smeegle

That is disgusting. If not for those violations, 12 people could be alive right now. And they were only fined $60? What is this, China? Are our mines/workplaces sweatshops where we exploit the working class for the profit of a few powerful businessmen?

YouPeopleAreCrazy: CNN/Fox/MSNBC

You must have mistaken me for one of those "biased newspaper cartel" nutjobs.

I'm just saying that the BBC must have had a slow news day to run this on the front. Did nothing significant happen over there today?

david11982:I'm still confused about how a "miscommunication" like this happens. You would think as soon as someone said "12 are alive," and the people trying to save them knew that wasn't true they'd respond "no they aren't."

That makes two of us. I'm a corporate communications person - someone who usually coach executives through giving bad news and write press releases, and I can't fathom how they (the company, the state government) didn't have someone on the scene to take control of who got what information when.

/thankfully has never had to write news like that.

jules_siegel
To all who comment that mining is dangerous, I say, then it should be carefully regulated, like all dangerous activities.

Hang On Voltaire:
Mining is already carefully regulated. Regulation does not mean making something 100% safe. Compare the number of people who died in mines 70 years ago before regulation vs. today.

$3600 for 168 safety violations is not carefully regulated.

cargrrl82: guess why that equipment exists, because of regulation.


I don't believe that anyone here is arguing that mining is not regulated--

Just that there has been steady pressure in recent years to reduce the enforcement and impact of this regulation. $55 per safety violation? Come on--who would even blink at that?--that's less than 2 man hours of miners wages. If violations are so cheap, why would anyone even spend the time to correct them. If it costs more than 1.5 man hours to do it, it's just wasted money.

meridian

Compare this to the loss of the crew of the Space Shuttle. Will they now shut down all mining operations until many of the safety issues can be investigated? Or is it different when company profits are involved?

It's different when a country relies on a resource. I hope you don't take this personally but your comment may be the dumbest I have ever seen on Fark.

lexslamman
This, of course, is what happens when you let Republicans cut down the amount of regulations placed on big business - people get killed in unsafe workplace hellholes like the Sago mine.

Hang On Voltaire:
Exactly what regulation was cut that would have saved these men?

There were 24 hour warnings for all inspections, fined were reduced from an effective level to less than an annoyance.

meridian : There'll be no widespread investigation, because if there were, someone might notice the widespread weakening of the regulatory safety framework that's taken place over the last 5 years.

Why, it's almost as if the President appointed coal industry lobbyists as the regulators.

BrotherAlpha
$3600 for 168 safety violations is not carefully regulated.

What are those violations? Do you not see the irony in your sentence?

alidade

So let me get this straight - you are claiming that the whole mine filled up with CO so quickly that a couple guys couldn't walk 2 up miles to their freedom, but instead had to walk down a couple hundred feet to their doom? I don't buy it. No major debris, no incendiary explosion. Sounds to me like they died for 2 reasons:

1) negligence of the mine operators
2) stupidity

BrotherAlpha: $3600 for 168 safety violations is not carefully regulated.


Exactly. I'd have to pay more than that for having weeds in my yard 168 times.

Just noticed this headline next to the miner story...



CNN owes me a new keyboard.

Its a working man l am
And Ive been down under ground
And I swear to God if lever see the sun
Or for any length of time
I can hold it in my mind
I never again will go down under ground

Rita MacNeil, "Working Man"

Hang On Voltaire:
You didn't answer my question. Exactly what safety violation was removed by the Bush Administration that caused these men to die?

The ability to inspect, fine and shut down companies was reduced to a pathetic level. Sure, ther safety standards might still be there, but there are merely recommendations and not laws anymore.

Hang On Voltaire

I dunno. It seems to me that escapeways could have been helpful in this instance, don't you?

No. This mine was not carefully regulated. These men died because they were exploited by the negligence of their employers and let down by the federal government/MSHA.

It is really a shame.

Hang On Voltaire:
But you said This, of course, is what happens when you let Republicans cut down the amount of regulations placed on big business so are you telling me now that you had a misprint there and it really is a reduction in penalties that caused the problem? If so what penalty was reduced that caused the mine company to disregard a regulation that caused this accident?

A regulation is only as effective ad the punishment for breaking it. Your pathetic hair-splitting won't change that.

I read about 15 posts and stopped. A thread in which I hoped to find a few more facts from people with various sources was just at thread in which the value in human life was argued.

"Blah, I dont care. Move on."

Very humane responses.

Thousands of people die every day. Those lucky enough to go in their sleep are mourned by their friends and family, those that die tragically should be morned by everyone. But you can't mourn every death, so when you hear about something tragic, is it going to ruin your day to spare just a few minutes?

Just because death happens every day, doesn't mean the friends and family of the deceased are dealing with death everyday.

