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(ABC)   Remember earlier in the week when the Senate blocked the renewal of the Patriot Act? Maybe not so much   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 437
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12375 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Dec 2005 at 12:18 PM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-12-22 03:56:05 PM
why don't you just read the patriot act?

what rights is the patriot act causing us to give up and where, specifically, in the law do you draw that conclusion from?

now that that OralB clown is gone I will give an example:
someone tell me WHY section 613 Public Safety ofc benefit increase (title 6) of the patriot act should expire? The whole of title 6 seems like a good thing to me, and I found no place where it was exempted from the expiration at the end of this year.

You all really need to read the act before you form an opinion on it. Title 6 is just a glaring example, there are a TON of examples of changes that really make sense and shouldn't be allowed to expire.
 
2005-12-22 03:56:08 PM
HappyDaddy
No. There isn't a single example of my making any comparisons between the search of Ames' house and, well, anything.

Since Ames house was searched subsequent to October 24, 2001, of course.

Remind me, what was the topic of this thread again?
 
2005-12-22 03:56:25 PM
Look, we know that it's Saudi Arabia and Iran that are trying to fix our little red wagon. Let's fix theirs first.

That done, there will be no excuse for the Patriot Act. (As though there is a good one now.)
 
2005-12-22 03:57:39 PM
Vet_Curm: But, would you not agree that his posts in this thread have amounted to "Tu Quoque" and that he realized that when he started?


I do believe that his discussion of the Ames case was an attempt at an ad hominem tu quoque argument, and because I believe he's an intelligent person I have to also believe that he knew it.

His point is valid, this has been done before.

But it has zero to do with USA PATRIOT, and the Ames case was a spy case, it had zero to do with domestic terorism.
 
2005-12-22 03:57:45 PM
"I'm going to assume you won't answer my question. I want you to explain in detail how your process of issuing a warrant would have caught and disabled the hijackers before 9/11."

Here, I'll have a stab at that.

For one thing, to request a warrant for the investigation of an individual implies that said individual is a "person of interest" in a case.

In the case of the run-up to Sept. 11, it appears that the higher-ups had little or no interest in such persons, FBI field agents' warnings notwithstanding.

Thus, the use of warrants (either issued before or after surveillance) would have indicated that the National Security team recognized a threat, and was on the ball (i.e, not merely eavesdropping on hippies PETA members and the like.)

Not a causal relationship I'll grant you, but a sign that the system might actually be doing what it is designed to do, i.e., protecting the citizenry.
 
2005-12-22 04:01:05 PM
"Look, we know that it's Saudi Arabia and Iran that are trying to fix our little red wagon. Let's fix theirs first.

That done, there will be no excuse for the Patriot Act. (As though there is a good one now.)"

Ladies and gentleman, if you're wondering why we have the leadership we have and the situation we have, look no further than the above quote. Collectively punishing citizens for their authoritarian regimes has been directly linked to an increase in terrorism. Not too hard to understand why, is it? I suppose you could kill them all, though. That would do it, right?
 
2005-12-22 04:04:00 PM
pontechango: Now I can have a good faith disagreement with you on that point. I don't think that an informed citizen can be reasonable and support Bush anymore. Too many cards have been laid on the table. Even Weaver95 has about had about enough! We have a clear overreach of executive power in the US right now, the very thing that our government was designed to prevent. No amount of evidence will pursuade the remaining Bush supporters of his incompetence and hubris. True believers will suboordinate all evidence to the principle that their leadership and its ideals are infallible. It's the same delusion that is played out in 'Downfall'. Human nature has not changed in fifty years.

Because we see things the same doesn't make those who view them from a different perspective evil.

Hell, I hate Bush with a passion, but I don't believe he's evil, I believe that he honestly feels that his policies are what's best for America. I also believe I'd be less afraid of his agenda if I did think he was evil.

HappyDaddy views anti-Bush information the same way that we view pro-bush information, to vilify him for it serves no purpose. There are blind followers, and there are those who disagree because their philosophy differs. Surely you must see the value in keeping the dialogue civil?
 
