30 CFR 77.1110
Examination and maintenance of firefighting equipment.

Firefighting equipment shall be continuously maintained in a usable and operative condition. Fire extinguishers shall be examined at least once every 6 months and the date of such examination shall be recorded on a permanent tag attached to the extinguisher

30 CFR 77.205
Travelways at surface installations.

(a) Safe means of access shall be provided and maintained to all working places.
(b) Travelways and platforms or other means of access to areas where persons are required to travel or work, shall be kept clear of all extraneous material and other stumbling or slipping hazards.
(c) Inclined travelways shall be constructed of nonskid material or equipped with cleats.
(d) Regularly used travelways shall be sanded, salted, or cleared of snow and ice as soon as practicable.
(e) Crossovers, elevated walkways, elevated ramps, and stairways shall be of substantial construction, provided with handrails, and maintained in good condition. Where necessary toeboards shall be provided.
(f) Crossovers shall be provided where it is necessary to cross conveyors.
(g) Moving conveyors shall be crossed only at designated crossover points.

This sort of violation is typical throughout the industry. There waas one violation in regards to the ventilation plan for the mine. The fine amount suggests (and the exact violation is not noted on the website at MSHA) a paperwork violation as it relates to the 'plan' and not ventilation structures or procedures underground.

Of course I could be wrong. All I have to base my remarks on is my family still in WV that are all coal miners, the work I have done underground before I left the industry and my mining engineering degree with emphasis on coal. I guess maybe you're the expert since I seem to disagree with you.

Seems like poor ventilation combined with sparky electrical machinery just might be bad things to have going on in a mine.


You actually are probably closer to being correct than you might realize. Did you take into account that the mine had been idle for a while? Did you take into account that the first body they recovered was reported to be the Fire Boss. No crews are allowed underground until the Fire Boss returns to the surface, but the crews were underground at the same time? 99% of all mine casualties are caused by the victim. Not talking about an explosion per se, but injuries are most often cause by personal negligence and that is why the fines to personel are very sharp. If the crew went underground before the Fire Boss returned, that would place the blame on the miners. Any comments from you or me or any more expeert officials is pure speculation until the investigation is complete.

Let's run a " I am a hateful jerk" tally, shall we alidade


1.To most of you elitist liberal know-it-all snobs
There's a clue there somewhere.

2.Skleenar, cargrrl, smeagle
You talkin ta me?


3.Don't worry about facts going against your partisan and personal hatred for Bush get in your way. Keep spouting those "evil white male homophobe republican" talking points.
Wow did I say any of those things? No i don't think so.

4.And finally did any of youerudite scholars actually the regulatory laws that were broken (violations cited)? I doubt it.
Hmm once again, pidgeon holed from afar.


5.But please continue on with your 'sexual intellectualism".
My favorite one of all. Who did you learn that from, Rush Limbaugh?
So WTF is 'sexual intellectualism anyway? Is that like having a smart vagina?
What?

6. (Phukking Know-it-alls)

You are just a real sport aren't you? Good grief buddy take a pill.

Hang On Voltaire is from the south, cut him some slack.

I am sure he feels it was god's will and not any god fearing politicians responsibility.

And uh....GO TIDE!

Hang On Voltaire : Bushco and his greedy friends cut Mining regulations to line the pockets of mining executives
Because of these cuts this accident happened. Am I correct so far?

No. No-one, as far as I'm aware, has made that syllogism, since there is never a straightforward causal relationship. Therefore, your argument is basically a strawman.

Here's the syllogism : lowering the minimum standards of safety will result in more accidents.

Now, do you agree or disagree with that?

The media killed these miners. The media should be tried and executed for their crimes!

Partially why I gave up being a Southern Baptist.

"They's alive".... Praise Jesus, how great thou art.

"They's dead"... it's the Lords will, now they's in heaven.

What's sad about this is the only thing most of these families own is their faith, and now that has been challenged.

If there is an omnipotent god I say fark you for creating this and creating the Middle East.

::applause for Smeegle::

/i have to steal "sexual intellectualism" for something at some point. that is some funny shiat!

jules_siegel

Jules-- whoever wrote that Koz-linked editorial is another asshat. For one thing, OSHA does not govern mining operations, MSHA does. Second, MSHA does not give any warning prior to inspections. I work for a mining company (not coal, not underground, and thankfully not in WV) and these guys show up with zero notice, not 24-hr notice. I would think every coal mining company gets a lot of citations, and I think I'd rather see that than no citations. Most citations are very minor, which tells me the inspectors pay attention to detail. If a company didnt have any citations, I would highly doubt the inspectors were doing their job. In every workplace safety hazards can be found, just as in every home safety hazards can be found. Now, THAT being said, 168 citations in a year or whatever it was sounds like an awful lot to me!