/Get over yourselves

WankRag

The UK is the 5th largest producer of coal in the EU, harvesting over 31.1 million short tons of caol in 2003. Mining is still a very active part of the British economy, thus warranting BBC coverage.


Meh, mining is nearly dead here compared to what it was. I think this is headline news on the BBC because it's a relatively slow news day in the world today. The only other tragic event to report on is the mass death from a terrorism strike, but as that happened in Iraq it's treated more like a daily occurance than a newsflash.

I was watching live last night in my bed when they said they were all alive. I woke my wife and told her. Anderson Cooper was bouncing around and everyone was cheering and clapping.

I wake up and they are all dead but one? That is the worst shiat ever for those families. To get their hopes up like that only to slap them down. I know people die everyday, but the poor families that got their hopes up like that. My god. It's heartbreaking.

I wonder if anyone else notices that all of the demeaning comments about the disaster are mere quibbles, or repeated requests for verification that has been amply supplied?

Where do these people come from? Are they paid to do this or are they just public-spirited citizens trying to keep the tragedy in proper perspective?

I guess the proper perspective is, oh, who cares? I'm really grateful to them for helping me understand that. They remind me of PC Magazine's Bill Machrone who dismissed repetitive stress injury as an "emotional problem." No wonder he was promoted from mere columnist to corporate vice president not long afterward.

Huh. Yeah, it's sad, and the "gotcha" aspect is a bummer, but people die every day, and these deaths may be more dramatic, but they're not more tragic than the rest.

Ever notice that everyone who died on September 11th was a fantastic person? Somehow the terrorists succeeded in their efforts to spare all of the asshats.

Hang On Voltaire: Exactly what safety violation was removed by the Bush Administration that caused these men to die?


Not necessarily removed, but ended work to put into place.

Wahsington Post, 11/16/2004
Mining Safety Rules Got the Shaft, Workers Union Says
" Among the regulatory proposals no longer being worked on, some of them spanning years and administrations, are those addressing safety issues with self-rescue respiratory devices for miners, the shortage of mine rescue teams, problems with huge trucks that are the leading cause of mine fatalities, fire-resistant conveyer belts in mines, and improved air quality rules."

If you want the full text I will be glad to email it to you.

BrotherAlpha
$3600 for 168 safety violations is not carefully regulated.

Hang On Voltaire:
What are those violations? Do you not see the irony in your sentence?

No. No irony at all. Regulations are not just rules, they are the ability to enforce those rules. Impairing the ability of inpsectors, the fines they can hand out, etc. is all part of regulations. If you reduce one, you reduce them all.

Hang On Voltaire : The requirement that mines should have a minimum of two paths to safety was removed in 2001. MSHA head David Lauriski (a former coal lobbyist) gave the reason as "in light of resource constraints and changing safety and health regulatory priorities."

INeedAName

Oh get over it and stop being such a sensitive little wuss. People die every day. Its the Darwinian way. Whining is futile.

lexslamman
Hang On Voltaire
I dunno. It seems to me that escapeways could have been helpful in this instance, don't you?
No. This mine was not carefully regulated. These men died because they were exploited by the negligence of their employers and let down by the federal government/MSHA.
It is really a shame.

You are right about one thing it is a shame and a tragedy. Really, why don't you just admit you have no clue what you are talking about. You can't answer my question.

INeedAName: I read about 15 posts and stopped. A thread in which I hoped to find a few more facts from people with various sources was just at thread in which the value in human life was argued.


Shoulda read further--It's just getting interesting.

This is not a miscommunication.
This is the media blowing its wad too early without checking its source, AGAIN!!!

'Overheard' phone calls do not count as a source!!

How about this for tragic?

> 100 people may be dead in a landslide in Indonesia

170 feared dead in landslide (Indonesia)

But CNN, the BBC, and fox has the 12 miners as their lead story

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 170 people possibly suffocating trumps 12 people suffocating, in terms of tragedy.

Someday.....maybe - it will dawn on the reporters that "I'm first, look at me" isn't as important as "I have the story right, listen up."

Hang On Voltaire:
You are right about one thing it is a shame and a tragedy. Really, why don't you just admit you have no clue what you are talking about. You can't answer my question.

Like you know more about mining than we do. Give it a rest.

BTW, gwowen has answered your question.

Hang On Voltaire

Can't really do that, I know too much about mining.

Why can't you admit that you are talking out of your ass to try, like most of your rightist friends, to divert blame for this tragedy to the media and away from the responsible parties in the mining business and the federal government.

Kind of like y'all tried to do with, oh, I dunno, Hurricane Katrina.

Shameless asshole.

Well, I just skipped straight to the end of the posts after reading all the carp about "why is it in the UK press", "why is their situation so tragic" and all the other rubbish. In my opinion: Somebody screwed up and the relatives were informed - wrongly - that all but one were alive IIRC. Just imagine being told shortly after that this was not the case. It'd knock the a*se out of your world.

