Crackhead Ben
I guess he's better than the idiot who traded your star prospect SS for Mike Lowell, then got rid of Mueller, let Damon walk, and almost traded Manny.

a) They didn't trade the star prospect SS for Mike Lowell. They traded him (and three other minor league pitchers) for Josh Beckett, Guillermo Mota, AND Mike Lowell. That would be a front-line starter (and World Series MVP), a top setup man, and a Gold-Glove 3B. If you think the move was wrong in its entirety, fine, but don't change the facts just to support your argument.

b) Bill Mueller -- as much as I love him -- is getting older and more expensive (don't forget his knee problems), while the Sox have had Kevin Youkilis primed and ready for not one, but two years. On top of that, they trade for Lowell, a gold glover, AND the top 3B prospect in all of baseball in Andy Marte. I don't see a place for Bill Mueller here, do you?

c) While losing Damon hurts, he just isn't worth the money New York is paying him in the long run. Yes, he'll probably produce next year, and maybe will be impressive in 2007 as well. But by the end of that deal, he will be the 2005 version of Bernie Williams. The Sox thought it best to move in another direction, and I don't blame them. If the money they didn't spend on Damon is used to lock up Josh Beckett long-term, Boston comes out ahead here IMO.

d) "Almost traded Manny"? Is that like being a little bit dead? They either traded him or they didn't; fault them for not doing it if you think they should have, but you can't criticize them for "almost" doing something you disagree with. Besides, they were never going to trade him without getting value in return. And since there aren't any comparable players on the block, Manny stays. Again, it makes perfect sense.

/TheBigPapi welcomes Theo home

Honestly, I see Damon moving to RF and making way for either a CF signing next year

Not with that throwing arm. Even with Yankee Stadium's short right field.

Yes, and there are so many quality players to choose from on the market. And unless they're trading Papelbon they won't get a team to part with a good player.

Now that the Red Sox have a surplus of chips to trade, who says they won't do that very thing? That's how it works, right?


They don't even have a good CF or SS prospect to try and place into that spot. I'm sure they'll find someone though.

That's true. But now they have a better infield prospect than the one they traded (Marte versus Hanley Ramirez) and tons of pitching prospects to trade. What's the differnce, as long as you get the players you need, which remains to be seen.

Yeah, and there's nothing saying that he won't get bumped to RF after Sheff is gone next year.

If that happens, you are WAY overpaying for him. He doesn't hit for power, so much of his value is based on his on-base ability and his defense. So, you're saying that his defense will no longer be good enough for CF starting next year? If the Yankees thought that, they wouldn't have signed him.


Damon was fine for Sox fans in CF until he became a Yankee, no he's aging and not worth it, just like Pedro right?

So, just because he was good for us, we have to overpay for him on the hopes that he will defy nature and not regress. That's a pretty stupid theory, but I guess that's the Yankee way.

By the way, you are aware that Pedro had to shut it down at the end of the year (in which he was terrific), right? Good thing he wasn't on the Sox - doesn't do you much good in the playoffs if you have to shut it down every September.

Sox fans have no loyalty.

Why do you say that?

Crackhead Ben
there's nothing saying that he won't get bumped to RF after Sheff is gone next year.

Last time I checked, you still needed to be able to throw to play RF. Vlad Guerrero, Ichiro, and Rocco Baldelli all have great -- not okay, not good, but GREAT -- arms. If you put Johnny Damon in right field three years from now, the Yankees will give up more doubles and triples than any team in baseball.

Crackhead Ben: El Duque only made maybe 1-3mill for the Yanks, which in baseball is NOTHING. And let's not forget his postseason pitching which saved the Yankees countless numbers of times. 1999 ALCS?

El Duque's salary history. His contract was a Randy Levine special - heavily backloaded, like Giambi's and Mussina's.

I agree, Duque was absolutely huge in big games in his first stint with the Yankees.

Contreras made like 5mill his first year with the Yankees, and the team never gave him a chance, look how big he came up for the White Sox this year.