2005-12-22 04:04:03 PM
why_am_i_posting: I want you to explain in detail how your process of issuing a warrant would have caught and disabled the hijackers before 9/11.

More like WE would like our government to explain why basic intelligence didn't pick up on this high-level plot that had been in the making for FIVE YEARS.

They could have had about 50 warrants and would have CAUGHT these guys.
 
2005-12-22 04:05:54 PM
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

See, I don't consider any of the provisions of the Patriot Act to violate essential liberty nor for mere temporary safety. Ergo, much ado about nothing IMHO.
 
2005-12-22 04:06:06 PM
cryptozoophiliac:

In the case of the run-up to Sept. 11, it appears that the higher-ups had little or no interest in such persons, FBI field agents' warnings notwithstanding.

Not to mention that the Bush Administration demoted the Counterterrorism Security Group from a cabinet-level position.
 
2005-12-22 04:08:35 PM
So what's with Sensenbrenner?

AP says he is considering blocking it.
 
2005-12-22 04:10:48 PM
OralB

There are some rights that I as a citizen do not wish to give up. If you would like for me to, please explain to me how giving them up would have prevented 9/11.

Specify in the Patriot act that those rights will remain intact and the bill will pass. Simple as that.


Damn... I really wanted to buy into your assertion that a warrant would have worked, but now it feels like you are conceding my point.

It's not as simple as you want it to be. I'm asking you for ideas on how to prevent another attack and secure your liberty at the same time. Otherwise I'll assume you think that thousands of dead and significant damage to the economy of your country is no big deal.
 
2005-12-22 04:11:59 PM
colovion: See, I don't consider any of the provisions of the Patriot Act to violate essential liberty nor for mere temporary safety. Ergo, much ado about nothing IMHO.

You don't consider your privacy essential?

Your right to read what you like without being questioned by federal agents is not essential?

Your right to go where you like and communicate with whom you like without being followed, recorded and questioned is not essential?

Mind you, of these things and many more can be done without having to show any evidence of your being complicit in illegal activity.

Your idea of essential liberty is too narrow for you to have any real knowledge of the rights afforded American citizens.
 
2005-12-22 04:16:14 PM
asdfbeau

You really should think things through a bit more clearly before posting. For example, you state that section 613 should not expire. Fine, whatever. I'm sure that there are a few actual useful gems located somewhere in that law. Take interdepartmental communication, for example. I suppose that's a good thing, though I'm not really sure why they needed a whole law to talk to each other.

Passing a law that turns a formerly free nation into a mildly totalitarian police state doesn't solve anything. Any good little laws and funding projects here and there that are part of the Patriot Act can be their own bill.

There is only one solution: Scrap the whole thing, which is unconstitutional when taken as a whole, and start again.

Then again, the Patriot Act isn't about catching terrorists, it's about power. So, I guess this is a moot point. You may continue posting without thinking.
 
2005-12-22 04:17:03 PM
Back to the Senate
 
2005-12-22 04:17:18 PM
why_am_i_posting: It's not as simple as you want it to be. I'm asking you for ideas on how to prevent another attack and secure your liberty at the same time.

Liberty is more important than safety.

Our civil liberties should be maintained, even if the cost is a relatively higher risk to our safety.


Otherwise I'll assume you think that thousands of dead and significant damage to the economy of your country is no big deal.

Where in this thread has anyone implied that these things were no big deal?

Sure they're a big deal, but they aren't worth sacrificing the principles upon which our nation was founded for.

If we give up the freedoms that set us apart, WTF are we really protecting anyway?
 
2005-12-22 04:18:57 PM
Immaculate_Misconception: If we give up the freedoms that set us apart, WTF are we really protecting anyway?


Our corporate masters?

You know, the ones whose children run and hide when America needs soldiers.
 
2005-12-22 04:19:36 PM
why_am_i_posting: I'm asking you for ideas on how to prevent another attack

Stop the clandestine CIA worldwide nonsense. No more coups, no more interference with democratic elections, stop arming freedom fighters, basically quit pissing off the rest of the world with our arrogant "democracy" pushing.

