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(Local6)   When two Mormons go to your house to preach their message, do you: A) Tell them no thanks? B) Invite them in to hear them out? C) Kill one of them and fatally wound the other?   (local6.com) divider line 622
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29351 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jan 2006 at 2:40 PM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-01-03 08:27:09 PM  
D) Try to sell them your religion. For extra kicks, make up a religion on the spot and try to sell that one to them.
 
2006-01-03 08:27:45 PM  
I hate mormons too.


/blacks, jews, and poles too!
 
2006-01-03 08:29:18 PM  
Falin: They've made specific promises to specific groups, but never even hinted they would stop the practice altogether.


Likely Jews and Catholics. Big issues messing with the dead. I really can't tell you how offensive that whole concept is.
 
2006-01-03 08:29:34 PM  
treesloth, how can this never have happened if the Church had to agree to stop doing it in 1995. Here are two articles. Now the National Post could be questionable, if you are really into hating on Conrad Black (and Canada I guess). Then the Associated Press is the Associated Press. So, I don't know find either credible.

Jews urge Mormons to curb zeal for posthumous baptism
Einstein, Freud, Anne Frank have all appeared in database

National Post/June 6, 2001
By Jan Cienski

Salt Lake City -- David Ben-Gurion, Albert Einstein, Menachem Begin and Sigmund Freud have several things in common -- they were all Jewish and they have been posthumously baptized by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The Mormon Church agreed to remove hundreds of names of Jewish luminaries from its genealogical records last month after they were spotted by a keen-eyed researcher.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center was alerted to the problem by Helen Radkey, a Salt Lake City genealogist, who found Jewish names in the Church's database including Moshe Dayan, the Israeli war hero; Golda Meir, Israel's first female prime minister; Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism; and Holocaust victim Anne Frank and more than a dozen of her relatives.

"They did not get baptized when they were alive and they had a choice, and doing so after they are dead is beyond the ethical bounds," said Aaron Breitbart, a researcher with the Wiesenthal centre. "They are also showing a tremendous insensitivity to the living."

The LDS Church believes the dead who did not have a chance to convert while alive can and should be baptized. According to Mormon theology, they retain the ability to choose or reject the baptism in the next life. The Church refers to a passage in the Apostle Paul's first letter to the Corinthians as its authority: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?"

All Mormon believers have a religious obligation to track down their ancestors and baptize them in sacred ceremonies in their temples, where living Mormons temporarily assume the names of the dead. The Church's founder, Joseph Smith, even warned that those who failed to find ancestors did so "at the peril of their own salvation."

The quest for forebears to baptize has led the LDS Church to create the largest genealogical database in the world, the Family History Library, housed across the street from the faith's main temple in Salt Lake City. Inside, dozens of people, including many non-Mormons, tap away at computers looking to fill in gaps in their family trees from the two billion names on record.

The original records are stored in a vault excavated in a canyon about 40 kilometres from downtown Salt Lake City. Although Church rules only call for direct ancestors to be baptized, enthusiastic proselytizers have scoured records of names from around the world, including Jewish encyclopedias, genealogies of European aristocracy and lists of names of immigrants to the United States in their bid to save souls.

Jewish groups first approached the Church in 1995, demanding that Jews be removed. As a result of the agreement, the Church no longer includes the names of Jewish Holocaust victims in its genealogy databases unless they are submitted by a direct descendant.

Jewish groups have also complained about how wide the Church casts its net looking for lost souls. People baptized into the faith include Adolf Hitler and his henchmen Hermann Goering and Heinrich Himmler, all of whom have been removed from the Church's files.

Jews who are not Holocaust victims are dealt with on a case-by-case basis, which is why the first prime minister of Israel and the father of psychoanalysis ended up in the Church's records. The Church says it has removed the names of hundreds of thousands of Jewish Holocaust victims from its records, but because the database is so massive and is constantly being updated by volunteer users, this is a Sisyphean task.

"While the Church counsels members to submit only names of direct-line ancestors, it cannot prevent individual members from again submitting the names of Jewish Holocaust victims," said Kim Farah, a Church spokeswoman.