I think that Contreras' struggles can be blamed on Ed Whitson syndrome. While I think that Mel Stottlemyre ruined a fair portion of the veteran pitchers that the Yankees acquired, some seemed like they melted down in New York. Contreras is an example, as are Jeff Weaver and Kenny Rogers.

TheBigPapi: If you think the move was wrong in its entirety, fine, but don't change the facts just to support your argument.

Lowell isn't the player he used to be. Mota is eh, and Beckett is more injury prone than even Yankee pitchers.

But by the end of that deal, he will be the 2005 version of Bernie Williams. The Sox thought it best to move in another direction, and I don't blame them. If the money they didn't spend on Damon is used to lock up Josh Beckett long-term, Boston comes out ahead here IMO.

Yeah, I love how all these Red Sox fans are coming out NOW and telling us how Damon is going to just suck in 2 years. He's not only going to be bad, he's going to be AWFUL. There's no basis for that claim. He hasn't shown to be injury prone or really slowing down. Age happens, but plenty of guys play CF into their late 30's (Finley?). I'm not convinced that Damon is going to fall off. It could happen, but you know, Ortiz could break his arm next season and never play again, shiat happens. Meanwhile signing Beckett long term, I'd say no way in hell unless he can finally get a few seasons over 200 IP. He's a good pitcher, when he's healthy and not getting blisters. And they lost Damon over 2million/4years they let him go over a difference of 8 million. In baseball, we all know that's a drop in the bucket.

somms: Not with that throwing arm. Even with Yankee Stadium's short right field.

And his throwing arm makes him better in CF? If he slows down as much as people think he's going to (which I'm still not convinced of ) RF will work out a lot better for him. He's also played it at some point in KC I think.

What I never got about the Yankees is, why does anyone think it's such an amazing achievement if they win a World Series?

The Red Sox spend a ton of money on players - more than every team in baseball...except one.

That team, of course, is the Yankees, and they spend TWICE AS MUCH as the Red Sox.

So, when you spend $200 million on players, and your most hated rival spends half that, shouldn't you win?

In other words, why isn't it a huge story that the Yankees spend all this money, but lose every year anyway?

crackhead

And his throwing arm makes him better in CF?

So, you agree then - it was a stupid signing.

Glad we cleared that up.

Crackhead Ben: If he slows down as much as people think he's going to (which I'm still not convinced of ) RF will work out a lot better for him. He's also played it at some point in KC I think.

He's played a total of 146 games (of 1555 career) in RF, all but 5 with the Royals. He hasn't played there at all since 2001, and no more than 5 games there in a season since 1998.

It would be more likely that he'd move to LF. Matsui (who doesn't exactly have a cannon himself) would be a better RF than Damon, though it's more likely that they'll go out and get a RF, since there's nobody in their system that projects as a starter at that position by 2007.

His throwing arm is a liability in CF, but a strong arm there is a plus, not a necessity.

Theo Epstein is the first gm in Red Sox history to have his team make the playoffs three years in a row. That may not be a big accomplishment, but it's better than any other gm the Red Sox have ever had.

Throughout their entire history the Red Sox have had crappy GMs. We're talking about guys who passed up chances to sign willie mays and jackie robinson. Guys who let Roger Clemens walk. Guys who sold Babe Ruth (ok that was the owner, but still. did they even have gm's back then?) Yes, he's made some mistakes, but he has also made some brilliant moves that made up for it. Under Theo Epstein, the farm system has flourished. Before he came along, I could have named one guy in the minors. I could now easily name 10 promising prospects. The point is, Theo's talent as a GM is up for debate, but the results he has gotten are undisputable. You can't argue with three playoff appearances and a world series title in three years. As a Red Sox fan who is aware of the woeful inadequacies of previous GM's, I am extremely happy to see Theo back. He may be the best GM the Red Sox have ever had. That isn't saying much, but I don't think we've seen the best of him yet.

TheBigPapi: Last time I checked, you still needed to be able to throw to play RF. Vlad Guerrero, Ichiro, and Rocco Baldelli all have great -- not okay, not good, but GREAT -- arms. If you put Johnny Damon in right field three years from now, the Yankees will give up more doubles and triples than any team in baseball.

