID FIGHT on things like condoms and other birth control taht could be made freely available, sex education, and the like, then it would become a moot point!

Why not focus on making it so that abortions, while legal, are no longer necessary ? This is what drives me nuts... it seems like no one even cares to try that!

LocalCynic		2006-01-23 03:19:19 PM

DJNewStyle

Hey, pregnancy is no cake-walk. It is hard, but you can have all the sex you want. Just be responsible when something comes of it. You still do not have to abort the child.

Dude, why is anything what you're saying any less reactionary than the old man talking about building character by working out in the heat all day?

If you think that our society has grown soft and un-manly, whatever. But quit trumpeting the "personal responsibility" buzzword. It's meaningless. Absolutely meaningless.

soze		2006-01-23 03:19:32 PM

Oh, and if you haven't yet, I recommend the linked article in my profile called "The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion". :D

higgledy		2006-01-23 03:20:28 PM

Wow, by my math I've wasted a perfectly good & viable 210 eggs. All this precious life just waiting to be fertilized and I've squandered them all. I should be punished.

TigerTigerBurningBright		2006-01-23 03:22:12 PM

Smarshmallow: assume that I stand corrected, and want to change my stance...I now believe that life begins when a fertilized egg is implanted in the uterine wall. How does that change the number of (non-outlier) abortions that I will allow? If a fertilized egg does not implant, that has nothing to do with human intervention. But once it has, I don't think human intervetion should stop it. Assume all my previous statments correctly modified to fit this new description.

WisforWhore		2006-01-23 03:23:07 PM

Do you guys all REALLY believe that states should be able to force women to carry fetuses to term?

Well that is a real possibility of Alito is confirmed. Why wait until it actually happens before we do something about it?

Even if it is just Alabama and Utah, do you really not give a crap about women and girls unfortunate enough to live there?

Most farkers wouldn't take civil rights violations seriously until they take away your right to eat cheese doodles in your underwear in your parents basement.

smeegle		2006-01-23 03:23:27 PM

Why not focus on making it so that abortions, while legal, are no longer necessary ? This is what drives me nuts... it seems like no one even cares to try that!

Now come on Felgraf, you know it ain't morally upright to be taslkin about birth control and handing out condoms.
tsk tsk
doark, stuff it ain't rightly.

Theobold Holsopple		2006-01-23 03:24:04 PM

You can't make an homme-lette without breaking a few eggs.

RedVogue24		2006-01-23 03:25:05 PM

DJNewStyle
So, even though I don't want children (that includes not wanting to be pregnant) and even though there are already plenty of children all over the world looking to be adopted, and even though the man I'm with ALSO doesn't want children, I should still have to carry the child to term and give it up for adoption just because we had to be a selfish married couple and go and have sex together.

Smarshmallow		2006-01-23 03:25:40 PM

TigerTigerBurningBright
Well, besides implanting, what's different about the cluster of eggs that has implanted from the one that hasn't? It's already divided a couple of times. What's your justification for claiming that that's when life begins? Because it's convenient for your "momentum" comparison? That's a pretty shallow argument.

YouSirAreAMaroon		2006-01-23 03:26:08 PM

danlpoon

I almost wish I wasn't on my way out the door, because I would love to have this debate, but unfortunately I must. While you're precedent is correct, precedent does not decide right or wrong. There are many bad, bad decisions on the books which continue to haunt us. Precedent is only mentioned when it suits one's opinions. Go ask Charles Schumer how important stare decisis is when talking about Brown v. Board.

TigerTigerBurningBright		2006-01-23 03:26:25 PM

RedVogue24: get your tubes tied RIGHT NOW.

DJNewStyle		2006-01-23 03:27:28 PM

First of all, I've never met a morbidly obese person who used liposuction as an excuse to eat more, but if it were totally safe, and it worked, then why shouldn't they use it?

You seem to be stuck in this mentality that if something used to be impossible but is now possible due to modern technology, then you're not "cheating" by doing it. If a pill came out tomorrow that would allow you to be in perfect shape without any exercise, and it had no ill consequences, then would you blame people for taking it?

If that pill comes along and you're out of shape - go ahead and take it. I have no issue with liposuction or gastric bypass. I used it as an example. There have been several TV specials where people were horribly overweight and it was threatening their life, but the big excuse was "well if it gets worse I'll just get the surgery" or "take stacker 2" rather than exercising and eating right.