"When the Church becomes aware this has occurred, the names are immediately removed." Despite the occasional friction between Jewish groups and Mormons, the Church's family records have proved a boon to Jewish genealogists, who often travel to Salt Lake City to consult them.

Gary Mokotoff, a researcher with Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy, says of the latest dust-up: "a friend stepped on the foot of another friend."

**********************************

Jewish Leaders Flay LDS Baptisms

Deseret News

By Mark Thiessen
Associated Press

Jewish leaders assert that Mormons continue to posthumously baptize Jews and Holocaust victims and will confront church leaders with a decade of frustration over what they call broken promises.

"We have proof, and we are bringing that," said Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in for the deceased non-LDS, a ritual the church says is required for the dead to reach heaven. The church believes individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave.

Michel plans to show posthumous baptism records to church officials in meetings Sunday and Monday. He says the records prove tens of thousands of Jews, including some who died in Nazi concentration camps, were posthumously baptized over the past 10 years and as recently as last month.

A 1995 agreement signed by Jewish leaders and the LDS Church called for an immediate halt to unwanted proxy baptisms. After evidence was found in the church's massive International Genealogical Index that the baptisms for many Jews including Anne Frank continued, the two faiths reaffirmed the agreement in 2002.

Jewish leaders in New York have bitterly complained the baptisms never stopped, and last year asked Democratic Sen. Hillary Clinton to intervene. She met with Sen. Orrin Hatch, an Utah Republican and active Mormon, though neither side would discuss what was said.

The church, too, declined comment Thursday.

"The church won't be commenting at all on this issue for the moment. We are looking forward to discussions with our Jewish guests," spokeswoman Kim Farah said.

Under the Mormon practice, most Catholic popes have been proxy baptized, as have historical figures like Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Buddha, according to Helen Radkey, an independent genealogical researcher in Salt Lake City.

However, the church directed its members after 1995 to not include for baptism the names of Jewish Holocaust victims, celebrities and people who aren't relatives.

The church also assumes the closest living relative of the deceased being offered for proxy baptism has consented.

Carol Skydell, also a researcher, said that didn't happen when her paternal grandparents and aunt and uncle apparently were given a baptism by proxy. She found their proxy baptism records in 2002.

"Nobody asked me, nobody asked my cousin. It's ridiculous," Skydell said.

***************************

May 5, 1995
Associated Press Newswire
By Richard Pyle
Mormons, Jews Sign Agreement On Baptizing Holocaust Victims

NEW YORK (AP) Mormons who baptized 380,000 Holocaust victims posthumously were motivated by love and compassion and did not understand their gesture might offend Jews, a church official said.

Mormon record-gatherers who performed the baptisms "were deeply moved by the tragedy of that terrible, terrible event," said Monte J. Brough, a member of the Mormon Church's Presidency of the Seventy. But he said they did not realize that what they intended as a "Christian act of service" was "misguided and insensitive."

Brough spoke Wednesday as Jewish and Mormon leaders signed an agreement to remove the Holocaust victims' names from the church lists of people who have been baptized as Mormons after death. The brief signing ceremony was intended to end a controversy that arose after some Jewish survivors learned last year, to their shock, that relatives had been baptized into the Christian faith after they perished in Nazi death camps.

"On the 50th anniversary of our liberation and our escape ... what could potentially have been a bigger problem was solved in a most positive and most agreeable manner," said Ernest Michel, chairman of the World Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, one of five Jewish groups involved.

Michel became a leader on the issue after discovering last year that his parents, who died at Auschwitz, and other relatives, were among those who had been posthumously baptized as Christian.

"I must tell you that I was incensed I had no other reaction," Michel told a small group of rabbis and other Jewish leaders at the ceremony.

Brough said the posthumous baptisms were a mistake that violated church policy. Baptism is a basic Mormon tenet, but only ancestors of church members are normally entitled to posthumous baptism, he said.

The six-page agreement, approved by Jewish organization leaders about two weeks ago, calls for all of the Jewish Holocaust victims' names to be removed from the church's vast International Genealogical Index.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints maintains the world's largest genealogical library, with some 2 billion names of people of many faiths and nationalities. The purpose, Brough said, is to "unite extended family members in an eternal bond." Brough is executive director of its Family History Department.