To whoever wrote earlier about needing to automate mining, it is already EXTREMELY automated. US Coal mining is about the most automated form of mining in the world. If you want to see lack of automation, go to china, where they kill around 6,000 coal miners per year.

Don't read this as me defending the coal company. Safety is an element of a company's culture. Where I work, we have gone something like 10 years without a lost-time accident. If you read through the "fatalgrams" on msha.gov (which are the 1-page bulletins issued after fatalities summarizing what happened and how to prevent it's re-occurrence), you will see that the majority of the time someone is killed in a mining accident, they did something stupid that they aren't supposed to do. Common sense things like walking under un-supported roof underground, or working on a piece of high-voltage equipment without de-energizing it and locking it out so it can't be started by someone else who doesn't know you are working on it (For instance, someone is standing in front of a mining machine repairing something and someone else comes up and starts the thing and chews them to shreds because they didn't communicate and they didn't disable the machine so no one could do that). This kind of shiat happens all the time.

Other fatal accidents, this one probably included, are the result of a chain of events- a sequence of failures, like the Challenger disaster was. In situations like that, you can point blame every which way and there's probably a lot of people who deserve some part of the blame.

This, just as every major accident, will have a thorough investigation, and the blame will fall where it should. Until that happens, let's save the "evil mining company asshats" and "stupid hillbilly miners knew what they were getting into" judgements. It's blissfully ignorant to think it's that simple.

/no "I'm really getting a kick out of all these" comment because I'm not
//I would never work for a coal company

gwowen
No. No-one, as far as I'm aware, has made that syllogism, since there is never a straightforward causal relationship. Therefore, your argument is basically a strawman.
Here's the syllogism : lowering the minimum standards of safety will result in more accidents.
Now, do you agree or disagree with that?

Now this is a good question. What are "minimum standards"?

/New Yorkers and Canadians will recognize this guy.

I'm with Traxis on this one.

People die every day, all over the world, some even in coal mines. So why is THIS one NATIONAL news? Are there any Senators or foreign heads of state trapped in the mine?

I find it infuriating that the mining officials seem to think they could not clear up the rumor until they had solid facts. That they knew there weren't 12 alive -- or that they didn't yet know that ANY were alive -- WAS a fact. It is enough to say "the report of twelve survivors is premature." Go ahead and leave it at that. Does it "add to the confusion"? Perhaps. But it also lets the families know that they shouldn't be celebrating just yet. If it turns out that there really were twelve survivors, great. If it turns out there were only six, that's good too. And if it turns out there was only one or even none, then at least the families were prepared for that. But to let families celebrate false information for THREE HOURS is unforgiveable.

Does the media share any of the blame? Yes. The media needs to learn how to evaluate information. Certainly when a mining company official says survivors have been found, of course that sounds like good information. But how about some followup questions? Has the official seen the survivors? Who said there were survivors? Can just ONE reporter be taken to where the survivors are?

Well when a dozen people are trapped underground and all die before they can be rescued, I'd hate to think that that wouldn't be a national tragedy.

Death sucks.

Remember when every one in the US was freaked out about the 528 miners killed in China?

China Prosecutes 96 for Coal Mine Deaths

BEIJING, Dec. 23, 2005
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --

(AP) China has dismissed two provincial deputy governors and prosecuted 96 officials blamed for six high-profile coal mine accidents that killed a total of 528 people over the past 13 months, the government announced Friday.

All six disasters were blamed on managers who failed to follow safety rules, sometimes with official collusion, the country's top industrial and mine safety officials said at a news conference.

The communist government has tried without success in recent years to reduce the carnage in China's coal mines, where more than 5,000 people are killed annually in fires and other disasters.

In the six biggest mine disasters since November 2004, investigators concluded that local and provincial officials failed to enforce safety rules or colluded with mine bosses, said Li Yizhong, the director of China's industrial safety agency.

"We hope that all coal mines will learn from the bitter lessons these accidents have taught and will strengthen their safety precautions," Li said.

Aside from coal mines, China's fatality rate from other industrial accidents was falling, Li said.

The deputy governors of Shaanxi province in the northwest and Guangdong in southern China were dismissed after being found partially responsible for mine accidents, according to Chen Changzhi, deputy minister of the Ministry of Supervision.

In addition, 96 officials were prosecuted and 126 other officials were demoted or fired, Li and the other officials announced.

They did not give any details of what charges the officials faced, how many were convicted or what penalties they might face.



MMV The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

HOV - way to dodge Gwowen's question.

I would like to interrupt this flamewar and remind everyone that 12 men died. This is a terrible thing, and I would like to offer my condolances to everyone involved.

deadspace

HOV - way to dodge Gwowen's question.

That's a favorite conservative tactic: ask questions instead of giving answers. Generally when you're too spineless to stand for anything, it's easier to stand for nothing.

dittybopper: I don't know why you people expected a better outcome. After all, this happened in Tallmansville.

That'll be 25 dollars for the keyboard, DITTYBOPPER.