Mmhmm, because those guys have done so much for the Mariners and D-Rays, A strong arm helps, but that helps any fielding position. Plenty of teams have an average RFer, and Damon's arm in right is no worse than his arm in center.

Brad_Will: El Duque's salary history. His contract was a Randy Levine special - heavily backloaded, like Giambi's and Mussina's.

Still, 4 million isn't "extremely overpaid" all things considered.

priestrape: What I never got about the Yankees is, why does anyone think it's such an amazing achievement if they win a World Series?

It's a pretty big deal.

That team, of course, is the Yankees, and they spend TWICE AS MUCH as the Red Sox.

Not quite twice as much, but a good 50million more.

So, when you spend $200 million on players, and your most hated rival spends half that, shouldn't you win?

Money =/= championships, k thx, bye.

In other words, why isn't it a huge story that the Yankees spend all this money, but lose every year anyway?

It is.

So, you agree then - it was a stupid signing.

Stupid, nah. He fills a great spot as a leadoff hitter, and his arm is good enough to get the job done in the outfield. Everyone all of a sudden makes it sound like he's walking around with a cane and has a paralyzed arm. Plenty of teams have won the world series without a cannon arm in the outfield.

Brad_Will: It would be more likely that he'd move to LF. Matsui (who doesn't exactly have a cannon himself) would be a better RF than Damon, though it's more likely that they'll go out and get a RF, since there's nobody in their system that projects as a starter at that position by 2007.

You're not thinking Yankee Stadium, LF is almost as big as CF. You put the weakest arm or slowest outfielder in RF. Yankee Stadium's RF made Paul O'Neil and Sheffield look good.

Wardo: You can't argue with three playoff appearances and a world series title in three years.

What did Theo really do? Ortiz, Manny, Damon, Pedro were already there. He traded Nomar, brought in Schilling and Foulke. Those were all great moves. But don't forget the Renteria blunder either. If you're gonna call Theo great for 3 playoff appearances and a WS title. Then what is Cashman with 9 Playoff appearances and 3 WS titles (in 9 years)?


Anyway, yeah, Damon held the Red Sox by the balls and went to the Yankees. But he knew there was no other good CFers on the market, and he knew the Red Sox had nobody in the minors to replace him. He knew his worth. Red Sox fans are betting that age will hit Damon like a rock, and Yankee fans are betting that it'll only slow him down a step. Hell guys like Lofton and Finley stayed in CF in their late 30's early 40's. Nothing says Damon will have the same decline as Bernie Williams. It's a possibility, but it's just as possible that he doesn't. Not all players drastically decline after age 32.

/alright folks, back to work for me.
//BoSox fans can enjoy watching the Yankees in the playoffs while the Sox are eliminated in mid-August.

pmuse
I work for the Red Sox.

are you kelly-the-ball-girl??

/would hit it

HaywoodJablonski

6) Getting rid of Pedro was probably a good move, as he's past his prime and injury prone. Don't worry, he'll be a Yankee soon enough.

Please see Red Sox fan comments on Clemens, circa 1996. Its been 12 years since you all declared that he was washed up.

2005 MLB Team Payrolls

Based Upon 2005 Season as of April 7, 2005

Rank Team Total Payroll
1 New York Yankees $208,306,817
2 Boston Red Sox $123,505,125


You're right - it's not double. But it ain't $50MM either

Actually, David Ortiz was perhaps Theo's most brilliant move of all. Ortiz was signed by Red Sox as a free agent on 1/22/03. Theo became GM the month before, December of 2002.

As I said, we could argue about his GM talents all day, and maybe neither of us could prove the other wrong. But I do know for sure that I am happy with the results he has gotten.

I wasn't trying to diss Brian Cashman. Despite his ginormous payroll, he may have the hardest GM job in baseball, having to deal with steinbrenner. And I would say 9 playoff appearances and 3 WS titles in 9 years is a wonderful achievement. Fans of any team would be ecstatic to see those kind of results (except maybe Yankees fans).

I just meant to point out that Red Sox fans should be pleased to see Theo's return, as he is perhaps the best GM the Red Sox have ever had (not that Epstein is the best GM ever, but as far as the Red Sox are concerned...)