Of the 2 billion names, about 200 million have been baptized by living proxies who are members of the church. Most were from North America, Western Europe and Asia, he said. Most of the 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust were from Germany and Eastern Europe.

Brough said the 380,000 Jews had been given the "temple ordinance" of baptism by nine well-meaning but overzealous Mormon record-gatherers.

The nine, whom he did not name, were motivated by "love and compassion" after visiting Holocaust museums and memorials, Brough said.

"The nine are apologetic, and appalled that they did not understand the sensitivities that were involved here," the church official said.

It will take several months for computers to find and eliminate all the baptized names, Brough said. Once removed, they will not appear in any Mormon genealogical index records.

The Mormon church discovered in 1990 that names entered from German, Dutch, French and Israeli rosters of Holocaust victims had been baptized by mistake and ordered that such baptisms cease, except for people who had living descendants in the church.

Brough said that if it should be discovered that other groups of people had been baptized posthumously into the Mormon faith, their names also would be removed.
 
2006-01-03 08:32:39 PM  
twoody: Joseph Smith actually gave freeborn black people the mormon priesthood.

So, the slaves were less loved by Jesus than free blacks? Was this because even Smith believed that slaves were the descendants of sinners and that was why they were slaves?

In what way was that a positive anecdote, again?
 
2006-01-03 08:34:34 PM  
sokpupet

yet when two unarmed, untrained youths are shot down in cold blood without the knowledge their death might happen, it's suddenly hilarious.

It's not hilarious to me. I'm sorry if any of my posts offended you. But most of this thread is not about this kid that was murdered. It's about door to door missions from any religion.

It's dangerous. I would not let my kid do it.


2004 Chesapeke, VA - Violent Crimes per 100,000 persons = 616.1

2004 New York, NY - Violent Crimes per 100,000 persons = 687.4

2004 San Jose, Ca - Violent Crimes per 100,000 persons = 371.8




source - http://www.morganquitno.com/cit04a.pdf PDF
 
2006-01-03 08:35:38 PM  
I can never be rude to the people answering the door. I have never had the heart to turn any of them away outright, I always told them my parents were not home and they left the house but did give me papers to read.

Same with sales people do not turn them away outright.

People who call same thing, I do not want to hurt anyones feelings but the way some people on the phone treat me I want to punch them over the phone.
 
2006-01-03 08:36:05 PM  
BeowulfSmith, those articles refer to "baptisms for the dead". It is incorrect to refer to this as "converting dead people". So, to answer your question, no, we do not "go into graveyards and baptise dead people who were not mormons". The practice and doctrine of baptism for the dead is well documented by the Church. You are welcome to read that documentation for yourself.
 
2006-01-03 08:37:40 PM  
I realised the shooter is a very powerful man.

He just created a new god.

Can you put someone in jail for God making? I think not.
 
2006-01-03 08:41:04 PM  
datafox

I can never be rude to the people answering the door. I have never had the heart to turn any of them away outright, I always told them my parents were not home and they left the house but did give me papers to read.

Same with sales people do not turn them away outright.

People who call same thing, I do not want to hurt anyones feelings but the way some people on the phone treat me I want to punch them over the phone.



Me too. Let's hope the guy 4 houses down is not high on PCP and crank while cleaning his gun next time the Jehova's Witnesses come knocking. For their sake.
 
2006-01-03 08:41:24 PM  
treesloth: BeowulfSmith, those articles refer to "baptisms for the dead". It is incorrect to refer to this as "converting dead people".


So tell me - what is the exact difference between those two statements?
 
2006-01-03 08:42:08 PM  
Another thing you can do when someone shows up at your door is to explosively soil yourself, thus discouraging a lengthy visitation.

/it's a good thing
 
2006-01-03 08:44:06 PM  
Does baptising the dead relate to use of the trouser hose?

I'm just asking, cause if it is I know this dude who should really stop doing it.
 