Sure these new advances work - and if there were no side-effects they'd be great.. but ther fact that they do them without giving up the fast food (which was killing them) and without exercising clearly shows that they would rather take a sketchy short cut than a more difficult path which is gauranteed to get results.

The reason I compare abortion to these "sketchy shortcuts" is because there is more to it. You're preventing a human from being born, because that human's life would be an inconvenience to you.

The fact is that at this point in history, getting pregnant doesn't necessarily have to result in a baby, so having a baby is not a necessary consequence of getting pregnant.

That's true. Sometimes you're pregnant and you don't end up having a child.. but that should have nothing to do with abortion.

As it is now - I don't give a shiat if all of you have abortions every tuesday night as part of a family get-together - complete with farking clowns and ferris wheels. I will never approve of it for myself or anyone in my family.

Felgraf		2006-01-23 03:28:29 PM

smeegle
I admit, it also does boggle my mind that there are 'pro-life' people who are against anything but abstinence only education . It seems very.. retarded, to me.

TigerTigerBurningBright		2006-01-23 03:29:51 PM

Smarshmallow: fine, I revert to my original stance. Life begins at conception. It's a shame that some of those lives are lost when they do not implant into the uterine wall. But that has nothing to do with you, me, or the government. That non-implantation is the same as a miscarriage to me...a shame. Not as much of a shame, because the mother did not know about it, but still a shame. Doesn't affect the momentum arguement at all. Not one bit. The point is, if we're going to ensure that people are allowed to die only by accident and natural causes, then soon-to-be citizens should be afforded the same right. Not to be killed by human hand.

Felgraf		2006-01-23 03:32:56 PM

RedVogue24
*Blinks* But if neither of you want to have children, why not have your husband just get a vasectomy? (Far less invasive and dangerous than tube-tying operations).

vrax		2006-01-23 03:33:02 PM

TigerTigerBurningBright:

vrax, are you saying you can tell me exactly when a life becomes conscious of itself, and furthermore that you can kill it until that point?

Did you read my question? How would you know that you were never born? Is there an aborted fetus somewhere saying, "Shiat, foster care would have been better than this!"

We humans kill things all the time in the name of survival and convenience.

higgledy		2006-01-23 03:33:03 PM

Question TigerTiger :

Did you actually come up with this MOMENTUM OF THE SPERM idea on your own or did you read it somewhere? If so, please tell me where.

/hoping it's not a Christian Coalition sourse
//please

DJNewStyle		2006-01-23 03:33:22 PM

LocalCynic:

If you think that our society has grown soft and un-manly, whatever. But quit trumpeting the "personal responsibility" buzzword. It's meaningless. Absolutely meaningless.

responsibility Audio pronunciation of "responsibility" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-spns-bl-t)
n. pl. responsibilities

1. The state, quality, or fact of being responsible.
2. Something for which one is responsible; a duty, obligation, or burden.

..or a farking kid that you spawned as a result of being completely unable to abstain.

Don't want kids? VASECTOMY. HYSTERECTOMY. Oh.. Why not? You want kids sometime? THEN farkING WAIT.

higgledy		2006-01-23 03:33:57 PM

Typo: source

DJNewStyle		2006-01-23 03:36:56 PM

fuhfuhfuh: if you can't control your 14 year old daughter - get her a hysterectomy, pat her on the ass, and tell her to fark, suck, and fondle whatever she wants. Oh yeah and tell her to watch out for AIDS. Besides.. you said it yourself, she can't learn common sense. Why should she ever have kids?

higgledy		2006-01-23 03:37:25 PM

DJNewStyle

Hysterectomies are NOT I repeat NOT traditionally used as a form of birth control. I have no idea where you got THAT information--just wrong. Hysterectomies are usually the result of cancer or some other invasive cause as well as it also being an EXTREMELY invasive medical procedure. I hope you meant to reference getting ones tubes tied and that this was a faux pas on your part.

danlpoon		2006-01-23 03:38:18 PM

Go ask Charles Schumer how important stare decisis is when talking about Brown v. Board.

You said it's "Bad Law". As in, it's an illogical extension of the case law and Codes purporting to support it. Laws never go "bad". They just get further and further limited to their facts.

TigerTigerBurningBright		2006-01-23 03:39:00 PM

higgledy: came up with it myself. I'm actually surprised that I have not seen it before, because it makes a good amount of sense. Accidents happen. Natural causes happen. But without other people getting involved, you go on living. And so would a fetus. It would develop and be born all on its own. Thus remaining in motion. And, if you're going to cite me, it's the "MOMENTUM OF THE FERTILIZED EGG". Sperm ain't a person.