And yes, that would mean either impeaching Bush/Cheney or suffering the rest of their terms and NOT electing anyone who believes we should export "democracy."

and secure your liberty at the same time.

Our liberties are secured as long as we do not allow clowns like Bush or Clinton to take steps to erode them.

I'd say that's a good start...:)
 
2005-12-22 04:25:11 PM
I would like to hear from the Fark nation how has the Patriot Act has affected you. How is your life different before the Patriot Act was signed and today? I'm not counting the effect of 9-11 had on you, but how the actual Patriot Act has changed your lives.

/I think I used affected and effect in the right places.
 
2005-12-22 04:25:37 PM
"Stop the clandestine CIA worldwide nonsense. No more coups, no more interference with democratic elections, stop arming freedom fighters, basically quit pissing off the rest of the world with our arrogant "democracy" pushing."


Hasn't really been an issue since, oh, Afghanistan.

Anyway, I'd suggest more clandestine CIA actions along the lines of search for and destroy terrorist networks. Screw the patriot act & its restrictions on our own citizens. A good offense is a good defense. I'd rather be proactive and seek these f-ckers out than be defensive & try to parry their attacks in the U.S.
 
2005-12-22 04:28:29 PM
Devin172: Hasn't really been an issue since, oh, Afghanistan.

You mean you haven't heard much about it, lately.

It's an addiction. The reasoning is:

If we're not meddling in some other country, they might turn against us, but since we do meddle, they turn against us anyway.

This has got to stop.
 
2005-12-22 04:30:09 PM
chaoscube: Take interdepartmental communication, for example. I suppose that's a good thing, though I'm not really sure why they needed a whole law to talk to each other.

The idea that information developed by an intelligence agency under the guise of national security can now be used in prosecuting domestic criminal cases that have no national security implications is one of the most contentious points of this discussion.


You really should think things through a bit more clearly before posting.

You should take your own advice.
 
2005-12-22 04:30:24 PM
Immaculate_Misconception
Hell, I hate Bush with a passion, but I don't believe he's evil, I believe that he honestly feels that his policies are what's best for America

I am in agreement with Harry G. Frankfurt's paper (republished by Princeton)
ISBN: 0-691-12294-6

He's a bullshiatter, and veritas does not even enter into consideration.
 
2005-12-22 04:34:19 PM
Team Individual: I would like to hear from the Fark nation how has the Patriot Act has affected you.

I have had to deal with an entirely new set of rules regarding the legality of certain evidence used against my clients. Many of which I believe are in contradiction to Constitutional protections.

/criminal defense attorney
 
2005-12-22 04:35:39 PM
Further Follow-up:
BREAKING NEWS House rejects a six-month extension to the Patriot Act passed in the Senate and votes for a one-month extension.


/front page of cnn.com
 
2005-12-22 04:35:52 PM
Team Individual

Not my life, but I have a library patron who was a WWII German war bride who stopped checking out ANYTHING related to Germany. She said she was afraid that the FBI would think she was a Nazi. She remembered what happened in Germany, and was afraid it would happen to HER. In AMERICA.

Two other patrons stopped coming to the Library entirely, because of the PATRIOT Act. Admittedly, one of them is a bit tinfoil-hattish, but----

Freedom is being able to read what you want, without government monitorint or interference. When a little old lady is afraid to read about her homeland, there is something wrong.
 
2005-12-22 04:35:55 PM
"I would like to hear from the Fark nation how has the Patriot Act has affected you. How is your life different before the Patriot Act was signed and today? I'm not counting the effect of 9-11 had on you, but how the actual Patriot Act has changed your lives."

It changed my opinion of American politics. Now that I know that our lawmakers will cheerfully ditch Habeas Corpus, right to trial by a jury, rules of evidence and other hallmarks of a Republic, I am increasingly inclined to believe that most of them are not qualified to wipe the asses of messrs. Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, Adams, Madison et al.
 