Now this is a good question. What is "spineless"?

Don't blame the news, blame yourselves for creating a mistake-prone system with all your "I wanna know NOW!" endless constant demanding whining.

maybe some of the company-hating idiots out there realize by now that the "company" didn't give out the info - it was rescue team miscommunication.

having said all that, the company may well be at fault in this disaster - we'll have to see.

coal is a dirty nasty energy source, that is for sure.

poor miners. damnit.

Live feed, they're bringing out the lone survivor now:

maritime girl
If someone dies in a car accident, it doesn't make that person more worthy of being mourned than someone who dies in their sleep.

the key word in your statment is "worthy", of which i agree. but you can't deny the scope of mourning is wider for some than others, and thus (possibly) misconstrued as worthiness. ask princess di, perhaps

LocalCycic - i wouldnt say its solely a conservative tactic. its just the tactic of someone who has come up against something they cant easily argue.

/dont ever fool yourself into thinking that stall tactics are a partisan game played only by your opposition
//agrees that he sees it most often from them, tho

jcclab

Now this is a good question. What is "spineless"?

This should be the new Fark cliche...

It is so predictable that some how some way some stupid farking liberal idot would balme the deaths on G.W.B. Hey guess what? I blame G.W.B for my hemoriods. Yes, when it doubt blame G.W.B., what a good life lesson.

Given that the saving of 12 people was heralded as God's miracle, one must now ask, why did God hate these 12 people?

ctenidae
That's some pretty damning stuff you've cited there. It goes a long way to addressing the "mining is dangerous" argument. Yes, mining is dangerous but we have rules in place to make it safer and this mining company regularly broke those rules.

jcclab - sure, that was awful. We can't hear about everything that happens all of the time, but we can mourn the dead in our own country as much as we possibly can bear. The argument against it is the argument to cheapen life even further than it already is, in my opinion.

I know we can't sit around obsessing over every life lost everywhere, but in this case it's less about the deaths and more about the long wait for rescue that made it 24 hours' worth of news.

2006-01-04 10:09:07 AM MBooda

Live feed, they're bringing out the lone survivor now:

Man, you are SO going to Hell.

This is horrible. Where is Sting when you need him?

dittybopper: elendilmir

That'll be 25 dollars for the keyboard, DITTYBOPPER.

Just doing my bit to keep the economy rolling.

I still can't believe that after a bazillion posts in at least 2 threads that made it to the main page, I'm the only one who made that connection...

You were still the first. . . . . . BOOOOOOYYYYYYY! I've been looking for a pic from Phantasm II where they are standing in an . .escavated graveyard to no avail.

I blame the Molly MacGuires.

interesting bit from the other thread before the bad news even broke:

2006-01-04 01:47:39 AM C4shm0ney

Anyone think it odd they haven't brought them out yet? It's starting to sound kind of phishy at this point.

jcclab
What is "spineless"?

A worm.
A spider.
A sea urchin.
A jellyfish.
A grasshopper.

Hang On Voltaire : Answer the damn question.

Good call, Brains.



I hear he's a good digger.

Kind of ugly, isn't it, milk_plus?
I don't know enough coal mining companies to get a broad sample, but it's interesting that Arch Coal (a real high-flyer in the stock market is why I know them) has no violations for the same period. I'm no mining expert, but I'd say those violations, even if all minor by themselves, have got to add up to a serious risk. They even got cited for a backup beeper not functioning, so I'd say the inspectors were being thorough.

Traxis: Ya, just as tragic as the other millions of people that die everyday. Why should we care any more about these guys?

Because the wonderous box of flickering light in my living room says so.

HOV had been posting within 10 minute intervals. he's been awful quiet for a while now...

/did gwowen quiet him?

Wanted for questioning.

Let's run a " I am a hateful jerk" tally, shall we alidade

Sure, don't forget to add your own blind hatred for Bush who has never done anything to directly affect your life. Saying otherwise is bullshiat. Why does this tragedy present you with an opportunity to spew partisan rhetoric?

Can't have enough common decency to at least wait till the guys are buried and some actual information about the incident is available? Your profile says your an engineer. I would expect better from you then.

Act like an ass get treated like an ass.

My favorite one of all. Who did you learn that from, Rush Limbaugh?

Riiiight, because at 42 years of age I never had a conservative thought until Rush came on the air. So who's pidgeon-holed now? I am a fifth generation Republican and I lean toward the conservative libertarian side of things. My great great grandfather ran Lincolns campaign in the state of Kentucy, my grandfather was in the WV house of Reps, the first president I voted for was Reagan, but I get all my political beliefs from the radio. Please....

So in closing let me take a play from the liberal book and demean your intelligence (cause only liberals are enlightened and intelligent right?)

Sexual intellectual is the polite way of saying phuking know-it-all. sort of like saying "women in comfortable shoes"....ask your "partner" if you don't get that one.