DJNewStyle		2006-01-23 03:39:45 PM

Yeah. I did mean get your tubes tied. Hysterectomy != Tubes tied. Ahh hell, get one of those too. Maybe they'll work you in for a combo-package deal.

Something_Witty_Here		2006-01-23 03:41:36 PM

2006-01-23 03:33:22 PM DJNewStyle
Don't want kids? VASECTOMY. HYSTERECTOMY. Oh.. Why not? You want kids sometime? THEN farkING WAIT.

I find it interesting that you equate a vasectomy with a hysterectomy.

Nothing else to add.

Free Radical		2006-01-23 03:42:22 PM

Lucky13: i do NOT believe in the original sin. period.

Then all babies aborted go to heaven.
I bet if you asked these babies whether or not they wanted a free trip to the pearly gates I would assume you'd get a resounding "Yes" as the answer.

Seems to me, abortion is the ultimate minor league for Angel creation.

LocalCynic		2006-01-23 03:42:54 PM

DJNewStyle

Don't want kids? VASECTOMY. HYSTERECTOMY. Oh.. Why not? You want kids sometime? THEN farkING WAIT.

So... tell me why getting the tubes cut and burned isn't "taking the easy way out?"

Again, "personal responsibility" is a meaningless buzzphrase. Just ditch it and explain what you really mean.

Something_Witty_Here		2006-01-23 03:43:22 PM

2006-01-23 03:37:25 PM higgledy
Hysterectomies are NOT I repeat NOT traditionally used as a form of birth control. I have no idea where you got THAT information--just wrong. Hysterectomies are usually the result of cancer or some other invasive cause as well as it also being an EXTREMELY invasive medical procedure. I hope you meant to reference getting ones tubes tied and that this was a faux pas on your part.

Or perhaps it shows the vast extent of his knowledge on the subject, and why he should not be the one making decisions about women's bodies.

higgledy		2006-01-23 03:43:48 PM

Well if you are claiming a fertilized egg is a person as your last post suggests, that is an entirely different debate. On that basis though, frozen embryos are in fact little people in a freezer? Uh...

And still no I disgree that other people are the only factor in the 'ending of life' scenario. Natural disasters for one....

Smarshmallow		2006-01-23 03:46:04 PM

TigerTigerBurningBright

Smarshmallow: fine, I revert to my original stance. Life begins at conception. It's a shame that some of those lives are lost when they do not implant into the uterine wall. But that has nothing to do with you, me, or the government. That non-implantation is the same as a miscarriage to me...a shame. Not as much of a shame, because the mother did not know about it, but still a shame. Doesn't affect the momentum arguement at all. Not one bit.

Um... yes, it does. Most fertilized eggs, if left on their own, will die. Your whole momentum argument was that momentum would carry the eggs to become full humans, but that's wrong, it will carry most of them to their death.

The point is, if we're going to ensure that people are allowed to die only by accident and natural causes, then soon-to-be citizens should be afforded the same right. Not to be killed by human hand.

Why should they? They're not citizens, they're soon-to-be-citizens. Why is a lump of cells with human DNA, but no heartbeat, no nervous system, and no ability to live on its own, more deserving of life than a fully developed cow?

higgledy		2006-01-23 03:47:31 PM

Something_Witty_Here

Agreed but the mere suggestion of having your reproductive organs REMOVED for the purpose of birth control is just asinine. For the record, I'm pro-choice and I'm all for birth control, etc. but that remark was just SO ill-informed.

TigerTigerBurningBright		2006-01-23 03:48:41 PM

higgledy
ok, for the what seems like the millionth time: natural disasters can kill you. other natural disasters could kill a fetus. if you were pregnant, it might even be the same one.

BUT

there's not much you can do about that. and probability says that won't happen today anyway. so without human intervention, probability says you'll live to reply to this post. i understand that we can't do anything about lightning or miscarriages. what i am saying is: once an egg is fertilized and has implanted into the uterine wall, LEAVE IT THE FARK ALONE. if it miscarries: shame. if the mother gets drowned in a flood: very much a shame. if it gets aborted: should be illegal.

Smarshmallow		2006-01-23 03:48:54 PM

TigerTigerBurningBright

higgledy: came up with it myself. I'm actually surprised that I have not seen it before, because it makes a good amount of sense.