2005-12-22 04:36:16 PM
Gosling: VICTORY FOR OPPOSITION: Renewed for six months as opposed to permanently.
VICTORY FOR BUSH: It was at least renewed.
LOSS FOR AMERICA: It was renewed at all.



Posted from the top of thread, just wanted to repeat it at what is currently the bottom.
 
2005-12-22 04:36:54 PM
Vet_Curm: Immaculate_Misconception
Hell, I hate Bush with a passion, but I don't believe he's evil, I believe that he honestly feels that his policies are what's best for America

I am in agreement with Harry G. Frankfurt's paper (republished by Princeton)
ISBN: 0-691-12294-6

He's a bullshiatter, and veritas does not even enter into consideration.



I think we're both correct here.
 
2005-12-22 04:36:55 PM
Vet_Curm: He's a bullshiatter, and veritas does not even enter into consideration.

If I recall correctly, Frankfurt thinks bullshiat is more insidious than lying for that same reason.
 
2005-12-22 04:37:26 PM
 
2005-12-22 04:38:52 PM
darnkitten: Not my life, but I have a library patron who was a WWII German war bride who stopped checking out ANYTHING related to Germany. She said she was afraid that the FBI would think she was a Nazi. She remembered what happened in Germany, and was afraid it would happen to HER. In AMERICA.

Two other patrons stopped coming to the Library entirely, because of the PATRIOT Act. Admittedly, one of them is a bit tinfoil-hattish, but----

Freedom is being able to read what you want, without government monitorint or interference. When a little old lady is afraid to read about her homeland, there is something wrong.



*golf clap*
 
2005-12-22 04:39:47 PM
Using the PATRIOT ACT against ONLY FORIGNERS in this country would have been acceptable.
 
2005-12-22 04:40:41 PM
Team Individual

I would like to hear from the Fark nation how has the Patriot Act has affected you. How is your life different before the Patriot Act was signed and today? I'm not counting the effect of 9-11 had on you, but how the actual Patriot Act has changed your lives.

First they came for the... I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

Devin172
Anyway, I'd suggest more clandestine CIA actions along the lines of search for and destroy terrorist networks. Screw the patriot act & its restrictions on our own citizens. A good offense is a good defense. I'd rather be proactive and seek these f-ckers out than be defensive & try to parry their attacks in the U.S.

That is contrary to the very nature of the CIA. Sure, they have their purposes there, but SIGINT from the NSA and the military can root out the networks, which can be destroyed with Special Forces. What's wrong with that? The CIA has its own agenda, and it lost its private army for a reason.

A good defense != a good offense. Our 'good offense' is creating enemies worldwide. Do you really think our 100m radius of control outside Kabul is preventing terrorist attacks and training? How about our tenuous grasp on Iraq? They've all moved to Chechnya, Pakistan, and other countries. Without playing world police, we can't really stop it. We're just training the next generation of them, and engendering hate for the US. Where's the rebuilding we promised? The power? Running water? Schools? Medical care? Sure, they have it better now, dogmatically speaking, and there's no more brutal overlords, but is their day to day life really better now? Do you think we'll stick it out until it is, or will we just bail from domestic pressure and leave them to the next dictatorship?
 
2005-12-22 04:41:28 PM
True story: I live in San Diego (where some of the 9/11 terrorists were based). I was in a public library in May of 2001 and some middle eastern men in line in front of me checked out several books on commercial aircraft including one with complete specs on the 747. I know this because they were peering over it while waiting in line. I called the FBI on my cel on the spot. They could have cared less. To this day I wonder if these guys were involved.

/at least I did my part
 
2005-12-22 04:42:13 PM
The_Time_Master: Using the PATRIOT ACT against ONLY FORIGNERS in this country would have been acceptable.


And Gypsies too, right?
 
2005-12-22 04:44:09 PM
crawlspace [TotalFark]
Oh yeah, anybody remember this guy? Let me remind you; Aldrich Ames. Busted spying for the russians. Clinton authorized busting down his door and searching/arresting without a warrant.

I don't, in fact, know the details of the case; however, if the circumstances are as you are reporting them then that, too, was a gross miscarriage of justice. I'm not happy about anyone being deprived of their rights.