Being from the UK, I can vouch for the fact that mining communities are very close, and this sort of tragedy will be hitting the whole town hard. I think it has a place in the UK media for that fact alone.

Final point: All you threadjackers using this to spout your pro- or anti-Bush bull should be ashamed of yourselves. Get a life - or at least a new topic of conversation you dreary, sad people.

My condolences go out to all affected.

I know that this comes a little late, but am I the only person who remembers the feud story about the Hatfields and McCoys. Re-check the names in the article, and maybe you too will notice that this is an act by the mine owner to get back at his workers families over a long-thought-dead feud.....

I'm gonna put my tin hat back on, and hide in the basemant now....

what happened?

Gotta love cnn.com's current headling "12 dead despite earlier reports"

Yes, those 12 people are dead in contemptuous defiance or disregard of the earlier reports.

Way to use teh dictionary... *sad*

lordargent

Indonesia is in the Eastern Pacific Ocean.

West Virginia is in America.

Always lead with domestic tragedy.

Unless there's a tsunami.

This sadly reminds me of Mann Gulch Fire, subject of Norman Maclean's "Young Men and Fire" and a song called "Cold Missouri Waters". Not very similar in any particulars save the pathos of too many lives cut too short.

I've had my say, I'll confess to nothing more
I'll join them now, because they left me long before
Thirteen crosses high above the cold Missouri waters



Secksual intellexualism?

Lerxst2k:
This is not a miscommunication.
This is the media blowing its wad too early without checking its source, AGAIN!!!
'Overheard' phone calls do not count as a source!!

While the media did screw up, the mining company knew they were wrong and waited 3 hours to inform the media. Hmmm, what happened in those 3 hours, that's right, newspapers were published and shipped. So this morning millions will read that there was a 'miracle' last night and the company will get some good press. After all, corrections never make the front page.

jayhorn5
As one of 3 people working at CNN.com on the overnight shift (webmaster-me, editor, video guy), I want to say FARK YOU to all the people that blame us for anything. We never reported anything except 'family says' and 'family reports'. You don't fact check multiple witnesses, you report 'Witnesses say...'.

I don't care if you think the media's biased, I'm a conservative working for a "liberal" company, what does that make me? If you want to know the details of how we go about verifying a story, I'll explain it some other time. It was a tragic accident, let's put blame where it's due.

We both know this is not the first case of "Kill the messenger", and we both also know it won't be the last.

You guys just reported what was being told in the church to the families just after they were told it. That they were in fact told it and when they were told it does not seem to be in dispute by anyone.

lexslamman: Always lead with domestic tragedy.

And the BBC is where?

i'm always amazed when these sad threads become areas for flamewars. i know i shouldnt be surprised, its one of the bigger news stories in the past couple days, so everyone has something to say. that being said, here's my 2 cents. ;)

its a shame, its a tragedy, and i'm very sorry for the families who lost loved ones. i dont know enough about mining or those specific facilities to be able to say who is to fault here, and i'm willing to bet that over 95% of the rest of you dont either. we cant say its the governments fault. i dont like bush any more than those of you bashing the government, but not everything can be his fault. there are plenty of other things that the blame can be laid at his feet for. this does not appear to be one of them, and it just taints this tragedy with partisan BS that should be kept out of it.

the only thing that i find anger in is that Hatfield and Machin (didnt go back for the names, so forgive any misspelling) knew 20 minutes after the families started celebrating that not all of the miners survived. their logic for waiting 3 hours is that they didnt know exact numbers or which families to tell to stop celebrating. you know what? thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. if they knew 20 minutes after the first positive reports that the trust was not so positive, they should have gotten up and asked everyone to please contain themselves. tell the people there are conflicting reports and they dont know the exact details yet, so please dont prematurely celebrate. if they had just said something like that, there would have been alot less pain for the families of those who died.

damn.. thats all..

INeedAName:
Thousands of people die every day. Those lucky enough to go in their sleep are mourned by their friends and family, those that die tragically should be morned by everyone. But you can't mourn every death, so when you hear about something tragic, is it going to ruin your day to spare just a few minutes?
/Get over yourselves

You certainly have a unique view on how some lives are more important than others. If someone dies in a car accident, it doesn't make that person more worthy of being mourned than someone who dies in their sleep. Death is death.

I_C_Weener

If someone drinks and drives and kills someone...do we blame Bush for not putting more police on the street, or for making drunk-driving a death penalty crime? Or do we blame the one who drove drunk?

No, we blame "the victim." Because this is Fark, and there are no victims.

I'm surprised that no Farkers have gone out of their way to find out whether the 13 coal miners were "good workers" or "bad workers" and blame them. Isn't that what you people do?