No, it doesn't, not at all. Newton's first law dealt with objects moving through space. If you push a ball in an environment with no other forces acting on it, it will continue indefinitely. If you fertilize an egg, it will, most likely, die. Furthermore, it requires forces to act upon it to survive, from its mother.

Bobby Gorilla		2006-01-23 03:50:32 PM

Lollipop165:Because no one can say for certain that a fetus has a right to life, it is a moral choice and therefore should lay with the private person.

You'd risk killing an innocent person because you "can't say for certain?"

As I said in my original post, I'm pro-abortion. I agree with your conclusion as a matter of what I consider the "greater good." But the reasoning of many pro-choicers doesn't sit well with me.

It's not just about choice. It isn't just about the Government and the Individual. There is a potential third party involved - the fetus - and the people (as a majority) are eminently qualified to determine if this third party needs to be protected.

If the majority of the people believe a fetus should be protected, I shouldn't be allowed to kill it - regardless of my own moral choice.

Even if I don't believe in property rights, I am still not entitled to take from people who do.

Felgraf		2006-01-23 03:52:20 PM

Smarshmallow
Ah, but where do you draw the line, and what do you use to decide? Self-awareness? I've seen arguments that babies don't really become self-aware until two years or so. Cognitive ability? And depending on what standard you use to judge, what prevents us from applying it to living adults? For instance, if we, say, use Cognitive ability as the standard, then couldn't I argue that I am 'more human' than, say, a person with brain damage?

I ask this seriously, as I think this is a very important issue that should be given a large ammount of thought. I'm a big fan of the Socratic mtehod.

TigerTigerBurningBright		2006-01-23 03:53:42 PM

Smarshmallow

Because that lump of cells could have turned out to be you. And if it didn't, then what would I have to do with myself on a monday afternoon? Look, your mother wasn't a cow, but she was pro-life, at least in your case. So enjoy your steak and leave the next generation of Farkers alone...

Captain Fashion		2006-01-23 03:53:44 PM

To all the anti-abortion people: why do you care? Honestly, how does abortion being legal prevent you from living your life?

Unless you can come up with a good answer, you're no different from any of the fundamentalists in the Middle East trying to force their beliefs on everyone else.

higgledy		2006-01-23 03:55:42 PM

The application of your 'momentum' idea just doesn't make any sense. Equating the result of procreation to propulsion/inertia just isn't reasonable.

Your thinly veiled 'scientific' logic seems to have gone to the wayside and the religious overtones should be arriving shortly. Are you making a suggestion with your flooding reference?

TigerTigerBurningBright		2006-01-23 03:57:38 PM

Captain Fashion

I'm going to get cancer, it's programmed into my genes. I'm going to die before my grandchildren are born. And the next genius with the right amount of creativity and scientific ability to cure cancer is walking into an abortion clinic with her mother right now. And now she's sitting in the chair. And now she's dead. And before the next one is born, I will die of cancer. It's an extreme case, but I think you have enough creativity and scientific ability to at least get the point.

DJNewStyle		2006-01-23 03:58:21 PM

LocalCynic:

You and DumbAssMonkey are the only people using the phrase "personal responsibility".

Quick Browser lesson: ALT+F -> Type personal responsibility -> click 'Find'

mysha		2006-01-23 03:59:21 PM

For those who say it's in the books due to numerous previous decisions, what about the "Brown-v-Board of Education" Supreme Court decision on segregated education; or, more recently, the 2003 Lawrence-v-Texas sodomy ruling?

Both ruling overturned previous decisions and laws; why couldn't Roe-v-Wade also be overturned?

sofla39		2006-01-23 03:59:38 PM

Republicans want Roe v. Wade overturned by activist judges. (Hypocrisy) Republicans want all abortions banned, no exceptions, even if the mother dies. (Narrow-minded) Republicans want all forms of birth control banned. Abstinence only for everyone. Sex only for procreation. (This from the party that claims to be for less government)

Republicans suck green donkey male specific body parts!!!!!

rob.d		2006-01-23 04:00:14 PM

I'm not sure about how it is managed down south, but one would think that the process to have an abortion honestly works towards NOT having an abortion (ie: working with the woman to confirm that having an abortion is in fact the solution) and having an abortion is not actually the 100% outcome.

Has anyone here actually been through this process or are we all making stuff up?

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