Yes, Renteria was a mistake. Who would have imagined that one of the best defensive shortstops in the game would make 30 errors??? But for every personnel mistake the Red Sox have made in the last three years, I could name two that the Yankees have made (perhaps more because of Steinbrenner than Cashman).

I for one, am very pleased to see Theo Epstein return.

/thinks the improvement of the farm system is one of Theo's best achievements
//now if only they would give a rookie a chance once in a while

Crackhead Ben: //BoSox fans can enjoy watching the Yankees in the playoffs while the Sox are eliminated in mid-August.

*looks back at past few years*

I fail to see where you can make the assumption that the Yankees will be far and away better than the Yankees.

Yes, that's right. Far and away better than themselves

*sigh*

*leaves thread*

priestrape: What I never got about the Yankees is, why does anyone think it's such an amazing achievement if they win a World Series?

The Red Sox spend a ton of money on players - more than every team in baseball...except one.

That team, of course, is the Yankees, and they spend TWICE AS MUCH as the Red Sox.

So, when you spend $200 million on players, and your most hated rival spends half that, shouldn't you win?

In other words, why isn't it a huge story that the Yankees spend all this money, but lose every year anyway?

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm a Red Sox fan with a respect for the Yankees (and their fans, but only the Yankees fans with respect for the Red Sox). I read an interesting statistic the other day: Did you know the Yankees are spending so much, that their luxury tax is greater than the payroll of some MLB teams? And who won the World Series last year? The year before that? And the year before that? And the year before that? And the year before that?

I'm sorry, but Yankees fans must admit that something is going wrong when you have a luxury tax (a fine, in all respects) bigger than the payroll of some teams.

Now, back on topic, I'm not sure how I feel about Epstein re-joining the Sox. I want to see what he does before I post my position on the matter.

Crackhead Ben: Yeah, and there's nothing saying that he won't get bumped to RF after Sheff is gone next year. And there's nothing that says he'll have the same drastic dropoff like Bernie Williams.

Moran. Damon ONLY has value if he can play in CF. Even then he's one of the most overrated players out there. If he was fugly with short hair and played on the Devil Rays nobody would know his name.

Just look at his career stats. (pops) He has a league average career OPS and his best ever was 117. Oh wow, what a threat. He doesn't have the arm to play RF and a LF with a league average OPS getting paid over $10M/yr is dead weight.

The once rich farm system. Yeah... Brad Halsey did so well in Arizona. He didn't win a ROY but he had a solid season. He ended up with a league average ERA and he's only 24. He got about 317k. Mussina was barely better, but got paid $19 million.

He may have been ordered to get Randy Johnson but the fact is, NY got bent over in that trade (by one of the dumbest GM's in baseball). Don't forget they also sent Navarro, Vazquez (who was recently traded for one of the White Sox's top three prospects), and $10 million.

It takes no skill whatsoever to pick up ARod and other superstars. All it takes is money. A good GM is the one who goes out and finds talent where others don't see it.

Question: what's with Randy Johnson? I've come across a number of discussions in which he is totally left out of the picture. He's still fairly dominant, no?

Sox fans need to drop the payroll attacks on the Yankees though. It's just jealousy. Their payroll shows that if their owner had GS's money it would be just as high.

I truly wanted to see the Red Sox win the WS but now that they did they are just team that throws money at players.

We've come a long way since Hallowe'en in Newton.

manimalia: Question: what's with Randy Johnson? I've come across a number of discussions in which he is totally left out of the picture. He's still fairly dominant, no?

Randy Johnson DEFINITELY still has it. He had a down year but he was still much better than league average. Unfoutunatly for him, he was so great in AZ that he'll never be able to live up to that again.

btw, since Pedro has been brought up here, did you guys knwo that if you adjust for the park and league, Pedro has the best career ERA EVER?

I simply do not understand how Stottlemyre still has his job. The number of talented, if greying, acquisitions that the Yankees have made who go on to "crack under the pressure" of playing in NY is astounding. Pitchers seem to devolve under his guidance...