2006-01-03 08:45:57 PM  
faethe: So tell me - what is the exact difference between those two statements?

Excellent question which deserves not to be ignored.
 
2006-01-03 08:48:18 PM  
Thank you, treesloth, for playing semantic games, and then admitting, that yes, Mormons have been known to "baptise" the dead who were not Mormon. Now please, take a second to realize how offensive people of other faiths find this. Then, please urge your Mormon brothers and sisters to knock that shiat off (since apparently, the LDS church has lied about stopping before).

Like I said, tolerance of your beliefs is one thing. However, once your faith starts intruding on mine, the tolerance ceases.

I found my maternal grandfather's name on one of those Mormon "geneological resource lists". He didn't spend 1942 through 1945 fighting the Nazis in first North Africa, then France and Belgium, and then finally into Germany, just so some Mormon assbag could baptise him after he died. Do what you want with your own life. Leave other people out of it.

Now that being said, aside from that nasty little practice (well, and that whole massive racism thing against black people), I have no problem with the Mormons. If you come to my house, I'll even be polite and invite you in (and no booze, nudity, peanut butter, dogs, S&M gear, or firearms will be involved... unless you ask really nice)
 
2006-01-03 08:49:58 PM  
Joseph Smith was against slavery. Bad idea in Missouri at the time. Baptism for the dead is the proxy baptism of a dead person, now a spirit, by someone alive. The spirit can then reject or accept the Gospel of Jesus CHrist as presented by Mormons.
 
2006-01-03 08:51:14 PM  
2006-01-03 06:33:28 PM frtmn7

Did anyone else find it ironic that this picture was below the article???

No I saw that too. Clever..
 
2006-01-03 08:51:19 PM  
faethe: So tell me - what is the exact difference between those two statements?

Trouser hose, dude.

Trouser hose.
 
2006-01-03 08:53:35 PM  
Cannibalizer: \\\\Its like Jesus Fan-Fiction, but he doesn't fark Pilate

Cannibalizer wins.
 
2006-01-03 08:54:56 PM  
This is a sad story. They werent doing any harm, other than maybe annoying a few citizens.



A week or two ago some guy came to the door with his daughter ( I hope), and started talking about his church. I said no thanks and closed the door in their faces.

It is not about spreading the "word" about Jesus anymore. It's about getting you into one specific church.

About 12 years ago I was smoking bowls and playing my electric guitar. I noticed two guys at my door. Mormons.

I let them come in and sit for a minute.
I asked them the usual stuff.
"How can God knowingly set up the world like this, then send people to eternal hell for not following a certain religion?"

They didnt have any answers really, other than "thats just the way it is."

Then a few days later, in the evening, they knocked again. But this time they had a very old fellow with them. A closer! They must have thought they had me on the line.

I felt bad for being so assertive of my obvious right to privacy, but still, I said no thanks and closed the door. And always have, ever since.

Mormons are a lot like people from the midwest. They are probably fooled by politicians into voting for the wrong reasons, but they are mostly straightforward, good people.

RIP bud.
 
2006-01-03 08:57:35 PM  
faethe, doctrinally, the difference consists what takes place. The practice of baptism for the dead offers to the person for whom it is performed the same salvific benefits derived by the living. Just as in the LDS church it is up to the living to decide whether to be baptized (barring inappropriate influence or duress, obviously) it is up to the dead to decide whether to accept the offered benefits. It is not fait accimpli-- "you are now baptized, dead person". It is "this is offered-- accept or reject as you wish". As I read "converting dead people", it suggests the assumption that they are now believers, counted as members and accepting of the Church and all that correctly implies. That is not the doctrine.

paulseta

Another thing you can do when someone shows up at your door is to explosively soil yourself, thus discouraging a lengthy visitation.


That is effective, but sometimes I find that I get stage fright when the time comes. I recommend practicing beforehand. Find a public place and try it there-- say, twice a day.
 
2006-01-03 09:00:25 PM  
rbuzby

Then a few days later, in the evening, they knocked again. But this time they had a very old fellow with them. A closer!

That's funny. Can't win 'em all.
 