Your point?
 
2005-12-22 04:46:40 PM
Theaetetus
1 month, not six [pops]

Now, another Senate vote is required.

Rep. Sensenbrenner(R) Wisconsin, must be wishing for warmest holiday regards from his colleagues in the Senate.
 
2005-12-22 04:47:23 PM
That Patriot Act is the worst ever . . . just the other day it came over to my house, shot my dog, and then began having sex with my wife. wtf!!! What about MY civil liberties!!!!
 
2005-12-22 04:49:40 PM
Here's my political cartoon on the topic of the PATRIOT Act:



This one was brewin' for quite a while before I actually finished drawing it.
 
2005-12-22 04:52:08 PM
Immaculate_Misconception

Apologies for going a bit overboard on the indignation. Got carried away.
 
2005-12-22 04:52:37 PM
savonola, thats funny. I have a similar story: I am in San Diego also (North County), and after 9/11 my friend saw an airport catering truck driving around in Valley Center. He followed the truck to Lake Wolford and called the FBI. They didn't care/nothing happened. (For those not from 'round here: There is zero reason for a catering truck to be anywhere near this area - airport is 40 miles and a world away)
 
2005-12-22 04:53:34 PM
pontechango
If I recall correctly, Frankfurt thinks bullshiat is more insidious than lying for that same reason.

True, and I agree with him.
 
2005-12-22 04:56:06 PM
Aw, hell Durang, that Patriot Act has been having sex w/your wife for years now. We just all thought you were OK with that. Sorry about the dog though....
 
2005-12-22 04:56:24 PM
darnkitten: Apologies for going a bit overboard on the indignation. Got carried away.


Hell, I didn't think so.

I found your story quite poignant.
 
2005-12-22 04:57:06 PM
Heh, I loved how you answered the question in regards to warrants on 9/11, cryptozoophiliac, and no one even touched it.

I agree with you whole heartedly, it would have meant that the people in charge actually cared. Listen to nearly any interview with Richard Clarke, he would go in and talk to the president and tell them something is coming and the administration just didn't care.

/adjusts tinfoil hat.
//Second time I've mentioned Clarke today.
 
2005-12-22 04:58:22 PM
whyarefartslumpy

My experience was the El Cajon branch library. This was before 9/11. I imagine that their reaction would have been quite different six months later. I do not know why but to this day I feel residual guilt over this. However, I really do not know what more I could have done.
 
2005-12-22 04:59:15 PM
whyarefartslumpy,

There is an airport in Valley Center, (I live there) but he was in the completely wrong area. The airport is down lilac, and it is a little private airport that the rich folks use, nothing commercial at all.
 
2005-12-22 05:02:17 PM
Immaculate_Misconception said:
Hell, I hate Bush with a passion, but I don't believe he's evil, I believe that he honestly feels that his policies are what's best for America. I also believe I'd be less afraid of his agenda if I did think he was evil.

Ditto. I don't think he's really evil either, I just think he's so stupid, he's incapable of distinguishing between "helping others" and "helping himself".

20+ years of continuous overindulgence in booze and and cocaine'll do that to ya. I'll bet his brain resembles a Hostess Snowball soaked in rum.
 
2005-12-22 05:04:02 PM
Immaculate_Misconception & Vet_Curm: Vet_Curm: But, would you not agree that his posts in this thread have amounted to "Tu Quoque" and that he realized that when he started?

I do believe that his discussion of the Ames case was an attempt at an ad hominem tu quoque argument, and because I believe he's an intelligent person I have to also believe that he knew it.

His point is valid, this has been done before.

But it has zero to do with USA PATRIOT, and the Ames case was a spy case, it had zero to do with domestic terorism.


I didn't raise the issue of the Ames search. I didn't compare it to anything. All I did was point out pontechango's error when he said that the assertion that there was a warrantless search of Ames' house was "[m]ore wacko Republican Bullshiat." It isn't my fault that it took multiple posts and a couple of hours for him to realize and admit the mistake.
 
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