This one is for the moran who submitted this one.

Eirias: I simply do not understand how Stottlemyre still has his job. The number of talented, if greying, acquisitions that the Yankees have made who go on to "crack under the pressure" of playing in NY is astounding. Pitchers seem to devolve under his guidance...

I agree that Mel is to blame for more pitcher regressions than he gets "credit" for, but he is no longer the pitching coach. Mercifully, he retired.

Crackhead Ben: You're not thinking Yankee Stadium, LF is almost as big as CF. You put the weakest arm or slowest outfielder in RF. Yankee Stadium's RF made Paul O'Neil and Sheffield look good.

But if you have a guy with Damon's arm in RF - even a relatively small one like in Yankee Stadium - you might as well remove second base altogether, because everybody's going to go from first to third on him more easily than they do on Paris Hilton.

Crackhead Ben: //BoSox fans can enjoy watching the Yankees in the playoffs while the Sox are eliminated in mid-August.

---

Comments like this from Yankee fans are why baseball can be satisfying even for those whose teams aren't contenders.

how do you prove an opinion
/have you been stuffing your face with retarted-O's again?

The way semi-literate people have been doing it for centuries, you provide several bits of information that lead one to draw the conclusion that they choose to opine.

Believing that it is not necessary to support an opinion is the surest way to increase the ridicule (and deservedly so) that a poorly formed or completely wrong hypothesis will draw.

They don't even have a good CF or SS prospect to try and place into that spot. I'm sure they'll find someone though.

The have several good prospects in the farm. Top prospect Pedroia might get a look at shortstop in Boston this season. If nothing changes then Alex Cora will probably be the starting shortstop.

And with two pitchers they want to move -- Wells and Clement -- the Sox should be able to get a decent center fielder in trade.

H31N0US

*sigh* oh boy, another reason for Boston fans to expose themselves as the bitter know it alls that they are.

Your team is done, will not even be in the division race this year. You'll be chasing the Yankees and Jays by June, and mathmatically eliminated by mid-August.

You again?

I would absolutely f*cking love for you to explain to us just how we're going to be "done" by mid-August.

Spring f*cking training hasn't even started, and H31N0US says we're already done because we have a whole TWO positions to left to fill.

Well, sh*t.

May as well not even follow any games this year or buy the MLB radio package. Pitchers and catchers don't report for another month, but our season is already over. They're, they're just not as good as the Yankees. Ortiz is washed up, has lost all of his power and will never, ever have another clutch hit in the history of humankind because he doesn't have Gary Sheffroid's bat wiggle. Manny's going to sit in the dugout with his arms crossed, pouting, refusing to to hit anymore homeruns until the John Henry personally brings him a bowl of chocolate ice cream with rainbow sprinkles before every game. Beckett's blister has mutated into a form of alien gangreene from Jupiter and had all of his fingers amputated. Alex Cora couldn't field a beachball if his hands were dipped in crazy-glue. Papelbon had his arm chewed off by rabid lemurs on his Honeymoon and isn't even fit to sell beer on Yawkey way. Hansen is a New York native and his DNA won't allow him to pitch well in a Boston uniform. Schilling can't pitch because the old-folks home won't give him permission to leave the dining room until he finishes his metamucil.

They may as well not even open Fenway this year or even field a team. Just fold up the jerseys, pack up the equipment, burn all the contracts, and sell the team to a crack-addict passed out in a Bronx gutter, clothed in dirty rags, soaked in his own week-old piss and vomit.

Do you even posses the psychological capacity to not generalize all fans of sports teams you don't like or actually back up your ridiculous assertions with any kind of substance or rational thought? Or are you content with your existance of just being a useless troll?

Damon will be a great asset to the Yankees as a leadoff hitter, baserunner, clubhouse guy. He's a lot of fun to watch; he plays hard every day. We will definitely miss him in Boston. But the Yanks better move him to a corner quickly, unless they like the sight of first-to-third advances on every bloop to center.

Way too early to call the season -- what are you, stoopid? -- but the Damon deal will be worthwhile to NY for the first two years, just like Pedro. It's those expensive last couple that will be the biatch.