2006-01-03 09:01:08 PM  
c)
 
2006-01-03 09:04:20 PM  
BeowulfSmith, I was not playing "semantic games". I was quite clear in my explanations. No games. However, the fact that you decide to characterize my response in that manner suggests an unwillingness to reasonably consider other views. So, without malice, I am going to stop responding to you.
 
2006-01-03 09:04:26 PM  
Rann Xerox: Method #1
They show up at the door and you say "No thanks." Result: they come back.

Method #2
They show up at the door. You open the door buck naked using your penis and ballsack to slowly stir a bowl of lukewarn grits and say "No thanks." Result: they DON'T come back.

/Results may vary.


LOL

/thinks this is the best idea yet
//wonders how many times one has to answer the door like this to actually meet the religious people
 
2006-01-03 09:06:09 PM  
AdeptusAstartes: Joseph Smith was against slavery.

That's that seperate but equal bullshiat that doesn't quite have the balls to be racist. A gentleman's hatred. Bullshiat. You tell me where Christ said that Black people have to sit outside the temple. That's so farking American. "They can do anything they want as long as they don't try to act like us".

Bad idea in Missouri at the time. Baptism for the dead is the proxy baptism of a dead person, now a spirit, by someone alive. The spirit can then reject or accept the Gospel of Jesus CHrist as presented by Mormons.

And where in ANY reference to Christianity does it state that you should contact the dead? That's farking heresy, and the Mormon church knows it. Just because you dress it up and make it quack like a good thing, doesn't mean its not bullshiat. One thing I don't think the LDS acknowleges in this. Other sects see this as firm heresy - especially evangelicals and Baptists. Divination, mediumship, contacting the dead is most especially pointed out as a heresy in the bible. Whether you pay into that or not is your choice. But taking this line of shiat as official Church Doctrine, then inflicting that shiat on other faiths, is pure horseshiat, and what's more, they know it and don't farking care.

The more I read about this, themore I come to understand that of all the faiths out there, the Mormons appear to find the things that especially piss off all the others, thenm fling it right in thier faces - like 'fark you - we know the truth'.
 
2006-01-03 09:06:39 PM  
treesloth
BeowulfSmith, I was not playing "semantic games". I was quite clear in my explanations. No games. However, the fact that you decide to characterize my response in that manner suggests an unwillingness to reasonably consider other views. So, without malice, I am going to stop responding to you.

You can't imagine how sad that makes. Well actually, since it doesn't at all, I guess you probably could.
 
2006-01-03 09:06:52 PM  
rbuzby, I have to confess that I'm a little surprised that the people that you met had no answer to your question. While it's a challenging question, it's also one of the central parts of the message missionaries teach. Are you sure they were Mormons?
 
2006-01-03 09:07:29 PM  
paulseta: Trouser hose.


I know - but this is what thier elders tell them to repeat. Its shiat like that that strikes me as mind control - because its like a double negative. The real meaning is 'fark you, we'll do whatever the fark we want'. Arrogance.
 
2006-01-03 09:08:43 PM  
Rann Xerox: Method #1
They show up at the door and you say "No thanks." Result: they come back.

Method #2
They show up at the door. You open the door buck naked using your penis and ballsack to slowly stir a bowl of lukewarn grits and say "No thanks." Result: they DON'T come back.

/Results may vary.



I'm now at 2 min 35 seconds laughing my ass off on that post!
 
2006-01-03 09:09:11 PM  
I've got about 15 in the basement and they'll eat and drink anything if you wait long enough.
 
2006-01-03 09:09:55 PM  
treesloth Find a public place and try it there-- say, twice a day.

As George Michael found out, you can make a lot of new friends that way.

/has anyone ever had implosive soilage?
//cause I know this guy...
 
2006-01-03 09:11:46 PM  
Joseph Smith was against slavery because he didn't want black people in the same state as him. Look at Oregon, Idaho, Utah, and Nevada early laws. No black folk allowed.

Governor Pierce of Oregon was KKK and mormon.
 
2006-01-03 09:12:36 PM  
Last time one of them came by, I preached about the devil until the guy said he was calling the cops on me.

I told him to fark off, and closed the door.

I felt good

/catholic
// hates people who push religion on you.
 
2006-01-03 09:13:26 PM  
10% of these missionaries haven't figured out they're gay yet so don't meet them at the door naked unless you're prepared for the missionary position.
 
2006-01-03 09:25:50 PM  
My physics teacher told us a story of when he was in college and two Mormons knocked on his dorm room door at 8 AM. Being nocturnal, this did not please him. They, in their suits, kept their composure when he answered the door in his underwear. He said "Wait", turned around, rummaged through his room, came back with a water gun and shot them both. Then he felt bad about it and invited them in for a friendly chat.
 
2006-01-03 09:27:18 PM  
treesloth

They gave some kind of answer, but it came down to "thats the way it is" as I recall it.

I think I was asking them why God prefers their way of worship, and will let them go to Heaven, while ignoring the sincere prayers of people who dont follow Christ but still believe in and lovingly worship a single Supreme God.

And why a perfect omiscient loving being would set up a system that he knew would fail (humans) then punish them for their own stupidity.

Thats what they couldnt answer.
 
2006-01-03 09:28:18 PM  
You guys need to remember, that no matter what you think of religion when 'those mormon people' knock on your door, your generally just talking to two young guys between 19 and 21ish who are only just starting out in the 'real' world. So dont be a dick.
 
2006-01-03 09:34:05 PM  
Just a reminder to all trolls:
img478.imageshack.us
 
2006-01-03 09:35:00 PM  
rbuzby, again, I would say that those are exactly the sorts of questions that missionaries deal with constantly. I'm quite surprised they didn't answer. If you really want to know the LDS view on the matter, look up a reasonably well-versed teacher or someone like that. They should have no problems with a question along the lines of "I'm really not interested in signing up, but tell me what you believe about..." I got a number of such questions as a missionary.
 
2006-01-03 09:38:14 PM  
treesloth

Do I really have to ask?

What is the answer to the questions?!?!?

Obviously, I dont think the God is like that. If there is one, nobody goes to hell on a technicality.
 
2006-01-03 09:39:07 PM  
If you want to know what the mormons belive, its pretty plainly spelled out for you in the "articles of faith":

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html
 
2006-01-03 09:43:05 PM  
/irony alert

I'm a christian and while I do belive the Mormon church is a cult ...

/irony alert
 
2006-01-03 09:45:36 PM  
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.


#7 is a tough sell.
 
2006-01-03 09:46:49 PM  
geaux thats a damn good point - Christianity is so secular, who in their wrong mind is any Christian to call any other Christian a cultist?

/not a christian
//family are
///im going to hell for using slashes because I hate them
 
2006-01-03 09:49:19 PM  
Well we've all got tounges!
Moore was right about the internet.
Jobs revealed that video ipod thing a vew months ago.
I had a vision the other night after I drank too much.
I got a splinter three weeks ago and its fully healed now.
My brother speaks spanish and english. Also, I knew a gypsy lady that could 'read' tounges (as chinsey as that is).

Roflmao?
 
2006-01-03 09:51:42 PM  
mormons, supz:

img277.imageshack.us
 
2006-01-03 09:52:47 PM  
Well, that's going a little too far.

I'll admit that they are annoying, smug, misguided, and self righteous. But killing the poor buggers ain't gorram right. Being all of the above is punishment enough.
 
2006-01-03 09:52:57 PM  
Ok you can tell me all about your gods if I can share with you the quality of my butt gasses.
Deal?
There are of the same importance to me.

BTW. Don't shoot people. It's not polite.
/Vegetarian.
//True believer in gravity
 
2006-01-03 09:54:04 PM  
SpaceCowboy

Well we've all got tounges!
Moore was right about the internet.
Jobs revealed that video ipod thing a vew months ago.
I had a vision the other night after I drank too much.
I got a splinter three weeks ago and its fully healed now.
My brother speaks spanish and english. Also, I knew a gypsy lady that could 'read' tounges (as chinsey as that is).



Wow! Well, since you put it that way... who should I write the check out to? God or J.C.?
 
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